Jesus Claimed To Be God

[Nintentacle]

I'm doing this thing somewhere else Online, and I need to post it all here, since the site is saying I used profanity in the post.

Jesus does not have to say "I am God." to claim to be God.

One thing you're misunderstanding, is that you cannot exclude the Old Testament books. You need the Old Testament to fully understand the New Testament. Jesus was a Jew, so if he quotes something that God says in the Old Testament, and applies it to himself, that would be a claim of divinity to him and all of Israel.

John 8:24 - He claimed to be the I am (Exodus 3:14).
John 8:58 - He claimed to be the I am (Exodus 3:14).
Matthew 28:18 - Jesus claimed to have ALL power, which only God has.
Revelation 22:13 - Jesus claimed to be the first of the last, knowing that God claimed to be in Isaiah.

Jesus only seperates himself from the Father because he was in the form of a servant when he was on Earth (Read Philippians 2), he is still God.

Matthew 24:36 - Jesus didn't know then because he was in the form of a servant then (Read Philippians 2). This instance in Matthew 24:36 never stopped Peter from thinking that Jesus knew everything. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, thou knowest all things" (John 21:17), after Jesus rose from the dead. All Jesus responded was "Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not." (John 21:17-18). He didn't say, "Nay, I know not all things: Him that sent me knoweth all things."

The prophecy that Christ fulfilled even show that he is God:

Zechariah 9:9 - "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.".
God is the king of Israel (Isaiah 44:6), brings salvation (Isaiah 12:2), and is just (Proverbs 16:11), so Zechariah is talking about God. Jesus fulfilled this, making him God (Matthew 21:1-9). Jesus clearly had the ability to self-fulfill this, so he was claiming to be God through his actions.

 

[JohnD]

I am not certain where you are going with this.

If you are soliciting assistance, I am glad to help.

 

[JohnD]

All that is God must be approached from three dimensions, the very individuals of the Godhead themselves. There is only one God. And the tendency to refer to God in singular pronouns (he / him / his) is to establish above all depictions of God the oneness of the Godhead. And at times an individual of the Godhead speaks for the Godhead in singular terms (I / Me / Mine). Mainly to oppose the theological plague of polytheism which came about early on as a human misunderstanding of the triune nature of the one God.

But the reason we must approach the subject from three ways is each is unique and distinct enough to have been or done things the other two have not (which bolsters the point of three individuals that make up the one God). If you can't quite get your head around this, think of a family of three. Each is family. Each is an individual. And the three individuals make up the one family.

 

[JohnD]

Jesus did not go around boasting or even emphasizing his deity (not as much as you'd think). But rather his humanity. Just the way we would if we were to voluntarily become something lower than we are to benefit others. This is not boasting. It is teaching.

The Holy Spirit (whose ministry is to lead us to Jesus) who wrote the Bible through the writing prophets (2 Peter 1:20-21) uses the entire Bible to teach us about Jesus (including his deity) and we must not be limited by the opposition to just the hings Jesus said about himself.

 

[JohnD]

Jesus in fact did not blurt much out about himself as the Messiah to the people he wanted to show himself the Messiah and for them to figure it out... but sadly there was no pre-seasonal figs of this kind to be found (Mark 11:13-23). He did give the woman at the well (John 4) a Samaritan hated by Jews and a woman considered to be quite whorish in her own community, a very pointed claim to be the Messiah.

 

[JohnD]

Even Christians mistake who in the Godhead has had the most dealings with humanity (in both Testaments). Yes the Father and the Holy Spirit have been present at all times and distinct one from the other... but humanity has dealt mostly with God the Word (the Spirit of the man Jesus):
1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
John 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:14 (NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
While never ceasing to be God:
Philippians 2:6 in the Greek says of Jesus "morphe theos huparchon" never ceasing to be God.
100% human 100% God. Which is no to say he is all that God is anymore than it is to say he is all humanity. Beware those
who try to twist absurdity into plausible sounding ideals.
Jesus Christ (preincarnate) is the sole Creator of all things created in the beginning. Not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. Both were there:

1 John 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
Genesis 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

But the Creator in the beginning acted alone:

Isaiah 44:24 (NIV)
24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Colossians 1:13-16 (NIV)
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

John 1:1-3 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

by him / through him language used to distinguish between equal persons of the same kind or type... Do not fall for the language that "by him" or "through him" means he was only a lesser tool in the hand of a superior being.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

God (all three individuals) the one who became the Son is the one through whom God made the universe.

