It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

[Quid]

I will concede that the Koran has violent passages, but what about the majority of Muslims? The ones who choose not to use violence? You seem to be condeming them as violent murderers as well. But we know the majority of Muslims are not violent. I'm certain you only mean to pick your words better.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Now, I'm sure many of you would claim Hitler was no Christian, which may very well be true judging his actions. However, he is just as much a true Christian as the people who make these attacks are true Muslims.

Hitler was no Christian. The Nazi (National Socialist) ideologies were influenced by (mutilated and raped versions of) the theories of Nietzsche and others.

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

[quote="Adolph Hitler":38997]My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

[/quote:38997]

And thus, Mein Kampf draws upon religious language to curry the empathy and favor of those still ensconsed in the bosom of Christendom. In this manner, he wrote as late as 1930

Let us pray in this hour that nothing can divide us, and that God will help us against the Devil! Almighty Lord, bless our fight!"

But as he gained control of Germany, and endeavored to enslave Europe, the true substance of his beliefs emerged

It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity, because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood"

"It is deplorable that the Bible should have been translated into German, and that the whole of the German Folk should have thus become exposed to the whole of this Jewish mumbo jumbo.

We shall see to it that the churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth."

His "truth?" National Socialism.

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let us be the only Folk who are immunized against the disease

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practices a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect."

All of the latter quotes came when it was no longer necessary to attempt to seduce a Christian populace

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

He claimed to be a lot of things that he obviously was not.

He is as much of a Christian as the suicide bombers are Muslims

I do not see bin Laden distancing himself from Islam or describing an end to Islam- only an end to those countries who do not adqautely fight for it.

So, if you follow the word of the Qu'ran, the only reasonable war is one of self-defense.

Self-defense, like George Bush's war in Iraq. Yeah, that rings kind of hollow when he says it, and when you say it.

There must be no coersion in matters of faith

bit more reasonable position than another Judeo-Christian belief-system (hint: Christianity).

What a load. The reasonable, non-coercive Islam. :roll:

Sounds more like the Qu'ran is trying to preach peace among the various Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Like the kind of peace preached to the Byzantines, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Cypriots, the Coptics, and so forth?
The kind of peace preached in Darfur?

 

[Lonelyguide]

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

Hitler would have claimed that he was a cousin of Mickey Mouse if that would have furthered his cause. The ideas of Nietzsche, of other great minds and of Christianity, however, were more "profitable."

 

[Guest]

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

He claimed to be a lot of things that he obviously was not.

And suicide bombers claim to be Islam, which they are not.

He is as much of a Christian as the suicide bombers are Muslims

I do not see bin Laden distancing himself from Islam or describing an end to Islam- only an end to those countries who do not adqautely fight for it.

I don't see the KKK distancing themselves from Christianity. Should I take that to mean that Christianity promotes hanging black people and Jews? What I do see is a lot of Christians distancing themselves from the KKK and I also see a lot of Muslims distancing themselves from Osama Bin Laden.

So, if you follow the word of the Qu'ran, the only reasonable war is one of self-defense.

Self-defense, like George Bush's war in Iraq. Yeah, that rings kind of hollow when he says it, and when you say it.

Bush's war in Iraq was self-defence? I wasn't aware Iraq was attacking us.

[quote:bc816]There must be no coersion in matters of faith

A bit more reasonable position than another Judeo-Christian belief-system (hint:
Christianity).

What a load. The reasonable, non-coercive Islam. :roll:[/quote:bc816]

Well, Islam certainly has a better history of being non-coercive than Christianity. For example, it was the policy of the Islamic Empire to accept non-Muslims as citizens and the only penalty is that they paid a higher tax, mostly due to the fact that non-Muslims didn't voluntarily give 5% to alms. However, Christianity has a well documented history of very coercive tactics of conversion... such as burning native Americans alive if they didn't convert.

Sounds more like the Qu'ran is trying to preach peace among the various Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Like the kind of peace preached to the Byzantines, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Cypriots, the Coptics, and so forth?
The kind of peace preached in Darfur?

