Gregg T
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Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!
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Gregg T
Member
The point is Abraham believed God, and afterwards it was accounted / credited to him as righteousness.
Yes to the 1st question, and no to the other.
I don't know what you mean by the context is the Tribulation.
I said, "We don't know when the end will be. No one knows."
And you said, "Sure we do. The Bible tells us. In that context, the "end" is not the "end of one's life" as it seems you're understanding it, but the "end of the Great Tribulation". Which is 7 years long. What we don't know is when it starts."
So again I'm saying no one knows when the end will be. This is in the context of his teaching. Jesus said, But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." Mt. 24:36 referring to his coming. "Watch therefore for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." Mt. 24:42
The disciples asked him about when he would return, and what would be the sign of his coming and the close of the age. Mt. 24:3 So he tells them what must take place before he returns.
So the tribulation is in the context of his teaching. ie.these things must take place before he returns. Actually there will be days right after the tribulation when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken". Mt. 24:29
And his coming marks the close of this age and the beginning of his 1000 year reign. Jesus said, 'he who endures to the end will be saved.' Mt. 24:13 The end is the end of this age.
It makes no sense to say his teaching re. his coming and the end is about the tribulation.
Please direct me to the text that makes this clear. Otherwise, there is no reason to accept your conclusions.
In fact, the requirement to "believe to be saved" is a very clear proof that belief does precede salvation.
Actually, not. Paul clearly distinguished between works and grace in Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
In v.4 Paul ties "works" to "wages as an obligation". So, it's NOT "anything you do" that is a work. When the Bible speaks of works, it does so in the sense of EARNING something, like a wage for work done.
iow, we EARN a living by working. We get PAID for our work.
No one pays someone for just thinking. Only when that thinking is applied to gaining something for the employee would the thinker get paid, and that is work.
But how would God gain materially by our believing in His Son? He doesn't. So believing in Christ is NON-MERITORIOUS, and NOT a work.
While we may say that mental activities can be "hard work", it isn't work in the way that the Bible uses it.
This is totally untrue. It may be your opinion, but it is not true. It would have to be shown from Scripture that God materially gains from our belief in the Savior, which would THEN qualify as salvation being EARNED by what we did.
But that CANNOT be shown from Scripture, and the mere claim that believing is a work is without any merit or basis from Scripture.
This is the biblical sense of believing. God HAS ALREADY done something for us before we can believe. He has:
1. revealed Himself to all of mankind, so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing His existence and being grateful to Him for it (Rom 1:19-20)
2. provided the sacrifice of His Son for our sins, paying the sin debt for us
3. provides His own life, eternal life, in grace, for those who trust in His Son for salvation.
So, this shows that God has already done everything necessary before we can believe.
Our only response can be to either accept His gift by grace, or to reject it. And face an eternity apart from Him.
Yes it does. Please provide any Scripture that supports your claims.
Exactly. But what you've missed is that to be "in Christ" REQUIRES belief in Christ.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Paul said, "you...were included in Christ when...having believed, you were marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit"
No one is placed in union with Christ UNTIL they believe. That is EXACTLY what the Bible says.
[/QUOTE]Now - you either believe the Gospel or you deny it.[/QUOTE]
Correct.
Please provide the text from the Bible that says this.
I've already shown the opposite from the Bible.
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Here, Paul equates being "make alive with Christ" with "you have been saved". iow, to be made alive with Christ is to be saved.
Also recall in the previous chapter, in v.13 Paul linked being "IN HIM" with "having believed". So by the time we get to 2:5, we ALREADY KNOW that being "with Christ" or "in Christ" comes from "having believed" in the first place.
Then, consider 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
So, that's how we have been saved, which is "through faith". So, being made alive in 2:5 is also "through faith".
Your theology has it all backwards.
I've just proved the opposite. That we must believe BEFORE we are made alive and saved.
No argument. But the claim that he saves or makes anyone alive BEFORE believing in Christ is not biblical and NO EVIDENCE for that exists within Scripture.
Existing in the minds of some doesn't mean it exists in Scripture.
You've provided no evidence to support your claims.
Thank you again for supporting my views. There is NOTHING to believe UNTIL God makes promises. I've already shown 3 things that God already did before man can believe. And your statement here reinforces my point.
God has already done everything necessary before man can believe.
Of course God's doing. God's promises are based on His own character, which is perfect. And man can either accept His promises or reject them.
Pease provide the text from Scripture that makes this clear.
Amen!!
Right!!
My point about "enduring to the end to be saved" is about the Tribulation. So, "the end" in those verses refers to the end of the Tribulation.
Nathan
Member
A work is anything you do and receive something in return. If you say that a person has to believe before Christ dies for their sins, then their salvation is based upon what they do before what they receive. That's a false gospel.
Col 2:6-14
Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
We received Christ, not based on what we did - but based on what pleases God. It is empty deceit to say that we must do something first before God does something for us. We were buried with Him in baptism, and raised with Him through faith.
God made us alive together with Him while we were dead. God saved us because we could not save ourselves by doing ANYTHING.
