is there a lake of fire ?

[Butch5]

Are you a universalist?

Nope.

 

[for_his_glory]

Where do you find that the Lake of Fire is located in "outer darkness"? The passages you quoted about outer darkness don't mention the Lake of Fire.

The second set of passages you quoted regarding hell are all the Greek word Gehenna.

Rev 19:20; 20:10, 15 are the only scriptures that mention the lake of fire, but Jeremiah 4:4; Matthew 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30, 46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; are descriptive of the lake of fire just as all those scriptures I gave about Gehenna being used a a description of hell/pit/grave as being the fires that burned there. I have explained that in great detail. I have yet seen scripture that uses the actual word Gehenna other then descriptive of hell and hell fire and have yet had anyone show me the word Gehenna in scripture. There truly is nothing more I can say on this topic.

 

[Butch5]

Rev 19:20; 20:10, 15 are the only scriptures that mention the lake of fire, but Jeremiah 4:4; Matthew 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30, 46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; are descriptive of the lake of fire just as all those scriptures I gave about Gehenna being used a a description of hell/pit/grave as being the fires that burned there. I have explained that in great detail. I have yet seen scripture that uses the actual word Gehenna other then descriptive of hell and hell fire and have yet had anyone show me the word Gehenna in scripture. There truly is nothing more I can say on this topic.

You do realize that the NT was written in Greek, correct? The word hell is not in the Greek texts. The Greek text uses the words hades a d Gehenna.. These are the passages you posted in post 89.

"Please show me the scripture that Jesus uses the word Gehenna as all I have ever read was hell or hell fire in Matthew 5:22,29,30;10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6"

Each of these passages uses the word Gehenna. It is the translators who used the words hell or hell fire.

You keep saying that Gehenna is being used as a descriptive term. That's not what the Scriptures teach.Jesus didn't say, if your hand causes you to sin cut it off because it's better to lose your hand than be cast into a place like Gehenna. He said it was better to lose your hand than to be cast into Gehenna. It seems to me you've got the terms reversed. Gehenna is the actual place and Lake of fire is the descriptive term used to describe Gehenna.

 

[for_his_glory]

You do realize that the NT was written in Greek, correct? The word hell is not in the Greek texts. The Greek text uses the words hades a d Gehenna.. These are the passages you posted in post 89.

"Please show me the scripture that Jesus uses the word Gehenna as all I have ever read was hell or hell fire in Matthew 5:22,29,30;10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6"

Each of these passages uses the word Gehenna. It is the translators who used the words hell or hell fire.

You keep saying that Gehenna is being used as a descriptive term. That's not what the Scriptures teach.Jesus didn't say, if your hand causes you to sin cut it off because it's better to lose your hand than be cast into a place like Gehenna. He said it was better to lose your hand than to be cast into Gehenna. It seems to me you've got the terms reversed. Gehenna is the actual place and Lake of fire is the descriptive term used to describe Gehenna.

I know it was written in Greek, but most of us can only read English so that is not even the point. The point is that one needs to learn what comparative descriptions are as Gehenna being compared to hell/grave/pit as being that the burning fires there at one time became the hell/grave/pit that were cast into the fires that burned there as the worm never died for it always had fresh carcass to feed on. Gehenna is not hell, but compared to hell for only the fire that burned there.

 

[Butch5]

I know it was written in Greek, but most of us can only read English so that is not even the point. The point is that one needs to learn what comparative descriptions are as Gehenna being compared to hell/grave/pit as being that the burning fires there at one time became the hell/grave/pit that were cast into the fires that burned there as the worm never died for it always had fresh carcass to feed on. Gehenna is not hell, but compared to hell for only the fire that burned there.

My point is that what you are calling hell in those passages you posted is Gehenna. The English idea of hell as a fiery place of eternal torment doesn't exist. Jesus indicated that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, not a Gehenna like place. There is nothing in the Scriptures about Gehenna being thrown into the lake of fire, that is Hades or the grave. The Scriptures say that death and Hades or the grave would be cast into the Lake of fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, John said they would be cast into the lake of fire. Since Gehenna is not going to be cast into the lake of fire these either have to be the same place or there is a problem.

I am puzzled as to why you think Gehenna is a metaphor rather than the lake of fire being the metaphor. Gehenna is an actual location. The lake of fire is a description from a book filled with symbolism.

