Is the Trinity biblical? Is Jesus really God?

[jaybird]

We should also consider Paul's deeper explanation of the Shem:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Compare: Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Both are in the context of other gods.

Paul is such a deep thinker. i dont see the Shema stated there but the way Paul writes maybe thats what he is referring to.

 

[jaybird]

Jesus was tempted in his humanity, not his Divinity. Jesus is not God the Father, He's God the Son.

in His humanity He was still 100% Most High, according to the doctrine. so does this mean only part of Jesus was tempted?

 

[chessman]

in His humanity He was still 100% Most High, according to the doctrine.

That’s incorrect. Indicating that you do NOT know what the Trinity doctrine actually states. Really, you should understand the doctrine before you disagree with it.

so does this mean only part of Jesus was tempted?

The Devil did the tempting.
The Holy Spirit led Jesus (not a part of Jesus) to be tempted by the Devil.
Jesus (not a part of Jesus) responded by the spoken Word of God, out of His mouth “through the mouth of God” with“You shall not put the Lord your God to the test”
There is nothing stated about a ‘part of Jesus’ being tempted. What’s demonstrated is that Jesus’ mouth is .... you guessed it, the mouth of God.

Then Jesus was led-up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil. And having come to Him, the one tempting said to Him, “If You are God’s Son , say that these stones should become loaves-of-bread”. But the One, having responded, said, “It has been written [in Deut 8:3]: ‘Mankind shall live not on bread alone, but on every word proceeding-out through the mouth of God’” Jesus said to him, “Again, it has been written: ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test’” [Deut 6:16].​

Matthew 4:1,3-4,7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 4:1,3-4,7&version=DLNT

 

[sunfly]

This talk should be in community of relationship one to the other as redeemed in Christ. I'll just add that my answer is, Jesus was really God. I'm a Bible believing Christian and as that, the Bible tells me so and so I believe it is truth.
Three separate powers in Heaven? On that one I can't comment as such.
Be kind to one another. It's just an opinion.

 

[jaybird]

That’s incorrect. Indicating that you do NOT know what the Trinity doctrine actually states. Really, you should understand the doctrine before you disagree with it.

i thought th e doctrine says Jesus was 100% man and 100% Most High, this is incorrect?

 

[chessman]

i thought th e doctrine says Jesus was 100% man and 100% Most High, this is incorrect?

It’s a very common mistake. Even among people that claim to be Trinitarian, but yes that’s incorrect.

Jesus (the Son of God) is truly God and truly man (the Son of man). God with us.

 

[chessman]

i thought th e doctrine says Jesus was 100% man and 100% Most High, this is incorrect?

Are you going to answer my question; “who do you think is being worshiped in the Rev 7:11-12? Simple question.

And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Praise and glory, and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”​

Revelation 7:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:11-12&version=LEB

 

[jaybird]

It’s a very common mistake. Even among people that claim to be Trinitarian, but yes that’s incorrect.

your the expert not me, all i know on the doctrine is what i have been told by you guys.

Jesus (the Son of God) is truly God and truly man (the Son of man). God with us.

whats the difference? that sounds the same.

Are you going to answer my question; “who do you think is being worshiped in the Rev 7:11-12? Simple question.

And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Praise and glory, and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”
Revelation 7:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:11-12&version=LEB

i wouldnt say its one way or another, Revo in my opinion is not a book intended to make creeds and doctrines, its prophetic, symbolic, metaphoric.

 

[chessman]

all i know on the doctrine is what i have been told by you guys.

Whoever told you that Jesus is 100% God neglects The Father being truly God and The Holy Spirit being truly God. Or they don’t know math. Or both. No creed says Jesus is 100% God.

whats the difference? that sounds the same.

It’s not.

Revo in my opinion is not a book intended to make creeds and doctrines, its prophetic, symbolic, metaphoric.

Which books are intended to make creeds and doctrines then in your opinion?

Pick one, I will show you the Trinty in it. Right after you answer my question about Rev 7:11-12 (not the whole Revelation). Which, BTW, it’s called Revelation because it reveals Christ!

 

[Runner]

Are you aware that the Jehovah’s Witness teach that Jesus was “created”. And they do so without any Biblical support (obviously) other than Texts that say Jesus is God’s “begotten” Son.

The JW's teach, with pretty much irrefutable logic, that as the "only begotten" Son of God, Jesus was God's first "creation." I simply refer to Jesus as "begotten," although I see no problem with this aspect of the JW's theology. (Again: I am not a JW and am not promoting the denomination; this is simply one issue where I believe they have reached the correct conclusion. My theology overlaps with many other denominations on other issues.)

As a Trinitarian, you are forced to hold that (1) Jesus was "begotten" without being "created," and (2) even though Jesus was "begotten," there was never a moment when He did not co-exist with the Father. Trinitarians call these "mysteries." Non-Trinitarians call them "unintelligible nonsense." I choose not to put my faith in unintelligible nonsense. I don't believe God deals in unintelligible nonsense.