As someone pointed out, Ghandhi made a good point. The world would be a better place if Muslims were better Muslims and Christians were better Christians and Buddhists were better Buddhists. I'm not saying the people that commit those acts of violence are right. In fact, I'm saying just the opposite and I'm also saying they aren't really Muslim because they don't follow the words of their holy book, just as most Christians don't follow the word of their holy book.

 

[Guest]

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

Hitler would have claimed that he was a cousin of Mickey Mouse if that would have furthered his cause. The ideas of Nietzsche, of other great minds and of Christianity, however, were more "profitable."

And it is very "profitable" for Osama Bin Laden and other Islamic fundamentalists to claim that they are doing the will of Allah.

 

[Quath]

On the contrary, Jesus said "you have heard it said, but I say to you."
Orthodox Christians have always understood the NT to be the superior revelation, as it is written
"God, in various times and in diverse ways spoke to the fathers through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us in His Son."
To us, this means that all OT revelation must be examine against the gospel. If there is conflict or contradicition, the OT is abrogated. See divorce as a prime example.

I still see a problem. Jesus is God. God never changes. God said it was ok to kill from time to time. Therefore, Jesus said it was ok to kill from time to time and Jesus is unchanging in this. It could mean that Jesus/God could favor a war as was done in the past (since they are unchanging).

I know what you are saying, but there is contradictions in how NT/OT approaches problems. And yet, they are suppose to be the same deities in both.

And we who are of the unbroken Church would say "ridiculous!"
Christ's teaching was succinctly summed by Paul: Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. This means that even the wars that we have fought to slow Islam have been at variance with the gospel to some degree. The early fathers were never able to create a "just war" theology, though Augustine valiantly endeavored to do so, because the NT simply does not support war- ever.

The Amish know this, that is why they will never pick up arms. This reality places the rest of us who live surrounded by mercenaries and Visigoths ina dilemma.

There are other passages. I posted this in another thread, but WorldNetDaily has an article on how the Bible supports self defense. Jesus wanted his followed to have swords. Then all one had to do is say that Jesus got into a row with the money lenders and say that it is ok to have righteous anger that leads to violence. I understand what you are saying, but it is easy to find ways around the peace stuff.

The fact of the matter is that pople have used and are using the Koran to advocate violence. The Koran calls for believers to fight against kafirs. The NT calls for believers to not resist. There is no equivalence to be made.

The Quran also has passages that calls for people to get along. It keeps the violence limited to threats to Islam. Though, most of these passages can be worked around.

As I wrote in my post above, Hitler was a Christian in the same way Stalin was an atheist. Both were despots, neither represented the zeitgeist of their respective claimed belief systems.

I agree. I think a belief system for them was just a jusrification to do what they wanted to do anyway.

Same thing goes for Stalin. Do not forget that there were upwards of 6 million Christians who died in Hitler's 'solution,' also.

One bad thing about the world wars was that it was Christian nations against Christian nations. There is a bad history of Christianity fighting others of similar Christian beliefs. It seems that if Christians thought as you do, there would have been no war in the first place.

Quath

 

[Lonelyguide]

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

Hitler would have claimed that he was a cousin of Mickey Mouse if that would have furthered his cause. The ideas of Nietzsche, of other great minds and of Christianity, however, were more "profitable."

And it is very "profitable" for Osama Bin Laden and other Islamic fundamentalists to claim that they are doing the will of Allah.

Indeed.

Even presidents of nations ... large and small ... do it all the time.

... because the multitudes will listen to their leaders. After all ... so nice to know that God is with you when you're out killing other sons of God.
.

.

 

[Gary]

"We see that Muhammad had many people murdered. By request, by command, by implication, Muhammad had many people murdered, many killed while they slept. There were no trials, no judgments, no dialog. If you insulted Muhammad, if you doubted his credibility and if you spoke out, you were murdered. Men and women, young and old, all were killed because of Muhammad's hatred toward those who spoke out against him.

