Discussion in 'End Times' started by thesaintman, May 29, 2016.
You haven't demonstrated from Scripture that 'the Lake of Fire is the same Cloud of Fire that descended upon Mt Sinai'.
Why do I need to demonstrated it for you? Are you unfamiliar with the story of the Exodus and how the Lord descended upon the mountain in a cloud of fire?
Do you not know the scripture that says God is a consuming fire?
Are you familiar with how the Glory of the Lord appeared at the dedication of Solomon's temple?
Do you know the story of the prophet Elijah were he challenged the prophets of Baal? And the fire came down and consumed them?
What do I need to demonstrate for you?
I'll answer your question ezrider. I don't believe that the lake of fire and the fire that Moses saw in the bush, the cloud that Israel followed etc. is not the same. Why? Because the lake of fire is the terrible fire of judgment, whereas the cloud that appeared on Mt. Sinai was the cloud of presence and a delight.
Moses and Aron delighted to see the cloud over the tent of meeting, and the cloud of fire to lead Israel thru the wilderness. The lake of fire is certainly not a delight to anyone because it represents death and separation from the God who really wanted the world to be saved, not destroyed.
The fear that you mention is because God warned Israel not to touch the mountain or go up.
Of course I know this information, but it is a mighty leap of faith into the unknown to equate, say, 'Our God is a consuming fire' (Heb 12:29) with the Lake of Fire being the same Cloud of Fire that descended upon Mt Sinai.
Heb 12:28-29 (NIV) states: 'Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”
The Hebrews' passage refers back to Deut 4:24; 9:3 where God is identified as a 'consuming fire'. In Hebrews, the readers are warned to worship God 'with reverence and awe'. There is nothing special about the Hebrew of Deut and Greek of Hebrews. It's a fire that consumes and destroys. The Israelites were warned in Deut 4:24 against idolatry because God is a 'jealous God' and doesn't share his glory with useless idols.
In Deut 9:3, it is the God 'who is a consuming fire' who goes ahead of the Israelites in the Promised Land to subdue and destroy their enemies. Here God's wrath is demonstrated against those who oppose him.
There is no leap of content here to satisfy your claim that the Lake of Fire equates with the Cloud of Fire that descended on Mt Sinai. IMO, you need to demonstrate your theology from Scripture. After all, this is a Christian forum that promotes the view that we should support our theological claims with Scripture.
See also: What does it mean that God is a consuming fire? - Got Questions
Why would I consider something like this when I have already done an extensive search on the subject to know they are not the same. Considering certain things only draws one to their own conclusions when actual facts are not presented.
This is my study:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam
The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.
Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.
God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
If you would have read this more carefully you would see that I already said death and hell per scripture you just gave. Meaning once death and hell are cast into the lake of fire there will be no more physical death and no need for a grave anymore after Gods final judgement.
First death is physical being laid in a grave. Second death is death itself and the grave (hell).
Oh Ye of little faith. If you only had the faith of a mustard seed......
Do you think you can learn about the Glory of the Lord from the words of a book? For the Righteousness of God is revealed by Faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Thank you Chopper for at least giving your reasons for disagreeing. I mean no disrespect, but your response almost seems rather silly to me.
"Why? Because the lake of fire is the terrible fire of judgment, whereas the cloud that appeared on Mt. Sinai was the cloud of presence and a delight."
The cloud that appeared on Mt Sinai was a cloud of presence and a delight? Does this scripture describe a delightful presence?
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Now as it written in the prophets of old, come and let us reason together.
If the scripture tells us the Cloud of Fire that came upon Mt Sinai is described as burning with fire, unto blackness, and darkness and tempest; And Moses described it a sight so terrible. What could it possible have in similarity to the Lake of Fire?
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
The blackness and darkness reserved for those Jude identifies here is the Lake of Fire. Beginning to see the similarities yet? Both the Cloud that descended upon the mount and the Lake of Fire are both described as being a burning fire, unto blackness and darkness and tempest. And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. So terrible was the sight I wonder where you saw the delight?
"Why? Because the lake of fire is the terrible fire of judgment, whereas the cloud that appeared on Mt. Sinai was the cloud of presence and a delight."
Because the Lake of Fire is the terrible fire of Judgement; and yet your saying the Cloud the led them was not a cloud of judgement? The scripture says Pharaoh was a servant of God, raised up so the that the Lord might make his judgement known.
When you read the book of Revelation, you find the Lake of Fire, but you also have the seven trumpets and the seven vials filled with the seven plagues. In the book of Exodus, you find the Cloud of Fire. A Cloud by day and a Fire by night. In the Judgement of Egypt, there were seven trumpets and seven vials filled with the seven plagues.
Moses was the trumpet who spoke the word of the Lord to Pharaoh, and the angel of the Lord poured out their vile containing the plagues. The seventh and final plague, was the death of the firstborn.
Moses described the terrible sight that was the Cloud descending upon Mt Sinai as a mountain burning with fire and darkness and tempest. John describes the terrible sight that is the Lake of Fire with darkness and tempest. Just too many similarities to ignore it and too many similarities for me to deny. Moses and John were both describing the same thing: They were describing the Glory of the Lord.
ALL Scripture (words written in 66 books) is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16 NIV).
The righteousness of God is revealed in Scripture (Gen 18:25 NIV).
