is there a lake of fire ?

[Butch5]

Cool. I got this from my NDE studies. Bill Wiese, for example, specifically says he viewed the temporary lake of fire. It complies with my experience, in that I know (for myself) that there are people already in Hell, and they are already suffering (various forms of torture, not just fire). Some people believe that no-one is in Hell yet, at least not in torment. I didn't see a lake of fire, but I did see people suffering.

I don't believe anyone is in Gehenna at this time because the judgment hasn't taken place. Concerning "Hell," I don't believe there is a place that most consider Hell. That is a place where the dead are somehow alive and being tormented. That idea is counter to what the Scriptures teach. It was a popular belief among the Greeks at the time the NT was written. Plato was one of the main teachers of the idea that man is a spirit that can live apart from the body. This teaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

 

[KevinK]

I don't believe anyone is in Gehenna at this time because the judgment hasn't taken place. Concerning "Hell," I don't believe there is a place that most consider Hell. That is a place where the dead are somehow alive and being tormented. That idea is counter to what the Scriptures teach. It was a popular belief among the Greeks at the time the NT was written. Plato was one of the main teachers of the idea that man is a spirit that can live apart from the body. This teaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

I don't think anyone's in Gehenna yet, either. Some are in a temporary Hell, and some of these are in a small lake of fire. This is the first death. After Judgment, all of the temp Hell will be thrown into the big lake of fire, Gehenna. This is the second death.

 

[Butch5]

I don't think anyone's in Gehenna yet, either. Some are in a temporary Hell, and some of these are in a small lake of fire. This is the first death. After Judgment, all of the temp Hell will be thrown into the big lake of fire, Gehenna. This is the second death.

The Scriptures don't tell us of multiple hells and multiple lakes of fire. IN the Scriptures there is one Gehenna and lake of fire. These are two names for the same place. The Scriptures also don't tell us people suffering prior to the judgment.

 

[KevinK]

The Scriptures don't tell us of multiple hells and multiple lakes of fire. IN the Scriptures there is one Gehenna and lake of fire. These are two names for the same place. The Scriptures also don't tell us people suffering prior to the judgment.

Exactly. My viewpoint is not scriptural.

 

[Free]

The Lake of Fire isn't a metaphor, it's Gehenna. It's also not eternal. Translators wrongly translate aionios as eternal or forever but that's not what it means.In Gehenna it is corpses that are burning not living people.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

We also know that it isn't eternal because Jeremiah said it would one day be made holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

I noticed a couple of things. First, you seem to be saying that only dead people will be thrown into gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Is that correct? Second, you appeal to Jer. 31 to show that the Lake of Fire isn't eternal. Yet, you had just given Isa. 66 to show that it will be carcases thrown into gehenna, a verse which itself states that "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

 

[Free]

The Scriptures don't tell us of multiple hells and multiple lakes of fire. IN the Scriptures there is one Gehenna and lake of fire. These are two names for the same place. The Scriptures also don't tell us people suffering prior to the judgment.

Again, you previously stated that it is only corpses that will be burned in the Lake of Fire, but here you are saying people only suffer after the judgment. Is it people or corpses that get thrown into the Lake of Fire? If corpses, just how do corpses suffer?

 

[Butch5]

I noticed a couple of things. First, you seem to be saying that only dead people will be thrown into gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Is that correct? Second, you appeal to Jer. 31 to show that the Lake of Fire isn't eternal. Yet, you had just given Isa. 66 to show that it will be carcases thrown into gehenna, a verse which itself states that "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

I'm not sure whether people will be dead or alive when thrown into Gehenna. However, I contend that they will not burn for eternity. If they are alive then they will die and the corpse will burn. What does "their worm does not die" have to do with the people? To quench a fire is to put it out. It doesn't mean it will never go out. It means it will not be put out. No one will put out the fire of Gehenna, however, that doesn't mean that it won't eventually consume all of the corpses and go out on it's own.

 

[Butch5]

Again, you previously stated that it is only corpses that will be burned in the Lake of Fire, but here you are saying people only suffer after the judgment. Is it people or corpses that get thrown into the Lake of Fire? If corpses, just how do corpses suffer?

People will suffer as punishment for their sins and eventually be cast into Gehenna. How long or what particular punishment it is I don't believe we're told.

One thing that we have to remember is that the wages of sin is death, not torment. The idea of Eternal Conscious Torment is derived from Greek philosophy. The Bible doesn't teach this idea. When the NT was written the Greeks believed that the dead were somehow conscious in an underworld. They believed that this underworld was ruled by a god they called Hades. So, as more and more Greeks became Christians and saw the word Hades in the Scriptures they simply imported their understanding of the word into the text.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly. My viewpoint is not scriptural.

OK.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Lake of Fire isn't a metaphor, it's Gehenna. It's also not eternal. Translators wrongly translate aionios as eternal or forever but that's not what it means.In Gehenna it is corpses that are burning not living people.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

We also know that it isn't eternal because Jeremiah said it would one day be made holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

Like I said, it could be a real place or just a a metaphor for where the dead that reject Christ will be cast into for scripture is silent on any particular location.

