Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[HalleluYAH]

Nope i cant ... The same as you can not show he didn't..... The questions remains why would Jesus invite one and not the other? and any answer will be considered a presumption...

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Nope i cant ... The same as you can not show he didn't..... The questions remains why would Jesus invite one and not the other? and any answer will be considered a presumption...

John 20:27 clearly says that Thomas touched Jesus.
Clearly.
Clearly
CLEARLY!!!!!

 

[JLB]

Nope i cant ... The same as you can not show he didn't..... The questions remains why would Jesus invite one and not the other? and any answer will be considered a presumption...

So why do you entertain presumption in light of the truth.

Here is the Truth...

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[JLB]

John 20:27 clearly says that Thomas touched Jesus.
Clearly.
Clearly
CLEARLY!!!!!

Your joking right?

John doesn't clearly say Thomas touched Jesus.

27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

Jesus invited him to touch Him...

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Because Thomas saw Him, not touched Him, but saw Him.... As the next verse explains CLEARLY!!!

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:27-29


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your joking right?

John doesn't clearly say Thomas touched Jesus.

27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

Jesus invited him to touch Him...

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Because Thomas saw Him, not touched Him, but saw Him.... As the next verse explains CLEARLY!!!

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:27-29


JLB

No, Jesus did not invite him, Jesus told him.
If I was face to face with Jesus and he told me to do something, I would do it.
How about you?

 

[Sinthesis]

John 20:27 clearly says that Thomas touched Jesus.
Clearly.
Clearly
CLEARLY!!!!!

Yes, but not in the same way, or meaning of the word 'touch'. Jesus doesn't even use the same word with Thomas in John 20:27 as He does with Mary in John 20:17. Look at how G680 is used throughout scripture. Jesus doesn't want Mary to rely on His physicality, or physical presence, for spiritual healing or guidance because the plan is that once Jesus ascends to the Father, He will send the Comforter to that purpose. Yet it was fine for Thomas to use his senses to confirm Jesus' physical presence as proof of His physical resurrection, though clearly not necessary for the vast majority of believers who accept the resurrection on faith. It would be wrong to think that because Jesus is not physically present He cannot be our King.

 

[Drew]

It would be wrong to think that because Jesus is not physically present He cannot be our King.

Agreed. Ceasar was not present to the people of 1st century Palestine yet he was very much their King. And, in Daniel 7, the son of man character - with whom Jesus identifies Himself to Caiaphus - is raised to heaven but still given all the nations on earth to rule.

 

[reba]

So why do you entertain presumption in light of the truth.

Here is the Truth...

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

No JLB you assume Thomas did not touch Him... I assume he did... we both are assuming... so the questions is back at you ....So why do you entertain presumption in light of the truth.

 

[HalleluYAH]

Have you guys ever considered that God is in a different dimension from the one that we are in?

Have you also ever considered that those who are with Him have mass (quantity of matter which a body contains), although it’s not flesh?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Have you guys ever considered that God is in a different dimension from the one that we are in?

Have you also ever considered that those who are with Him have mass (quantity of matter which a body contains), although it’s not flesh?

Oh, that's deep.
Please explain.

 

[Drew]

Returning to the matter of Jesus telling Caiaphus that Caiaphus will see Him "coming on the clouds". Some of you - perhaps most of you - think this is a reference to Jesus' return, which has obviously yet to happen. I think Jesus is drawing on the Daniel 7 image - very well known to the Jews of Jesus' day - of a "son of man" character who is raised to heaven on the clouds, shares a throne with God, and is given the world to rule.

Let's suppose we consider Caiaphus' reaction and see which of these possibilities makes more sense:

Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Let's be clear: Caiaphus certainly does not expect Jesus to rise from the dead after crucifixion. And therefore, he has no concept whatsoever of Jesus returning to earth in a so-called 'second coming". It makes no sense whatsoever that Caiaphus interprets Jesus as making a second coming claim.