 

[turnorburn]

My bible reads like this..

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[Butch5]

My bible reads like this..

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

In both of those passages the word hell is translated from the word Gehenna.

 

[turnorburn]

My translation is just fine the way it is and has been for the past 400 years.. you can use the translation that works for you. How do you tell the sinner they are going to Gehenna if they don't repent? Can you give an example?

 

[Butch5]



My translation is just fine the way it is and has been for the past 400 years.. you can use the translation that works for you. How do you tell the sinner they are going to Gehenna if they don't repent? Can you give an example?

I'm not sure what you mean by, "my translation is just fine the way it is." It's translating Gehenna as hell. The problem with translating it hell is that is causes confusion. What if I said to you that the wicked were going to be burned in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom? I'll bet you wouldn't get the picture of people suffering in eternal conscious torment. That's because the Valley of the Son of Hinnom is an actual location on the surface of the earth. However, when it's translated hell people can insert what comes to their imagination.

I don't tell the sinner they're going to Gehenna. They likely wouldn't have any idea of what that meant. It's just as easy to say that the wicked will be destroyed.

 

[for_his_glory]

My point is that what you are calling hell in those passages you posted is Gehenna. The English idea of hell as a fiery place of eternal torment doesn't exist. Jesus indicated that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, not a Gehenna like place. There is nothing in the Scriptures about Gehenna being thrown into the lake of fire, that is Hades or the grave. The Scriptures say that death and Hades or the grave would be cast into the Lake of fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, John said they would be cast into the lake of fire. Since Gehenna is not going to be cast into the lake of fire these either have to be the same place or there is a problem.

I am puzzled as to why you think Gehenna is a metaphor rather than the lake of fire being the metaphor. Gehenna is an actual location. The lake of fire is a description from a book filled with symbolism.

The wicked will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:15, not cast into Gehenna. Rev 20:11-15 death and hell are cast into the lake of fire for there will be no more death or need of a grave after Gods final judgment.

If Gehenna is hell as you say then you are contradicting yourself by saying: There is nothing in the Scriptures about Gehenna being thrown into the lake of fire, that is Hades or the grave. The Scriptures say that death and Hades or the grave would be cast into the Lake of fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, John said they would be cast into the lake of fire. Since Gehenna is not going to be cast into the lake of fire these either have to be the same place or there is a problem.

Hades and hell are the same thing as some Bibles use Hades and others use hell. So make up your mind as is it Gehenna being cast into the lake of fire, or death and Hades/hell.

Just because we have no physical location of the lake of fire other than being in outer darkness where there will be continuous torment and gnashing of teeth, Matthew 13:42; Luke 13:28, does not mean it doesn't literally exist outside the Spiritual realm of God.

 

[for_his_glory]




I'm not sure what you mean by, "my translation is just fine the way it is." It's translating Gehenna as hell. The problem with translating it hell is that is causes confusion. What if I said to you that the wicked were going to be burned in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom? I'll bet you wouldn't get the picture of people suffering in eternal conscious torment. That's because the Valley of the Son of Hinnom is an actual location on the surface of the earth. However, when it's translated hell people can insert what comes to their imagination.

I don't tell the sinner they're going to Gehenna. They likely wouldn't have any idea of what that meant. It's just as easy to say that the wicked will be destroyed.

The Valley of Hinnom is an actual location on the surface of the earth as we can all agree with that, but what you are missing is that the literal place called Gehenna that is also located on a map is found in the Valley of Hinnom as it is located south of Jerusalem.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam
The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

 

[for_his_glory]

In both of those passages the word hell is translated from the word Gehenna.

There is a difference between translate and transliterate

Translate = to change from one language to another while retaining the original meaning to explain
Transliterate = to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet

Literal Gehenna you can find on a map is represented as hell/hades/Sheol/grave/pit in the description of those that were thrown in the continuous fires as the fire became their hell/grave/pit as they were consumed by the fire.

 

[turnorburn]




I'm not sure what you mean by, "my translation is just fine the way it is." It's translating Gehenna as hell. The problem with translating it hell is that is causes confusion. What if I said to you that the wicked were going to be burned in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom? I'll bet you wouldn't get the picture of people suffering in eternal conscious torment. That's because the Valley of the Son of Hinnom is an actual location on the surface of the earth. However, when it's translated hell people can insert what comes to their imagination.

