Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe that the Lord requires someone to do something before they receive life?

If that is so, then our receiving life would be based on something we did first.

Consider John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Is not the order here clear enough?? Those who believe SHALL HAVE eternal life.

Nothing about those who have eternal life will believe, which seems to be your view.

Your views are in reverse order from the Scriptures.

 

[Nathan]

Well, of course Paul was not lying. But in your agreement about believing and being saved, considering the tenses involved, how can you still say that one is saved before they believe? Paul's answer directly refutes that idea.


Not my translation. It's what the Bible very clearly says. Both Paul's answer to the jailer and Paul's writing to the Corinthian believers in 1 Cor 1:21.


I don't consider the action of believing to be a work, certainly not the way the Bible uses "work".

The action of believing is non-meritorious. Is that understandable, or do I need to explain further?

God saves those who believe. iow, He saves believers.

Where is the text that says He saves people so that they will or an believe? I am unaware of such a text.

We must believe to be saved. That does not mean belief precedes it - it just means that belief is a continuation in salvation.

A 'work' is anything you do. If you 'do' something to precede God doing something, then you are earning what God is giving you. However, if you do something in response to what God does for you, then you are not earning it - you are simply believing it.

God does save those who believe - that does not mean He only saves them after they believe.

The Gospel is that God so loved the world that He sent His Son to die for our sins. Christ died for us while we were still sinners paying the wages of our sins because we could not. God, in His grace, made us alive together with Christ - forgiving all our sins and making us a new creation in Christ.

Now - you either believe the Gospel or you deny it. This was all done before you believe - not a result of your belief - so that you cannot have any boast.

 

[Nathan]

Is the order not clear? 1 Cor 1:21 basically says that God saves those who believe. The believing precedes the saving.


Of course I do. That's exactly what is means.


The Bible speaks of having eyes, but not seeing. That may be the problem.

You've got a viewpoint, but it does not line up with Scripture.

I would like to know what text led to your viewpoint that one is saved before they believe.

I have posted the text over and over. We are dead in our sins when God made us alive in Christ. He does not predicate our being made alive based on us doing something - He makes us alive because He wants to and it pleases Him.

 

[Nathan]

In these verses, the 'dead' refers to spiritually dead, meaning separated from God. Of course spiritually dead people can believe. That's the requirement for being born again. That is clear from Eph 2.


Unbelievers are enemies in the sense of being separated by their sins. When they believe, they are born again and no longer enemies.


He died AFTER all the OT believers believed. But He died BEFORE most of the NT believers believed.

Your question insinuates that His death saves people. Is that correct?


What text would lead to that conclusion?

Consider this verse that refutes your conclusion: Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

I am hoping the ORDER is clear to all who read this verse. Believing PRECEDES being forgiven.

iow, forgiveness is RECEIVED after believing in Him.

Exactly, we are spiritually dead - separated from God - so there is no way possible to believe and be reconciled to God until He makes us alive.

Yes, Christ's death does save people! This is good news! It is the Gospel!

Rom 5:7-8
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

We do receive forgiveness through His name. But our belief is not what brought that about, it is God's love that did. You are forgiven - you either believe it or you do not. If you choose to deny the truth that God saved you because He wanted to, then you have no forgiveness of sins. Only in Christ is there forgiveness of sins. If you want to come to God on your own terms, through your own belief, He will not accept you.

 

[Nathan]

Consider John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Is not the order here clear enough?? Those who believe SHALL HAVE eternal life.

Nothing about those who have eternal life will believe, which seems to be your view.

Your views are in reverse order from the Scriptures.

Yes, dead people cannot 'see' to look on the Son. God made us alive in order that we can look on Him who is our salvation. We believe in Him for eternal life, and He will raise us up on the last day.

The order is quite clear - God makes us alive, we see, we believe, we live.

Most certainly those who have eternal life will believe - those who deny Christ refuse eternal life. Eternal life is Christ.

When you say that a person has to believe before they are made alive it makes absolutely no sense. How can a dead man see? How can a dead man believe? Why is it necessary to trust in something you did to be the basis of your salvation?

 

[Nathan]

Did God make the promises to Abraham before he believed, or after he believed? Were God's promises based on Abraham believing, or God doing?

Gen 15:1-6
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

 

[MCoop]

Yes, dead people cannot 'see' to look on the Son. God made us alive in order that we can look on Him who is our salvation. We believe in Him for eternal life, and He will raise us up on the last day.

The order is quite clear - God makes us alive, we see, we believe, we live.

Most certainly those who have eternal life will believe - those who deny Christ refuse eternal life. Eternal life is Christ.

When you say that a person has to believe before they are made alive it makes absolutely no sense. How can a dead man see? How can a dead man believe? Why is it necessary to trust in something you did to be the basis of your salvation?

You are absolutely correct Nathan! Faith in Christ or belief in the gospel is the immediate fruit of being regenerated by the power of Gods Spirit. Salvation is all of grace!

 

[Nathan]

You are absolutely correct Nathan! Faith in Christ or belief in the gospel is the immediate fruit of being regenerated by the power of Gods Spirit. Salvation is all of grace!

Right! That is why we can have solid faith in Christ. After all, if He made us alive apart from anything we did, then it means He truly wants us - not because of something we did - but because He loves us. I can not think of any better news than that of the Creator loving me so much to reconcile me to Himself even while I was hostile toward Him.