What does make sense, of course, is that Caiaphus understands Jesus as claiming co-divinity with God precisely because Caiaphus knows the Daniel 7 allusion and, as a monotheistic Jew, would consider the implied divinity claim of Jesus as blasphemy.

Good enough for Caiaphus, good enough for me - Jesus claim to come "on the clouds" is a clear invocation of the Daniel 7 image of a son of man character sharing God's throne.

We need to study scripture like historians; when faced with competing possible interpretations, we need to determine which one makes better sense of other, related things. And would be more telling than the reaction of the high priest to the very statement we are disputing?

 

[HalleluYAH]

Oh, that's deep.
Please explain.

Not deep at all, just common sense; however, I cannot document it for you. That’s why I said, “considered”. Perhaps, if you asked our Heavenly Father, He will give you the answer.

 

[Free]

646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding."

I gave you the Strongs "Word studies" It means to leave from a previous standing.

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

Since it's a female noun, it can't tell you what it's departing from. They departed (Apostasia) from Christ Teachings. That would be to leave the truth.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away". The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

I gave you the compound words that make up the Word, and none mean leave the truth on their own without the Article, or following Male noun.

I gave the Strong Word study.

The Holy Spirit did not use the Word that way in Hebrews Chapter 6, and it should have been a verb in Thess to get it to say what you want.

The Word was translated Departure before the KJV. Greek secular scholars say it means to depart from.

Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, LL. D., (Doctor of Laws), a noted Greek scholar, New Testament translator, Greek word-study author and professor, adds further contextual support for taking apostasia as a physical departure. He notes apostasia of which Paul is speaking (verse 3), precedes the revelation of antichrist in his true identity, and that which holds him back (verse 6) also precedes his revelation. The apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (verse 3) is vitally connected with verse 7, He who holds back the same event. Dr. Wuest is driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia in verse 3 refers to the removal of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord (Second Coming), and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

These Greek Scholars must be wrong. Because if they are not wrong, then there is a rapture before the Son of Perdition is revealed.
The KJV changed the Word to Falling Away, which is still correct if you remember we are being gathered together by the Lord Jesus as the main topic of the Article.

Dr. Allan A. MacRae, Ph.D., a noted Greek scholar and translator, and president of theology schools, speaks of the striking parallel between verse 3 of 2 Thess 2, and verses 7-8. Verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of lawlessness. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that lawless one be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the "man of sin."

Since you don't want to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then you just have to say your right, and everyone else is Wrong. You have to misuse a Greek Female noun, which means to depart from, and can't in the Greek define on it's own what it departed from, you have to just forget the differences in the 3 Greek Nouns, and ignore them. Have at it, I won't though.

Tyndal: 1534
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion
(2Th 2:3)

Geneva 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

Web
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Mike.

The context disagrees with you as I pointed out and which you didn't address.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Ah, but you see, HIS BREAD, HIS WORD, is meant to be BROKEN apart amongst us, and shared, passed around.

That's how part of how He Works.

Do you see the problem?.

Some people have the gift of prophecy and some have the gift to interpret prophecy.

Everyone likes to think because they read scripture they automatically have these gifts when they dont, and all it does is corrupt the word.

The spirit gives who its wants, what gifts , to who it wants. You dont choose.

If only the true people with specific gifts opened there mouths, there would be no division and debate. Look at the thousands of theorys. Choose your book from the thousands of prophecy interpretations.

Everything is pointless. Some people are wasting there time.

 

[Brother Mike]

The context disagrees with you as I pointed out and which you didn't address.

I quoted two Greek Scholars and Greek Female nouns can not by themselves define their meaning. This is why we have Male Nouns and the subject of the Article.

Also Greek Word's are mostly made of other compound Greek Words. Nothing in Apostasia denotes falling from truth or Apostasy. If it did mean to Fall away from truth, in which case it would need to be one of the 4 Greek Verbs, then it would still need something in he Article to tell us what truth was being left. Paul never gave any statement in the article about anyone leaving the truth.