I don't tell the sinner they're going to Gehenna. They likely wouldn't have any idea of what that meant. It's just as easy to say that the wicked will be destroyed.

Then your not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.. your bringing another gospel to the table..

 

[tim-from-pa]

People will suffer as punishment for their sins and eventually be cast into Gehenna. How long or what particular punishment it is I don't believe we're told.

One thing that we have to remember is that the wages of sin is death, not torment. The idea of Eternal Conscious Torment is derived from Greek philosophy. The Bible doesn't teach this idea. When the NT was written the Greeks believed that the dead were somehow conscious in an underworld. They believed that this underworld was ruled by a god they called Hades. So, as more and more Greeks became Christians and saw the word Hades in the Scriptures they simply imported their understanding of the word into the text.

For the record, I'm with you, Butch5. Eternal conscious torment is not death, but life in torment. I saw the severe error of my ways when someone in church said, "We ALL have eternal life! We all do. The question is, where are you going to spend it?" It then dawned on my in a BIG WAY that if this is true, then it contradicts the bible doctrine that "the soul that sins shall DIE". There's no consciousness in death as that's the intrinsic meaning of death: Lack of life or lack of existence, for something or someone that no longer has life has no existence. If you no longer exist (and are annihilated), then there's no pain, consciousness or suffering -- that's eternal punishment, no coming back from one's demise. I wish Christians everywhere would wake up to this pagan, filthy doctrine of ECT.

 

[Sinthesis]

I wish Christians everywhere would wake up to this pagan, filthy doctrine of ECT.

Yet you don't identify yourself as Christian?

 

[for_his_glory]

These are just a few scriptures about the lake of fire that speak about what happens to the righteous and the unrighteous on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40.
Psalms 6:4,5; Ezekiel 18:4; Daniel 12:2; Matthew 10:28; 25:46; Romans 6:23; 2Thessalonians 1:6-9; Hebrews 9:27; Rev 20:10, 15

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it. 1Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.

Death and hell are destroyed as there will be no more need of them after the unrighteous are raised up in the second resurrection and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and hell gave up those who were asleep in the grave to stand in God’s Great White throne judgment where the books are opened and another book opened that is the lamb’s Book of Life and those whose names were not written in the Book of Life are then cast into the lake of fire where the beast, false prophet and Satan will be thrown into.

Nowhere in scripture does it say physically what we will look like (righteous or unrighteous), but only descriptive as the righteous will be resurrected to have eternal life with the Father and the unrighteous eternal punishment, everlasting destruction and torment as they will be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.

 

[Butch5]

For the record, I'm with you, Butch5. Eternal conscious torment is not death, but life in torment. I saw the severe error of my ways when someone in church said, "We ALL have eternal life! We all do. The question is, where are you going to spend it?" It then dawned on my in a BIG WAY that if this is true, then it contradicts the bible doctrine that "the soul that sins shall DIE". There's no consciousness in death as that's the intrinsic meaning of death: Lack of life or lack of existence, for something or someone that no longer has life has no existence. If you no longer exist (and are annihilated), then there's no pain, consciousness or suffering -- that's eternal punishment, no coming back from one's demise. I wish Christians everywhere would wake up to this pagan, filthy doctrine of ECT.

Hi Tim,

The OT states plainly that in death there are no thoughts, one has no remembrance, cannot praise God. If you ask Christian what their going to do with they die some say they'll be praising God, yet the Scriptures say that in death there is no remembrance of God.

 

[Butch5]

Then your not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.. your bringing another gospel to the table..

That's funny because it's what Jesus said. Was He preaching the Gospel of Christ?

 

[Butch5]

There is a difference between translate and transliterate

Translate = to change from one language to another while retaining the original meaning to explain
Transliterate = to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet

Literal Gehenna you can find on a map is represented as hell/hades/Sheol/grave/pit in the description of those that were thrown in the continuous fires as the fire became their hell/grave/pit as they were consumed by the fire.

Why do you insist on taking a clear statement and trying to make it figurative? Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. He didn't say a place like Gehenna or a place represented by Gehenna. He said they would be cast into Gehenna. What logical or hermeneutical reason would claim for using this figuratively?

 

[turnorburn]

That's funny because it's what Jesus said. Was He preaching the Gospel of Christ?

There's nothing funny about the lake of fire..