The lake of fire spoken of in Revelation 19:20; 20:10 is not Gehenna.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

 

[Butch5]

Like I said, it could be a real place or just a a metaphor for where the dead that reject Christ will be cast into for scripture is silent on any particular location.

The lake of fire spoken of in Revelation 19:20; 20:10 is not Gehenna.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

The Scriptures aren't silent on the subject. Jesus quotes from Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna. Therefore, we know that Isaiah 66 is speaking of Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would burn there. John said that the wicked would be cast into a lake of fire. The only way to reconcile these passages without conflict is that they are the same place.

However, this has gotten away from the original question, why do you say we won't see it?

 

[for_his_glory]

The Scriptures aren't silent on the subject. Jesus quotes from Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna. Therefore, we know that Isaiah 66 is speaking of Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would burn there. John said that the wicked would be cast into a lake of fire. The only way to reconcile these passages without conflict is that they are the same place.

However, this has gotten away from the original question, why do you say we won't see it?

I've already given you the scriptural references that Gehenna is a literal place here on earth outside the city of Jerusalem and is not the end time lake of fire. Rev 21 says this present heaven and earth that is sin laid will pass away as God will make heaven and earth new again so how can the lake of fire or even those things that happened in Gehenna exist on a new purified earth. This is my answer to why we who are Spiritually born-again will never see the lake of fire.

 

[Free]

Jesus warned many times of the fires of gehenna, sometimes with direct reference to the final destination of the wicked (Matt 18:9; Mark 9:43,45). He also spoke of gehenna in terms of fire (Matt 5:22; Mark 9:43), as it was a place where refuse and criminals were burned.

Putting two and two together--gehenna as the final place of the wicked and being a place of fire--we can conclude that it most likely is the Lake of Fire.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus warned many times of the fires of gehenna, sometimes with direct reference to the final destination of the wicked (Matt 18:9; Mark 9:43,45). He also spoke of gehenna in terms of fire (Matt 5:22; Mark 9:43), as it was a place where refuse and criminals were burned.

Putting two and two together--gehenna as the final place of the wicked and being a place of fire--we can conclude that it most likely is the Lake of Fire.

As I see it it would have to be. John is the only one who talks about a lake of fire. If this was something different than Gehenna then no one knew about it but John. I don't see how it could anything other than what we see throughout Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

I've already given you the scriptural references that Gehenna is a literal place here on earth outside the city of Jerusalem and is not the end time lake of fire. Rev 21 says this present heaven and earth that is sin laid will pass away as God will make heaven and earth new again so how can the lake of fire or even those things that happened in Gehenna exist on a new purified earth. This is my answer to why we who are Spiritually born-again will never see the lake of fire.

My point is that Isaiah speaks of the new heavens and new earth and he wrote that those who go up to Jerusalem would see the corpses of those who fought against God. It seems from this that Gehenna is going to be on the restored earth.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:22-24 KJV)

 

[for_his_glory]

My point is that Isaiah speaks of the new heavens and new earth and he wrote that those who go up to Jerusalem would see the corpses of those who fought against God. It seems from this that Gehenna is going to be on the restored earth.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:22-24 KJV)

Look at verse 22 as God is saying the new heavens and the new earth He will make will always forever be once He renews them in the end of days, so the same with the seed of Abraham throughout all the generations that remain faithful to God that their name will remain as being part of the first resurrection that will be with the Lord forever, Rev 20:6. Verses 23, 24 are particular to the time of Isaiah with the literal location of Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom. The lake of fire can not exist on the renewed earth for how could it be purified in order to remain on a sinless renewed earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

 

[Butch5]

Look at verse 22 as God is saying the new heavens and the new earth He will make will always forever be once He renews them in the end of days, so the same with the seed of Abraham throughout all the generations that remain faithful to God that their name will remain as being part of the first resurrection that will be with the Lord forever, Rev 20:6. Verses 23, 24 are particular to the time of Isaiah with the literal location of Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom. The lake of fire can not exist on the renewed earth for how could it be purified in order to remain on a sinless renewed earth.

Are you aware that there will be other people still on earth when Christ returns? There will be other nations during the kingdom. So, yes Gehenna can be on the new earth.

 

[Free]

Are you aware that there will be other people still on earth when Christ returns? There will be other nations during the kingdom. So, yes Gehenna can be on the new earth.

Rev. 22:15 first comes to mind.

 

[Free]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

The main problem here is that you are using one definition of "hell" to argue that the Lake of Fire cannot be hell. Most translations translate three different words as "hell," gehenna being one of them and hades being another. It's fine if you want to use hades as the sole definition of hell proper but that in no way means that gehenna is not the Lake of Fire. But I could just as well legitimately argue that hell proper is actually gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and hades should just be translated as "hades" (as the ESV does) or "grave".