If you use Apostasia to leave the truth, then it would have to be followed from what it was leaving from which would be the truth itself.

As I said.

Door is a Greek Female noun, but what door? The door to the Greak Hall, Male noun. We still don't know what door though if there are several ways into the Great hall.

To leave a previous standing such as used in Acts as they left Moses, then we know they left Moses being the Male noun that followed.

If we attempt to translate it with the Greek title Son of perdition, then there must be a leaving and falling away from the Son of perdition first. That can't be, because the topic of the Article is the Gather together by the Lord Jesus and departing with him.

I can not explain it any more simpler, or I don't have the ability. If you just want to change it into a English noun like Apostasy, or just say it's a Greek Verb, and make it mean what you want, then have at that. Join the crowd here as there seems to be many takes on the end, and not just Post and pre trib debates.



Mike.

 

[smaller]

Do you see the problem?.
Some people have the gift of prophecy and some have the gift to interpret prophecy.
Everyone likes to think because they read scripture they automatically have these gifts when they dont, and all it does is corrupt the word.

I see it quite clearly. It's the foundation of the Gospel. Why would we not expect to see the problem. That is a Divine Revealing.

The spirit gives who its wants, what gifts , to who it wants. You dont choose.Thats if you believe Paul. I dont even know who i believe anymore, including Paul.

See previous. The problem is universal to both man and creation. That's why we roll up our Gospel sleeves and study the scriptures, and pray to understand. Maybe even to see His Wisdom in all things.

If only the true people with specific gifts opened there mouths, there would be no division and debate. Look at the thousands of theorys. Choose your book from the thousands of prophecy interpretations.

Everything is pointless. Some people are wasting there time.

God in Christ does Hear the groaning of His people and yes, He does also judge. That, His Judgments, are the basis of Revelation. If we want to understand "the end" as it pertains to the Gospel, we should look at ALL the problems that will be eliminated along the trails of troubles, because THERE is where He Will Strike.

Confusions and divisions in the churches is a big big message.

And yes, He has also delivered very certain gifts, not only to some, but to all who have called upon Him.

 

[smaller]

Have you guys ever considered that God is in a different dimension from the one that we are in?

Have you also ever considered that those who are with Him have mass (quantity of matter which a body contains), although it’s not flesh?

There are no forms of conventional physics to measure God, as A Spirit. And there probably never will be. Make that, never will be.

 

[JLB]

No, Jesus did not invite him, Jesus told him.
If I was face to face with Jesus and he told me to do something, I would do it.
How about you?

To Reba and Rollo -

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Jesus didn't say, because you have touched Me, but rather, because you have seen Me and believed...

Do you believe Jesus lied?

Here is what the scripture says.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

This account from Acts holds the key.

The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3

until the day in which He was taken up...

What is the day He was taken up?

I say the Day He was taken up, is described here in Acts 1:9-11, and not some time before.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

I believe this account in Acts, describes when He was taken up to Heaven, and not some time before.


I believe Jesus will come and appear a second time, in like manner as His people saw Him go.


JLB

 

[Drew]

If you all spent the amount of energy on here acturally talking with God, and not about him , debating your theorys, he might just give you some wisdom. Just saying.

It certainly is true that, to varying degrees, many of us have stepped over the line and transitioned from mutually edifying interaction to mudslinging. I realize it may be tiresome for some to behold, but getting the theology right really does matter. It matters because in surprisingly many cases, there is a clear link from one's theology to how we actually live out our lives. For example, if one believes the kingdom of God is not yet here yet - as many, perhaps most, seem to think (erroneously, in my view) - one may be inclined to withdraw from efforts to transform this world and all its institutions to conform with kingdom principles.

 

[HalleluYAH]

There are no forms of conventional physics to measure God, as A Spirit. And there probably never will be. Make that, never will be.

Man, no matter how intellectually superior he may be among other men, is a rank amateur compared to God. That’s why man always, always has to keep updating his so called conclusions.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.