"Here is a summary of the 7 terrorist murders committed upon Muhammad's requests or efforts:

• 1) Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish man who was murdered because he was simply a Jew
  2) Abu Afak, a 120-year-old man, murdered while he slept
  3) Asma Marwan, mother of 5 children, murdered while she slept
  4) A slave woman, mother of two children, murdered while she slept
  5) A one-eyed shepherd, murdered while he slept
  6) A very old woman, literally ripped in half by Muslims who captured her on a raid.
  7) A slave girl, who was murdered because she poked fun at Muhammad.

"Make no mistake about it: Muhammad was a terrorist. Today's Muslim terrorists follow his actions. Like prophet, like followers; today's Muhammadan terrorists commit their acts based upon what Muhammad did.

"Many Muslims are peace-loving people and are thoroughly disgusted about the acts of Islamic terrorism. Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet.

"Based upon Muhammad's actions and teachings, Islam justifies terrorism. Today, Muslims use that justification to attack and murder those who differ from them. Muslim terrorists follow in Muhammad's footsteps.

"Jesus condemned those who murdered without repentance ...."Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" Revelation 22:15. Muhammad falls into that category.

"Jesus said in John 8:44 that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and that those who sought to murder Him were Satan's children. As soon as he could, Muhammad began to have people murdered. Today, Muhammad's children do the same works.

"Jesus taught that one day people would murder Christians thinking they would be doing service to God. Today, in Muslim countries, like Iran for instance, Muslims murder ex-Muslims who have become Christians. And in other countries, they attack and threaten others.

"Jesus taught to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you. Jesus didn't send his disciples out to murder people in the night, Muhammad did. Take the example of Christ and the Samaritans opposition to Jesus.

"As the time approached for Him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. And he set messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?" And he said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of, for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went to another village." Luke 9:51-56

"Muhammad would have ordered his men to attack the Samaritan village, then kill or enslave the people, and take all their possession as plunder. After Muhammad gained power, he sent his armies out to attack non-Muslims.

"Who then really brought God's message of His love for mankind? Who really taught peace?

"Surely, this man Muhammad was not from God. Instead, Muhammad is one of the false prophets Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:11 -

"and many false prophets shall arise and deceive many".

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/terrorism.htm

:-?

 

[Quadeshet]

"Many Muslims are peace-loving people and are thoroughly disgusted about the acts of Islamic terrorism. Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet."

So, Gary, you're saying that the majority of Muslims are not violent because they are ignorant?

If that is the case, then the ones doing the bombing would be the true believers, which they are not.

Just like Christianity, Islam is a world religion that accommodates the existing cultures of people who convert. Extremists in all religions do not follow the generally accepted behavior. In world religions, majority rules.

What makes you think that in the case of Islam the few are representative of the many?

 

[Gary]

Many Muslims are peace-loving people and are thoroughly disgusted about the acts of Islamic terrorism. Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet.

So, Gary, you're saying that the majority of Muslims are not violent because they are ignorant?

If that is the case, then the ones doing the bombing would be the true believers......

Yes, that is correct. The bombers understand the Quran. They know the Quran. They follow Muhammad's example.

What makes you think that in the case of Islam the few are representative of the many?

The few correctly follow the Quran and Muhammad's example.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/S/ ... omber.html

Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet.

Have you ever read the history of Islam immediately following Muhammad's death? The infighting, the murder..... the deceit.

Muhammad's closest followers have always murdered and killed and been deceitful.

The Fruits of Islam's Royal Family

• Muhammad's Wealth
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf1_mhd_wealth.htm
  
  The New King
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf2_newking.htm
  
  Uthman's Murder
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... murder.htm
  
  Ali and Aisha
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf4_ali_aisha.htm
  
  Ali and Mu'awiya
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... uawiya.htm
  
  Husayn and Yazid
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... husayn.htm
  
  The Fruit of Islam Judged
  http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... judged.htm

It isn’t the “goodness or badness†of the Arab people that has caused them to be in such a quagmire, rather it is the poison of Islam. The entire culture has been infected and stifled. Judge for yourself --- the more “Islamic†a Muslim becomes, the more backward and oppressive it grows to be. Only their oil wealth has helped to keep them abreast with the rest of the world.

