John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Pegasus]

a very sobering read. I've never heard this story. Frightening really. I have a pastor friend who walked away from his family after 20 plus years of faithful ministry. He's divorced, having cheated on his wife. He picked up the guitar, plays the blues and hangs out with his music buddies in the bars. He's two years younger than I. Mid life crisis? Don't know. He won't respond to any of my messages. :/ I still pray God will bring him to his senses.

Pastor John MacArthur tells a story of a football coach of his who was in the church most of his life, left to lead a similar life of the pastor friend of yours. Then when terminally ill calls John to speak with him. There was a different result from the William Pope confession I posted. John joyfully gave his coach's eulogy of his repentance a few months later. Keep your phone charged and keep in touch with your friend. You may get a call some day.

It's why I mention the sovereignty of God in salvation. Salvation belongeth unto the LORD (Psalm 3:8). Some of us are like the sheep who wanders out of the pen, only for the Good Shepherd to leave the 99 to go search for the lost sheep. We should take that into account as we have had posters here mention, they could not understand it but God in His Grace scooped them up and brought them back. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Pegasus]

Calvinists regularly overemphasize the sovereignty of God to the neglect of the free will of man.
A god {sic} who sovereignly forces man to love him is not the God of scripture.

I'm not a Calvinist but do comment on Calvinism when someone misrepresents it. The Scriptures are clear. God chooses; man has free will. The only theologian I know of who believed in hyper predestination was St. Augustine. I have already posted the two Reformers in Luther and Calvin who made it clear faith means faithfulness. The difference being with the Reformers is the Grace of God is the promise of conforming us to the image of the Son. We cooperate with the will of God in the sense of already being in the standing as adopted sons. Not that there is any internal goodness outside of God's Grace which merits our justification or sanctification. Which as you called a different topic and logical fallacy, which it is not, as the canons of the Council of Orange clearly point out:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

Straw man again.
Please try to adhere to what those who reject OSAS actually hold to be the truth.

The straw man is the term "OSAS." As it is not even a Calvinist doctrinal term. Call it what the Calvinists call it, Perseverance of the saints. Instead OSAS is somehow called a doctrine, which if you refer to Theopedia, the term is affixed to late 20th century televangelist 'easy-believism' and carnal Christianity. Which would have a historical linkage to antinomianism. Please compare here:

http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

Therefore, I consider OSAS used against Calvinists as a derogatory term to oversimplify their doctrine and, yes, create a straw man to beat upon. Just as "fundamentalist' is used as a derogatory term today.

And we cooperate with God by submitting to His leading and chastisement by living a life of repentance; of subduing the desire of the flesh; and imitating Jesus according to God's plan that we be conformed to His image. (Rom 8:29) If our cooperation was not necessary then about half of the NT letters content is not applicable because, in it, Paul and James and Peter and John and Jude tell us how we should act as believers.

No argument there. Faith implies faithfulness. To each as much light is given we are to shine that light.

The Theopedia link goes further:

Definitive wandering is deadly and maybe a sign that one is not truly saved. Christians in the bible are warned and encouraged over and over again to not give up, but to persevere in faith in order to be saved. "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial," as James says, "for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12)

You need to dig a bit deeper than the handy-dandy proof-texts you've been taught to recite.

Considering the OP is one proof text, physician heal thyself.

 

[Pegasus]

I don't think much about those who hold to OSNAS. People have different perspectives on many things. I prefer to focus on the promises of God.
I recently did a short study on what it means to shipwrecks one's faith. It almost sound like someone who shipwrecks their faith has given up on it. Lost it. But I don't think that's the case. One's faith ought to produce fruit of some kind. Fruit comes in many forms. Loving your wife as Christ loved the church would be a fruit. Same with loving others. Having an overall Christ-like attitude and demeanor. Serving others is a fruit if it's motivated by the Spirit. Let's say one is a pastor, having felt the call of God they went to school and built up a ministry. Then one day they fell into sin. All their schooling, hard work, and ministry, gone in a moment of passion. That's a shipwrecked faith. They can pick themselves back up and start again, but what they had before is now shipwrecked. Reputation is forever tainted. I know at least three pastors whose stories are exactly that. Which is why I think we're told so often to keep our eyes on the prize. Fleeting moments of sin cause a lifetime of destruction and can't be undone. Sin has its consequences. Divorce, ruined reputations, not to mention giving non believers reasons to scoff.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have already posted the two Reformers in Luther and Calvin who made it clear faith means faithfulness. The difference being with the Reformers is the Grace of God is the promise of conforming us to the image of the Son. We cooperate with the will of God in the sense of already being in the standing as adopted sons. Not that there is any internal goodness outside of God's Grace which merits our justification or sanctification.

Amen.

The straw man is the term "OSAS." As it is not even a Calvinist doctrinal term.

It was uses as an "AKA" for the Preservation of the Saints in the Calvinist website I posted.

I consider OSAS used against Calvinists as a derogatory term to oversimplify their doctrine and, yes, create a straw man to beat upon.

Talk to the Calvinists who use the term.
From the Protestant Reformed Churches: ( http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html )
P - Preservation of the Saints

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

Considering the OP is one proof text, physician heal thyself.