The verse speaks like the example:
Donald Trump Sr. amassed the Trump family fortune. The family fortune was amassed through Donald Trump Sr. You would not infer from this that Donald Jr or Invanka made the fortune with him or that they used him as their tool to accomplish it. Though in my humble opinion Donald Sr is a tool...

You get the point.

 

[JohnD]

The LORD, the I AM, the Angel of the LORD, the Word of the LORD in the Old Testament were in fact the preincarnate Jesus. Under the authority of God the Father. In company with the Holy Spirit who came upon many in the Old Testament.

 

[JohnD]

But many who attended seminary and have studied the Bible through and through believe that the Father is the God of the Old Testament and with only a few guest appearances Jesus (preincarnate) was in the background somewhere. Fraid not. It's the other way around.

John 16:3 (NIV)
3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

1 John 2:13 (NIV)
13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.

If the Father was the God of the Old Testament neither verse can be true.

 

[Obadiah]

A reminder to all:

A&T forum guidelines:

Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

 

[JohnD]

I hesitate to get into what tends to confuse some.
And it rarely works to convert any opponents to the Trinity or the deity of Jesus. Only because they are set in their ways or the Spirit has not opened their eyes.

Taking the Trinity to a clinical basis

God individual A
God individual B
God individual C

God individual A... who became the Father when he created the body of the Son (John 1:14b / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5)
God individual B... the Word who the scripture reveals to us because he is the main character of scripture who became the Son
God individual C... the one who reveals the truth and centers upon Truth personified God individual B who became the Son and Savior

God individual A... God the Authority
God individual B... God the Word
God individual C... God the Author

Until the Father created the body of the Son and the Son took on that human form, neither the Father was the Father nor the Son the Son. Not yet. Both were equal along with the Holy Spirit and in eternity past before anyone or anything existed beside God, they were all there was in existence. Then and only then was God in everything that existed (to refute the teaching that God is the creation or in the creation). They make the logical fallacy of projecting former conditions into the present condition.
Die hards / hard heads in what they believe one and all.
I recently listened to an interview with Stephen Hawking. He made a presentation that went on and on about the new discoveries and the drastic change in the thinking of scientists... and then he put the same old atheistic interpretation of all things spin on it all.
The statement they will never admit to "We don't really know how the universe got here... but we know that God didn't do it!"
I was encouraged to learn that Hawking (without admitting to it) disproved uniformitarianism (claiming the conditions at the time of the BIG BANG were different than now, "and," his computer voice said, "now we know the universe could create itself from nothing."
It's sad really.

 

[JohnD]

Okay.
If you would be so kind as to make my many posts into one post I'd appreciate it Obadiah.
I was trying to make each point distinguished and in bite sized posts.
Or perhaps you could play the devil's advocate and take the opposing point of view of each post to keep my posts from seeming like I am trying to flood the thread.
I was going on the distinct impression that the OP was asking for our help.
My time is limited since I have two jobs to online time so I try to get it all in while I have the time and / or the energy.
I appreciate your input, Obadiah. And your consideration. Thank you kindly, sir.

 

[Obadiah]

JohnD, that was just a general notice we've been putting in most of the active threads in A&T to make everyone aware of the new guidelines in this forum. I wasn't saying you did anything wrong.

 

[JohnD]

Okay.
Still, if you want to jump in, it might make it more interesting. Yes?

 

[Obadiah]

It's my personal policy not to take part in giving my opinions in threads where I am a moderator. Makes it too hard to be impartial if something needs to be done from a moderating perspective.

 

[JohnD]

I perfectly understand.
I believe I speak for others here when I say I appreciate you an the mods / admins!

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I think I know what you mean. But he was top of the ladder. John 10:30 "I and my father are one".

Something I will add to that....he did exalt himself and was abased. Its kinda silly to think that but its true. And he did cast an example of Earthly life for the rest. But the difference is......his words were actually the truth. Many exalt themselves daily but they are not doing it for God but themselves. He did it for God and got abased. Because it was written.