Get back to us when you have a cogent analysis of the distinction between "begotten" and "created" and how something can be begotten but eternally co-exist with that which begat it. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[chessman]

Trinitarians call these "mysteries." Non-Trinitarians call them "unintelligible nonsense." I choose not to put my faith in unintelligible nonsense.

I put my faith in the Word (of God).

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[jaybird]

Which books are intended to make creeds and doctrines then one your opinion?

Pick one, I will show you the Trinty in it. Right after you answer my question about Rev 7:11-12 (not the whole Revelation). Which, BTW, it’s called Revelation because it reveals Christ!

pick a book other than Rev if you dont mind. have you never noticed that the book reads quite a bit different than most?

 

[chessman]

pick a book other than Rev if you dont mind. have you never noticed that the book reads quite a bit different than most?

In places, sure. But the passage I asked you about is clear. It’s a simple question.

Who are the angels worshipping in this passage. Here, I’ll underline it for you:

And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Praise and glory, and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”​

Revelation 7:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:11-12&version=LEB

 

[Free]

Whoever told you that Jesus is 100% God neglects The Father being truly God and The Holy Spirit being truly God. Or they don’t know math. Or both. No creed says Jesus is 100% God.

That is just semantics. When people say Jesus is 100% God, they don't mean that God is Jesus, they simply mean that Jesus is truly/fully God, just as he was truly/fully man. Having said that, any idea of percentages should be discarded as it doesn't really make sense.

 

[jaybird]

In places, sure. But the passage I asked you about is clear. It’s a simple question.

Who are the angels worshipping in this passage. Here, I’ll underline it for you:

And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Praise and glory, and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”​

Revelation 7:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:11-12&version=LEB

guess not.
they are worshiping the Most High?

 

[jaybird]

That is just semantics. When people say Jesus is 100% God, they don't mean that God is Jesus, they simply mean that Jesus is truly/fully God, just as he was truly/fully man. Having said that, any idea of percentages should be discarded as it doesn't really make sense.

i will ask you the same i asked chess if you dont mind.
when Jesus was tempted, was the Most High tempted?

 

[chessman]

they are worshiping the Most High?

They were worshipping the Lamb of God:

After these things I saw, and behold— there was a great multitude (which, no one was able to number it) from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, having been clothed-with white robes, and palm-branches in their hands.
...
Because the Lamb at the center of the throne will shepherd them, and guide them to springs of the waters of life. And God will wipe-away every tear from their eyes”.​

Revelation 7:9,17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:9,17&version=DLNT
Because the Lamb will shepherd them and guide them and wipe-away every tear from their eyes.

 

[jaybird]

They were worshipping the Lamb of God:

After these things I saw, and behold— there was a great multitude (which, no one was able to number it) from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, having been clothed-with white robes, and palm-branches in their hands.
...
Because the Lamb at the center of the throne will shepherd them, and guide them to springs of the waters of life. And God will wipe-away every tear from their eyes”.​

Revelation 7:9,17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 7:9,17&version=DLNT
Because the Lamb will shepherd them and guide them and wipe-away every tear from their eyes.

ok, i dont see it but like i said im not an expert on revelation.

 

[Free]

i will ask you the same i asked chess if you dont mind.
when Jesus was tempted, was the Most High tempted?

His human nature was tempted, not his divine nature.

 

[chessman]

ok, i dont see it but like i said im not an expert on revelation.

Okay, I appreciate the reply, interaction and honesty. So, as promised here's the main point of the Trinity from another Book (other than The Revelation of Christ Jesus, The Son of God, The Lamb of God, The Word of God):
[But just to show there's no ambiguity in Rev 7:11-12, I'll bold and underline who it is that the angels are worshiping to make it easier to see:]

Revelation 7:10-17Lexham English Bible (LEB)
10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God
who is seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”​

11 And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

“Amen! Praise and glory,
and wisdom and thanksgiving,
and honor and power and strength
be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”​

13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are dressed in the white robes—who are they, and from where have they come?” 14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,

“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation,
and have washed their robes
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Because of this, they are before the throne of God,
and they serve him day and night in his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will not be hungry any longer or be thirsty any longer,
nor will the sun ever beat down on them, nor any heat,
17 because the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them
and will lead them to springs of living waters,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.​

they are worshiping the Most High?

Correct! The Lamb!

pick a book other than Rev if you dont mind.

Okay, I pick Deuteronomy, in which appears the Shema (morning and bedtime prayer). To which Jesus (The Lamb) refers to at least 11 times such as when He says:

Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus says to him, “Go-away, Satan! For it has been written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only’” [Deut 6:13].​

Deuteronomy 6:13-15 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

13 “You shall fear Yahweh your God, and you shall serve him, and by his name you shall swear. 14 You shall not go after other gods from the gods of the peoples who are all around you, 15 for Yahweh your God is a jealous God in your midst, so that the anger of Yahweh your God would be kindled, and he would destroy you from the face of the earth.

​