While the most common Old Testament word for just means ‘straight,’ and the New Testament word means ‘equal,’ in a moral sense they both mean ‘right.’ When we say that God is just, we are saying that He always does what is right, what should be done, and that He does it consistently, without partiality or prejudice. The word just and the word righteous are identical in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Sometimes the translators render the original word ‘just’ and other times ‘righteous’ with no apparent reason (cf. Nehemiah 9:8 and 9:33 where the same word is used). But whichever word they use, it means essentially the same thing. It has to do with God’s actions. They are always right and fair.
God’s righteousness (or justice) is the natural expression of His holiness. If He is infinitely pure, then He must be opposed to all sin, and that opposition to sin must be demonstrated in His treatment of His creatures. When we read that God is righteous or just, we are being assured that His actions toward us are in perfect agreement with His holy nature (Richard Strauss).
How can the lake of fire represent death when death itself is cast into the lake?
Where does this doctrine come from that says death is separation from God? Do you have something from the scripture to support this? The purpose given for the the Death and Resurrection of Christ was so the He might be Lord of both the living and the dead.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I have no argument with this, and I'm not really sure what point your trying to make by it. But I did like the way you used caps to identify ALL. ALL the words may very well be inspired or God-breathed. But that is not the point; the question is if you believe those words to be true or not.
Now if ALL the words of the book were God-breathed, then do believe the Lord can shut up those words, so that you can't understand them? What do you do when the words of the book are sealed?
Did you know that the words of the book are sealed? And that only Christ is worthy to loosen the seals thereof?
The Righteousness of God is NOT revealed in the scriptures. The righteousness of the Law and the righteousness that comes by the Law is revealed in the scriptures. But the righteousness that comes by Faith is not found in the words of a book. The righteousness that come by the law does not define the righteousness of the Lord; it blinds you to the righteousness of the Lord.
Who is Richard Struass that I should turn to him? Shall I consult the wisdom of men to define the righteousness of God for me? I have only one teacher, and I can tell you that what I have shared about the lake of fire came not from flesh and blood, nor was is taught to me by another. But has only been revealed through Faith.
But how should you expect this to be revealed to you when you will not receive it in Faith. You already mentioned in one of your posts that this was a mighty leap of faith, and that you couldn't accept it unless you had proof. You needed evidence first. Is that the way you think Faith works?
You and I view spiritual things so differently, Just this opening statement from you, puts my Christ's love that is in me to not pay any attention to your negativism. These are your words...."your response almost seems rather silly to me."
A Google search would have found that information quickly, which is what I've just done. Here it is:
2 Thess 1:8-9 (NIV), 'He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might'.
Scripture please! Why don't you back up your statements with Scripture?
That's not what the Scriptures teach that the righteousness of God is not revealed in Scripture:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” (Rom 1:16-17 NIV)
So you have only one teacher? What does the Scripture say?
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up (Eph 4:11-12 NIV).
God gave human, Spirited-gifted teachers to equip Christians for the work of service. So your view of only one teacher is opposed by these verses.
However, we are to be Bereans in our approach to human teachers:
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true (Acts 17:11 NIV).
If they had to examine Paul's teaching from the Scriptures 'every day' to check out its truthfulness, Christians have to do that with your teaching and mine. In this post I've attempted to follow Paul's instructions from Acts 17:11.
To receive what you write 'by faith' is a nighty leap of faith into the unknown for me, because of the teachings you make on this forum that are not backed by Scripture. I go to God-breathed Scripture and not to experientialism.
Yes, I have the scriptures. I could post the scriptures if I wanted too. I was going to post them; But..........
You wanted to be like the Bareans... So go search out the scriptures.
Everything I have written is backed by the scripture, you just will not receive it by faith and then go search it out for yourself as one of the Bereans. Instead you demand evidence, you want scriptural proof. Sorry, but that's not the way hearing by faith works. I could give you the scripture reference, but the words of the book are sealed, and you wouldn't understand it because you have not received it by faith.
See, you don't need me to post the scriptures. I bet you that a Google search would have saved the Bereans a lot of time pouring over the scriptures to find out if what they heard was true. But your not even willing the hear it because it too big a leap of faith.
I'm wondering if you actually took the time to read my post and the comment I was replying to? The context of the comment was DEATH separating us from the Love of Christ.
Why I even post the scripture were Paul said "I am fully persuaded the neither DEATH, nor LIFE........ can separate us from the Love of Christ.
You see, I posted the scripture in that comment to back up my statement about death NOT separating us from the love of Christ, and yet you ignored it; only to insinuate a Google search would have quickly found the answer I was looking for. But it did not, because the scripture you posted does not identify DEATH as the separation.
Everlasting destruction is one part of the resurrection of Christ, the other is the resurrection to life. The resurrection to damnation, or as the prophet Daniel described it as awaking to shame and everlasting contempt.
Just to let you know....
It is your responsibility to back up your theological statements with scripture, not the reader of your statements.
If you are unable to support your theology with scripture then it will be seen as your own personal opinion and not as a view supported by scripture.
That's the way forums work.
iakov the fool
But OzSpen said we must be Bereans. The Bereans searched the scripture daily to see if what they heard was true.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The question is: are you willing to receive the word with readiness of mind. Needing proof or scripture evidence before you will believe is not having a readiness of mind in Faith. As Oz said, you have Google, what's stopping you from searching? Your unbelief?
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