Satan was a murderer, liar, and thief, and if you examine the fruit of Muhammad and these early Muslims, you find the same deeds.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... judged.htm

:-?

 

[Quadeshet]

Once again, you reference the same site. Do you ever look to other sources for your opinions?

You also ignored the middle of my post: Just like Christianity, Islam is a world religion that accommodates the existing cultures of people who convert. Extremists in all religions do not follow the generally accepted behavior. In world religions, majority rules.

I will clarify. The actions of the few terrorists who claim do follow Islam do not act as their religion proscribes. Islam (just like Christianity has been and continues to be) is being used as a conduit to popularize the extremists' entirely non-majority agenda. It's as empty of faith as the 'in god we trust' stamped on the back of your coins.

Muslims in general are peaceful, because that is the way they are taught to be as part of their religion. It is sad that you are blinded by prejudice.

I don't believe there is a satan, so I cannot evaluate your comparison of their prophet with such an 'entity'.
What I do believe is that, like the Bible, the Quran is a book of loosely interpreted historical events wrapped up in an idea of the supernatural that was consonant with the society of its time.
If there is violence in the Quran it is the same as violence anywhere else in history: people are violent creatures with a desperate need to justify their actions. Religion is just one of the many possible justifications.

 

[Lonelyguide]

What I do believe is that, like the Bible, the Quran is a book of loosely interpreted historical events wrapped up in an idea of the supernatural that was consonant with the society of its time.

With regard to what you say as to the Quran .... plausible as your above premise may sound for those who haven't studied the Quran, that view is a tad too easy.

Whatever one may think of the Islam and of the manner in which some of its more primitive protagonists manifest, the Quran contains countless areas of staggering spiritual depth and complexity. Also from a literary perspective, the Quran is not the product of an illiterate, analfabetic desert dweller, which is precisely what Mohammed was ... an analfabetic desert dweller.

The man must have gotten his inspiration from somewhere. There is no way that he could have written what he wrote without inspiration ...

And to dismiss the Bible as "a book of loosely interpreted historical events wrapped up in an idea of the supernatural that was consonant with the society of its time" would appear to constitute complete ignorance of e.g. the life and teachings of Jesus and ... for those of us with experiential knowledge ... of the manner in which this creation is orchestrated; a manner which, I assure you, is beyond your wildest imagenings.

Of course, man has always interpreted the ancient, timeless Wisdom which the realm of the Spirit has shared with him in the manner which his conditioning and his intellect dictated and through the ages we do indeed see a fearsome, vengeful desert God gradually becoming less and less primitive and more and more loving and "spiritual", but that in itself doesn't mean that the sharing ... the revelations ... weren't there ... and that God wasn't there. Those revelations were real and were simply interpreted to the best abilities, primitive as those abilities may now and then have been, of those who, at the time, did the interpreting. The Bible (OT, NT) and a number of other sources (e.g. Nag Hammadi ... the Gospel of Thomas) contain descriptions of these revelations.

God is God. The way we view/portray Him merely tells us something about who we are. Believe me, if we see a vengeful, bloodthirsty God, that perspective tells us more about us than about God. God is Love; Love of a kind so boundless that you will not encounter in this world.

 

[Gary]

Once again, you reference the same site. Do you ever look to other sources for your opinions?

I read the Quran. Have you? I read the Hadith. Have you? I look at what Muslims do around the world. Do you? I study Islam. Do you? I have studied Muhammad, his rise to power and his "theology"... have you?

