Discussion in 'End Times' started by thesaintman, May 29, 2016.
No, that is not at all what is going on here. I have stated that much earlier in this thread.
I already answered that in #115
So what else is going on other then our back and forth repetitions about Gehenna?
It isn't that clear. You say that Jesus didn't say gehenna or hades, which are the English transliterations of Greek words, so I just wanted to make sure we were clear that Jesus didn't use the Greek words.
Well, I'm trying to get to that. We obviously need to make sure we are very clear on what Jesus did and did not say before I can finish making my case.
This is what Jesus said: Matthew 18:8 everlasting fire; 18:9 hell fire; Rev 20: death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
Now you can finish your case as I think we can agree with what Jesus said by those scriptures.
I'll start again with what I stated previously but updated:
Things we know so far:
1. The NT was written in Greek.
2. The English word "hell" is a translation of the Greek.
3. That every translation shows Jesus saying the Enlglish word "hell" many times.
Now I will begin to lay out my case.
You have said more than once: 'Please show me the scripture that Jesus uses the word Gehenna as all I have ever read was hell or hell fire in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6".
Do you see what you are asking? You are asking for Scripture where Jesus uses a Greek word (point 1 above) but you then appeal to the English translation of Greek (point 2 above). So of course you are not likely to see Jesus say "gehenna" in an English translation because that is a Greek word. Just as in the KJV you won't see Jesus say "hades" because it is a Greek word.
So if we want to see if Jesus used the Greek word for gehenna or hades, we must look to the Greek text. You say that you "have ever read was hell or hell fire". To know what Greek word or words are then translated into the English as "hell," as non-Greek speaking laypersons, we can use Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
When we look up "hell" in Strong's, it gives us three different Greek words that are all translated as "hell"--hades (G86), gehenna (G1067), and tartaroo (G5020). I posted that previously as did you. What Strong's also shows us is where each instance these Greek words appear. So we see that in Matt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; and Luke 12:5, all verses that you gave above, Jesus used the Greek word gehenna, which is then translated into the English as "hell," in most, if not every, translation, including the KJV. There could be other instances but I am just going by what you gave.
When we look at Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke10:15; and 16:23, we see that Jesus used the Greek word hades, which is then also translated into the English as "hell" but only in some translations, including the KJV. We also see that hades has been translated as "hell" in Rev. 6:8 and 20:13,14, in some translations, including the KJV.
So there you go. This is all stuff I have said more than once but I have reposted and summarized it here so we can see it in one post.
And then to also repeat again, since gehenna and hades refer to two very different places, it is much too confusing and erroneous for translations to translate them both as "hell". If we think of hell as a place of fire and torment, the final destination of the wicked, then it makes the most sense to keep gehenna translated as "hell," and leave hades as "Hades," which several translations do. Then we can come to the logical conclusion that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire. Again, all of this I have said previously.
It's not easy to communicate exactly what you mean in writing.
Writing is very prone to being misunderstood.
This is my whole point. Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek wordταρταρό. Since these are the English words then why are they not literally used, because they are only used in their analogue form as comparing something to something else.
Yes, it can be without a thorough explanation at times.
First, as I have clearly stated several times, many versions do use "Hades". Second, according to your line of reasoning, we must consider the entire English Bible as analogy and we really can have no idea what any of it says. Third, since the NT was written in Greek, we know that the Greek words for gehenna and hades were used. So, again according to your line of reasoning, the literal words were used. This leaves us with the originials saying one thing and the English translations saying something quite different.
My point is that your point here makes no sense. The words we read in the English Bible are simply the English words chosen by the various translators based on meaning. "Hell" is simply a word chosen because translators believe its meaning is close to what the Greek gehenna is stating. It has absolutely nothing to do with being used "literally" or "analogously".
What part of the English words Gehenna and hades do you not get...........they are English words for the Greek words as even in the Greek you will not find those two words nor do we find them in the English translations of scripture. I can not find any scripture that uses the words Gehenna or hades. Forget hell, hell fire, pit or grave. Those two words are not written in scripture. If they are please give me the scriptures as I have never read them.
I get it all just fine. I showed you in the very post you quoted that this argument you are using is very poor reasoning and erroneous. Yet you still want to repeat it without addressing what I said. That you may not see "Gehenna" or "Hades" in an English translation is completely, totally, and utterly irrelevant to the issue.
Even though I have stated many times that several versions use "Hades" (I even listed five versions), here are a couple of verses for you (I may have even given this before too):
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev. 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)
Thank you for the hades scriptures as I see you use the ESV, but I the KJV, but no matter what we prefer. It's all good. I think we have come to a stale mate and probably best that we just move on as we surly have spent a lot of time on this and think we have gone way off topic from the OP.
I just want you to know I hold no animosity against you over our discussion, but just feel it's time to move on and hope you feel the same.
God bless you Free and I do enjoy your insights
It's not a stale mate. I have shown you to be in error and it is because you do not understand biblical interpretation very well. I have shown error in your reasoning which you do not address. I don't see how you can say you enjoy my insights when it seems you do not even understand a thing I have said.
But yes, it is far past time to move on.
Where do you find that the Lake of Fire is located in "outer darkness"? The passages you quoted about outer darkness don't mention the Lake of Fire.
The second set of passages you quoted regarding hell are all the Greek word Gehenna.
Gods word doesn't change..
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The lake of fire is a place of eternal torment..
That God's word doesn't change doesn't bear on the fact that it is a different passage. As has been pointed out "aionios" doesn't mean forever.
Are you a universalist?
Separate names with a comma.