 

[MCoop]

Right! That is why we can have solid faith in Christ. After all, if He made us alive apart from anything we did, then it means He truly wants us - not because of something we did - but because He loves us. I can not think of any better news than that of the Creator loving me so much to reconcile me to Himself even while I was hostile toward Him.

Amen!! How gracious and merciful He is! Glory and Honor belong to Christ Jesus and Him alone

 

[Gregg T]

Do you believe that the Lord requires someone to do something before they receive life?

If that is so, then our receiving life would be based on something we did first.

One must believe that the LORD exists, believe His word concerning Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected, then call upon His NAME (that is to place your trust in Him for salvation and justification).

That requires obedience and repentence, and is the beginning of loving the LORD.

 

[Gregg T]

I would say the act of believing in Jesus Christ was a clear "change of mind" regarding my lost condition.

I would not say that prior to being exposed to the gospel, that a person was in 'disobedience of not believing'.

But, after exposure to the gospel, if one simply didn't believe the promise of eternal life by faith, then that is disobedience of unbelieving.

Yes, a change of mind I know.

About someone prior to knowing the gospel not being disobedient, Paul writes,

• Regarding His Person Rom 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." and
• Regarding His word Gal 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

I agree that rejecting the Gospel is both disobedient and unbelieving. May the Lord give us all here a heart and mind to fully understand His word and speak of Him accordingly.

 

[Nathan]

One must believe that the LORD exists, believe His word concerning Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected, then call upon His NAME (that is to place your trust in Him for salvation and justification).

That requires obedience and repentence, and is the beginning of loving the LORD.

So do you believe salvation comes after a person believes, calls, and trusts? A person has to do that before God will save them?

Does that put salvation in the hands of the person or God?

Most importantly, how does a person do this if they are dead spiritually? If you are not made alive spiritually first, then all you spoke of is done in the flesh.

Can the flesh of mankind do what is right to please God before God accepts them?

 

[Gregg T]

Your views are in reverse order from the Scriptures.

To coin a new term: Calvinism's theological dyslexia

 

[Nathan]

To coin a new term: Calvinism's theological dyslexia

Expound

 

[Gregg T]

So do you believe salvation comes after a person believes, calls, and trusts? A person has to do that before God will save them?

Does that put salvation in the hands of the person or God?

Most importantly, how does a person do this if they are dead spiritually? If you are not made alive spiritually first, then all you spoke of is done in the flesh.

Can the flesh of mankind do what is right to please God before God accepts them?

Believe and then saved (notice the order in Mk 16:16, Jn 3:15-16, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9, 1 John 5:13).

Yes, a person has to believe before God puts him into Christ.

That does not put salvation in the hands of the person; as it is God who sent His Son, who was crucified and is resurrected, who sent His Spirit. The LORD is the One who saves, justifies, sanctifies, atones for, transfers, holds, rules, mediates, forgives, sustains, promises, leads, guides, protects, works, gives.

Unbelievers are dead spiritually as in separated from God, and having the sentence of death. But that does not equate to total depravity, inability to reason or think or determine or exercise his will. All I spoke of is not done in the flesh, but from the heart and soul in conjunction with God working in the heart and soul; John 3:21 "But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God."

No, the flesh can not do what is right; but the unsaved man is more than his body of flesh.

 

[Nathan]

Believe and then saved (notice the order in Mk 16:16, Jn 3:15-16, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9, 1 John 5:13).

Yes, a person has to believe before God puts him into Christ.

That does not put salvation in the hands of the person; as it is God who sent His Son, who was crucified and is resurrected, who sent His Spirit. The LORD is the One who saves, justifies, sanctifies, atones for, transfers, holds, rules, mediates, forgives, sustains, promises, leads, guides, protects, works, gives.

Unbelievers are dead spiritually as in separated from God, and having the sentence od death. But that does not equate to total depravity, inability to reason or think or determine or exercise his will. All I spoke of is not done in the flesh, but from the heart and soul in conjunction with God working in the heart and soul; John 3:21 "But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God."

No, the flesh can not do what is right; but the unsaved man is more than his body of flesh.

Does the unsaved man have the ability to do what is right(righteous)?

 

[Gregg T]

Expound

Calvinism's theological dyslexia:
1. perceiving scriptural texts in reverse of their written and/or chronological order,
2. made alive or 'quickened' before being saved,
3. placed in Christ before believing.

I am not saying these things jokingly or to demean someone with reading dyslexia.

 

[Gregg T]

Does the unsaved man have the ability to do what is right(righteous)?

Unsaved men have the ability and the responce-ability to right things; and none have the innate charactor of righteousness of their own.

Was Abraham righteous before he believed God?

 

[Nathan]

Calvinism's theological dyslexia:
1. perceiving scriptural texts in reverse of their written and/or chronological order,
2. made alive or 'quickened' before being saved,
3. placed in Christ before believing.

I am not saying these things jokingly or to demean someone with reading dyslexia.

Fair enough. As long as we know it's your coined phrase.

What would you call a person who does something when they are dead?

 

[Nathan]

Unsaved men have the ability and the responce-ability to right things; and none have the innate charactor of righteousness of their own.

Was Abraham righteous before he believed God?

No, Abraham was not righteous before he believed God(I have no proof).

Did God make promises to Abraham before Abraham was righteous? Were the promises based on Abraham's righteousness?