is there a lake of fire ?

Discussion in 'End Times' started by thesaintman, May 29, 2016.

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  1. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    I never had a problem with the Greek definition of hell as being the grave/pit in he ground where we go to when we die, but only that of others saying Gehenna is hell or that Gehenna is the lake of fire. Gehenna is a literal place being the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום, Gai Ben-Hinnom). The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
     
  2. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Please stick to the questions. I'm trying to lay this out as clearly as possible. Do you agree that "hell" is an English translation of the Greek?
     
  3. KevinK

    KevinK Member

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    Most astute, Jim! I believe pure hydrogen also burns with an invisible flame. I like the alcohol example; I'm going to use it.
     
  4. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Yes it is, but not in the sense of it being the lake of fire that many believe it is. Have I not shown the Greek definition all along in my post!!! What is your point as all we are doing is reiterating over and over.
     
  5. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    My point is to layout my case, based on what Scripture says, and hopefully improve your understanding.

    Things we know so far:

    1. The NT was written in Greek.
    2. The English word "hell" is a translation of the Greek.
    3. That every translation shows Jesus saying the Enlglish word "hell" many times.

    Now I will begin to lay out my case.

    You have said more than once: 'Please show me the scripture that Jesus uses the word Gehenna as all I have ever read was hell or hell fire in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6".

    Do you see what you are asking? You are asking for Scripture where Jesus uses a Greek word (point 1 above) but you then appeal to the English translation of Greek (point 2 above). So of course you are not likely to see Jesus say "gehenna" in an English translation because that is a Greek word. Just as in the KJV you won't see Jesus say "hades" because it is a Greek word.

    So if we want to see if Jesus said either gehenna or hades, we look at the Greek text, not the English translation. Agreed?
     
  6. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    The Hebrew and Aramaic would be gê’ hinnom, literally the valley of Hinnom. The Greek being ɡɪˈhɛnəis (Gehenna in English) is a transliteration of the same word in the Hebrew and Aramaic. It doesn't matter what language it is written in you will not find it in any translation that says it is hell, hell fire or the end of days lake of fire. That is my point.
     
  7. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    ok
     
  8. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    For all intents and purposes, since neither of us speak koine Greek, the transliterations are all that we can look at and will suffice. So do you agree that if we want to see if Jesus used either gehenna or hades that we cannot look at the English text?
     
  9. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    In the Gospels, the word repeatedly used by Jesus is γέεννα. (gehenna)
     
  10. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    No I do not agree. Like I have said, it doesn't matter what language came about after the koine Greek, Gehenna still stands as a literal place here on earth we can find on a map and only the fires that burned there are descriptive of what Jesus taught. Gehenna (the fires only), hell, hell fire, hades are that of the literal grave/pit as death (physical and Spiritual) and hell will be thrown into the end of day lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15.
     
  11. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Only descriptive of the fires that burned there that became the grave/hell/pit for many that were cast into the fire.
     
  12. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    You really think that if Jesus used the word gehenna it would appear in the English translation?
     
  13. smaller

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    Uh, it is very likely we WILL see it:

    Revelation 14:10
    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    IF we are with the Lamb, which we all hope to be, then I'd dare say that said torment will be transpiring in our presence as well.
     
  14. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    The name of the garbage dump (gehenna) became a word used as a metaphor for Hell, the place of torment of the souls of the unrighteous.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  15. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    I would think the English translators would have put it in there as Gehenna is the English word for the Greek γέεννα and the Hebrew, Gehinnom being the Jewish analogue of hell. It's also known in the OT as the English,Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and in Hebrew "Gai Ben-Hinnom". It's not there because Jesus never used the word, but only the description of the fires that burned there as again, hell/grave/pit.
     
  16. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Did Jesus ever use the word hades?

    Let me put this another way: did Jesus ever use the Greek words for gehenna or hades?
     
  17. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    This is only speaking of those who take the mark of the beast, not those who are Christ's. This is why you need to read the whole and not just parts.

    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
     
  18. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Not the word itself as it is not found in scripture, but only the description of it being hell/grave/pit as an analogue like Gehenna is used.
     
  19. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    exactly, but for some reason Free can not see it no matter what I have posted.
     
  20. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    What about the Greek words for gehenna and hades?
     
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