A person either believes this is true and abides in Christ, or they deny this to be true and deny Christ. You cannot have salvation based on what you did - not anything you do. God gives us salvation freely - but only apart from anything we do. If you deny this you deny God's gift and instead hold to your own idea of righteousness.
No, it's NOT. But since you've not interacted with my post and explanation of the DIFFERENCE between a work for wages and just "doing something", it seems there's no use in further discussion. I gave the verses to support my view, and you've not provided any verses to support your view.
Furthermore, your view has God owing the believer salvation for his/her belief. Yet I've shown the verse that DIFFERENTIATES and DIFFERENTIATES between a work that EARNS something from grace, by which we are saved. We are saved BY GRACE. That seems to be missed in your view. So believing is NOT a work.
Well, like I said, there seems to be no use in further discussion. John 3:16 directly refutes your claim.
It is God's idea and plan to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21. That wasn't man's idea. Man does NOT earn salvation by believing in Christ. What man is required to to is have faith in what God promises.
So when a man believes, God has OBLIGATED HIMSELF to make good on His promise.
God promises to save believers. Do you agree that this promise obligates God to make good on that promise?
What is NOT TRUE is that man's believing means that man obligates God to do something. Man simply believes what God promises. That doesn't mean man is obligating God to do something. Man can only RECEIVE what God promises through faith.
Please address my posts by engaging each point I make. When my posts are responded to in general, then the specific points are actually being ignored or at least neglected. I've made very clear points. If any of them can be refuted, then please proceed, using Scripture.
Man's belief in Christ does not create a debt owed by God. That would be works. But God's promise obligates Himself. Do you see the difference?
Nathan
Member
FreeGrace
You are completely twisting my post. I absolutely do not believe that God owes us anything.
God does not obligate Himself - God has given His Son to us so that we can believe in Him for righteousness. We either believe it or do not.
Those who choose to deny God's gift of His Son will not have eternal life no matter what they have done in the past - a person can do NOTHING to receive eternal life - it is a free gift and has to be received as such. You either believe this and have life, or you deny this and will have condemnation.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
You are completely twisting my post. I absolutely do not believe that God owes us anything.
God does not obligate Himself - God has given His Son to us so that we can believe in Him for righteousness. We either believe it or do not.
Those who choose to deny God's gift of His Son will not have eternal life no matter what they have done in the past - a person can do NOTHING to receive eternal life - it is a free gift and has to be received as such. You either believe this and have life, or you deny this and will have condemnation.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
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Using words like you and your among others goes to personal attacks.. ..
It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic.
Using words like you and your among others goes to personal attacks.. ..
It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic.
So your point (whatever that might be) about enduring to the end is about the Tribulation. So the verses refer to the Tribulation. So what you mean is what they say. If you say they are about the Tribulation, then they are about the Tribulation.
But Jesus said, 'he who endures to the end will be saved', whether he endures to the end of his life or to the end of the world, which ever comes first. So the end refers to all things as they are.
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I didn't say that you did believe that.
I WAS pointing out that your is that about my view, which it is NOT. And I explained WHY it is NOT.
This shows a lack of understanding what a promise means. Which is why there is no point in further discussion. We're pages apart.
This isn't in debate.
What people MUST DO to receive eternal life is to believe in Christ. John 3:15, 16, 5:24, 6:40, 20:31. Which isn't a work. As I've proven from Scripture.
Scripture says otherwise. I've given 5 verses that say we must believe to have the gift.
It is free and is received by believing in Christ.
Here's another verse, 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Is the order here not clear? "believe in Him and receive eternal life". It couldn't be any more clear than that.
This isn't in debate.
Not what I say. What the Bible says in that context. The subject is the Tribulation.
Nathan
Member
I am not debating you, so what is and what is not in debate is besides the point.
I am speaking the truth about the Gospel of Christ. Eternal life is in Him alone, and not based on something we do. We do not receive eternal life because we believe - it is given to us and we either believe and accept it, or deny and reject it.
Anyone who says eternal life is based on something you do is a false teacher - nothing we do can be the reason why God gives us His love. We love Him because He first loved us.
1Jo 4:19
We love because he first loved us.
I am speaking the truth about the Gospel of Christ. Eternal life is in Him alone, and not based on something we do. We do not receive eternal life because we believe - it is given to us and we either believe and accept it, or deny and reject it.
Anyone who says eternal life is based on something you do is a false teacher - nothing we do can be the reason why God gives us His love. We love Him because He first loved us.
1Jo 4:19
We love because he first loved us.
There is quite obviously a debate about whether a saved person who possesses eternal life can end up in hell.
I've shown from Scripture that one must believe before they receive eternal life. Therefore, we disagree.
The Bible says contrary to this statement. John 5:24 has already been shown as proof, with NO refutation. So this claim is against what that verse says.
Further, 1 Tim 1:16 is in contrast to this statement. "believe and receive eternal life". There is no getting around these verses.
Please share any text that says God gives everyone eternal life and then each person either accepts or rejects eternal life.
Neither Jesus nor Paul were false teachers, and BOTH OF THEM were clear about having to believe BEFORE receiving eternal life.
The verses are clear and no one has even offered any kind of explanation for what they "might really mean" in order to support your view.