I have many books on Islam written by Muslims and by ex-Muslims and by some of the most respected Christian authors on Islam.

http://www.answering-islam.org has many respected authors, both current:

• M. N. Anderson
  James Arlandson
  Rev. Richard P. Bailey
  Andy Bannister
  Dr. William Campbell
  Roland Clarke
  Rev. M. J. Fisher
  John Gilchrist
  Samuel Green
  Dr. Ernest Hahn
  Farooq Ibrahim
  Dawud Jabal
  Khaled
  Memsuah Mansoor
  Abu Miriam
  Gerhard Nehls
  Alano Perez
  Joel Richardson
  Dallas Roark
  Brahim Sene
  Sam Shamoun
  Silas
  Wail Taghlibi
  Anthony Wales
  Walid
  Wildcat
  David Wood

... and classical books by these authors:

• Al-Kalbi
  Al-Kindi
  James Levi Barton
  Richard Bell
  Leone Caetani
  Jens Christensen
  W. H. T. Gairdner
  Abraham Geiger
  H.A.R. Gibb
  William Goldsack
  Alfred Guillaume
  Thomas Patrick Hughes
  C. Snouck Hurgronje
  Arthur Jeffery
  Duncan B. Macdonald
  David S. Margoliouth
  Alphonse Mingana
  Sir William Muir
  Theodor Nöldeke
  Carl Gottlieb Pfander
  Joseph Schacht
  Philip Schaff
  [Canon] Edward Sell
  John Subhan
  William St. Clair-Tisdall
  Charles Cutler Torrey
  G. Weil
  E. M. Wherry
  Arthur N. Wollaston
  Samuel Zwemer

You also ignored the middle of my post: Just like Christianity, Islam is a world religion that accommodates the existing cultures of people who convert. Extremists in all religions do not follow the generally accepted behavior. In world religions, majority rules.

Most Muslims know very little about Muhammad. Most can't read Arabic. The hadith have not been available to most Muslims. Therefore they are unaware of what Muhammad did or stood for. Secondly, I have clearly shown that Muhammad and his immediate followers had little regard for life... especially those who opposed Muhammad and his teachings.

Today, the Muslims "terrorists" act like Muhammad and follow his example. They are "good" Muslims. The "bad" Muslims are those who do not follow his instructions in the Quran nor his example.

I will clarify. The actions of the few terrorists who claim do follow Islam do not act as their religion proscribes.

Not true. Those terrorists follow what the Quran says they must do. Those terrorists do what Muhammad himself did.

Islam (just like Christianity has been and continues to be) is being used as a conduit to popularize the extremists' entirely non-majority agenda. It's as empty of faith as the 'in god we trust' stamped on the back of your coins.

False analogy. Muslims who murder for their religion do what the Quran instructs them to do. Muslims who murder do what Muhammad did.

Muslims in general are peaceful, because that is the way they are taught to be as part of their religion. It is sad that you are blinded by prejudice.

Muslims in general are unaware of what Muhammad did or taught. So are you.

I don't believe there is a satan, so I cannot evaluate your comparison of their prophet with such an 'entity'.

Christians believe in Satan. So did Muhammad. Muhammad's actions prove that there is a Satan.

 

[Gary]

Whatever one may think of the Islam and of the manner in which some of its more primitive protagonists manifest, the Quran contains countless areas of staggering spiritual depth and complexity. Also from a literary perspective, the Quran is not the product of an illiterate, analfabetic desert dweller, which is precisely what Mohammed was ... an analfabetic desert dweller.

The man must have gotten his inspiration from somewhere. There is no way that he could have written what he wrote without inspiration ....

I have studied and read the Quran for 6 years now. I totally disagree. I find nothing of "staggering spiritual depth and complexity" in the Quran. Quite the opposite.

From a literary perspective, the Quran has many mistakes. It is repetitive. It has scribal and grammatical errors. It has many discrepancies and contradictions. It has internal contradictions (verses contradicting each other or the laws of logic) and external errors (verses contradicting the facts of history or science). It contains historical compressions. There are many abrogated verses in the Quran.

As for its source, it is not so complex to understand. Most of the "staggering spiritual depth and complexity" is not so staggering nor complex when you know where Muhammad plagiarized from!

 

[Lonelyguide]

It has scribal and grammatical errors.

Gary ...

I did say that the man was an analfabetic desert dweller, didn't I?

Don't you find it at least "somewhat" exceptional that someone with such minimal intellectual baggage could have written something like the Quran?

As for what you say as to spiritual depth:

First of all one has to know depth if one is to recognise it, doesn't one? And only you, Gary, know to which depth you can "see".

Secondly I did not study the Islam like you did, but I have circled the globe more than 130 times and during these travels I have also been allowed to meet and have discussions with some rather exceptional Muslims ... both people with a secular academic background and scholars of the Quran (Imams). Based on these discussions my perspective on this differs from yours. Consequently we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

when you know where Muhammad plagiarized from!

The OT finds its origin in the Torah and the Torah ...

Do you also believe that Jesus plagiarized?

 

[Quid]

I have many books on Islam written by Muslims and by ex-Muslims and by some of the most respected Christian authors on Islam.

So if I quote a hardcore, well written atheist with an obvious bias against Christianity stating that it is the cause of most grief, that would be accepted?

Because I can't help but think you might find that unacceptable.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I have many books on Islam written by Muslims and by ex-Muslims and by some of the most respected Christian authors on Islam.

So if I quote a hardcore, well written atheist with an obvious bias against Christianity stating that it is the cause of most grief, that would be accepted?

Because I can't help but think you might find that unacceptable.

One would need to look at the merits of the book, with a special caution to the possible bias of the author. One would not, however, simply dismiss the claims without looking at them.

One can be biased for and against, and if bias is the litmus test for author reliability, we shall never again believe anything we ever read.

 

[Geo]

The Quran speaks clearly about what it stands for and who the good guys
are and who better should be killed:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you,
and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who
exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out
from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than
slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until
they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them;
such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2.246] Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel
after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a
king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not
be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They
said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of
Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and
our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned
back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this
world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of
Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a
mighty reward.

[4.104] And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you
suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain,
and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing,
Wise.

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His
apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that
they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet
should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;
this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the
hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and
religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely
Allah sees what they do.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege
them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent
and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to
them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is
made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able
to assist them;

[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and
the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set
you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a
little while;

[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and
murdered, a (horrible) murdering.

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite
the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them)
prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let
them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be
so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what
is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of
others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He
will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

[61.4] Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if
they were a firm and compact wall.

 

[Quath]

The Quran speaks clearly about what it stands for and who the good guys are and who better should be killed:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you,
and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who
exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out
from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than
slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until
they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them;
such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

These passages are about the Battle of Badr. They were told by Allah to defend their homeland and their Faith. So this is suppose to be passages of self defense.

But some Muslim could easily just read this and decide that it is ok to kill non-Muslims.

However, the same is true of the Bible. For example:

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Christians will say this is Old Testament stuff that doesn't really apply anymore. Or they will say that the killings were only valid when God was ruling as a theocracy. Or whatever they say to show that these verses do not apply to today's beliefs.

Yet some Christians could read this and use it to justify killing nonbelievers as well.

So the Bible and the Quran both have peaceful passages and violent passages. Both religions have extremists that justify their bloody actions by quoting from their Holy Book.

Quath

 

[Gary]

Don't you find it at least "somewhat" exceptional that someone with such minimal intellectual baggage could have written something like the Quran?

Muhammad did not WRITE the Quran... his followers wrote it down, mostly AFTER he died.

Muhammad spoke the Quran. Not unusual at all for Arabs during that time.

It (the Quran) was not delivered or, as Muslims believe, revealed all at once. It came piecemeal over a period of twenty-three years from the time when Muhammad began to preach in Mecca in 610 AD until his death at Medina in 632 AD. The Qur'an itself declares that Allah said to Muhammad: "We have rehearsed it to you in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually" (Surah 25.32).

As the Qur'an developed, Muhammad's immediate companions took portions of it down in writing and also committed its passages to memory. It appears that the memorisation of the text was the foremost method of recording its contents as the very word al-Qur'an means "the Recitation" and, from the very first word delivered to Muhammad when he is said to have had his initial vision of the angel Jibriil on Mount Hira, namely Iqra - "Recite!" (Surah 96.1), we can see that the verbal recitation of its passages was very highly esteemed and consistently practised.

As I said, I find nothing at all "exceptional" about the Quran. If you do, why not quote a few of the "exceptional" verses or one of the "countless areas of staggering spiritual depth and complexity."