A proof-text is not an entire passage.

 

[Jim Parker]

How does a person know if their belief is the real deal, not a dead faith?

Here's an example of people with "real faith" becoming apostate:
Heb 6:4-6 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened (saved), who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (filled with the Holy Spirit) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (had their eyes opened to the scriptures' truth and observed the power of God in action) if they then commit apostasy, (lose or discard their faith) since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

 

[Nathan]

Pastor John MacArthur tells a story of a football coach of his who was in the church most of his life, left to lead a similar life of the pastor friend of yours. Then when terminally ill calls John to speak with him. There was a different result from the William Pope confession I posted. John joyfully gave his coach's eulogy of his repentance a few months later. Keep your phone charged and keep in touch with your friend. You may get a call some day.

It's why I mention the sovereignty of God in salvation. Salvation belongeth unto the LORD (Psalm 3:8). Some of us are like the sheep who wanders out of the pen, only for the Good Shepherd to leave the 99 to go search for the lost sheep. We should take that into account as we have had posters here mention, they could not understand it but God in His Grace scooped them up and brought them back. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ!

We also have to take into account, from the passages we have looked at, that you should not wonder off into sin - expecting that Jesus will "save" you before/if you go too far.

I think most of us would agree that a believer should never think such things to begin with, but many times people do come on to a forum thinking "I heard this preacher one time saying....." and then look around for their proof.

Praise God when He does reach out to the wondering soul and their hearts are still soft enough to hear, bringing them back into the fold when they had gone out.

But we must not think that a wondering soul, when rejecting the voice of God time after time, cannot have their heart become hard and closed to the voice of God.

Hebrews 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Who is my brother? Is an unbeliever my brother? If it were not possible to fall away from the living God, why does the writer of Hebrews warn of such?

Jesus said such of who was a "brother", but you can also find that throughout the whole of the NT, the term brother was reserved(unless speaking of a physical family sibling) for believers in the faith.

Matthew 12:46-50
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[atpollard]

Talk to the Calvinists who use the term.
From the Protestant Reformed Churches: ( http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html )
P - Preservation of the Saints

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

Just for completeness, the whole section on "P" ...

Living Like the Devil?
Is the faith of our fathers living in your life? In your church? We sing the song: "Faith of our fathers living still..." and no doubt the faith is living. But the question is, "Where is that faith living and confessed?" And, "What is the faith of our fathers?" It was expressed over 350 years ago by our church fathers at the Synod of Dordt (in the Netherlands). We use the familiar acrostic: TULIP to help us remember what our fathers said the Bible teaches:

P - Preservation of the Saints
The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: "And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28). See John 6:39, 17:2, 11,12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc. etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace.

 

[Nathan]

Just for completeness, the whole section on "P" ...

Living Like the Devil?
Is the faith of our fathers living in your life? In your church? We sing the song: "Faith of our fathers living still..." and no doubt the faith is living. But the question is, "Where is that faith living and confessed?" And, "What is the faith of our fathers?" It was expressed over 350 years ago by our church fathers at the Synod of Dordt (in the Netherlands). We use the familiar acrostic: TULIP to help us remember what our fathers said the Bible teaches:

P - Preservation of the Saints
The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: "And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28). See John 6:39, 17:2, 11,12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc. etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace.

Its interesting how whoever wrote this assumed so much. I do not think, and I doubt many others like me think, that a person can be lost and saved many....many times. I would say that a person is lost, can be saved, and then can become lost again. Not many times.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine?

Only for those Christians who read the scriptures and do their best to apply the teaching to their daily lives.

P - Preservation of the Saints
The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

The best way I can respond to those statements is that they are lies.

We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort.

Snowflakes need comfort.
The scriptures tell us to persevere in the faith. God will empower anyone who attempts to do so.
Rom 5:3-4 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Eph 6:17-18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
2Ti 3:10-11 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Pe 1:5-8 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it.

Of course not. I have never suggested that anyone can save himself.

 

[Jim Parker]

I doubt many others like me think, that a person can be lost and saved many....many times.

I don't think, as a rule, those who reject properly OSAS believe that a person can be lost and saved over and over.

 

[Nathan]

Only for those Christians who read the scriptures and do their best to apply the teaching to their daily lives.

The best way I can respond to those statements is that they are lies.

Snowflakes need comfort.
The scriptures tell us to persevere in the faith. God will empower anyone who attempts to do so.
Rom 5:3-4 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Eph 6:17-18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
2Ti 3:10-11 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Pe 1:5-8 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course not. I have never suggested that anyone can save himself.

You forgot some Jim

Philippians 2:12

1 Peter 1:17

Hebrews 4:1

I'm sure there is more. Fear, Godly fear, is a good thing.

 

[Nathan]

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace.

I had to add something to this post again. I don't know if this is something you believe or not atpollard, or if its just what you found written on the subject, but I find a fatal flaw.

What about the believer, who is trully a child of God, who finds himself in sin? If they looked at this "Preservation of the Saints", then they would assume that they had not been saved because they don't see much good in their life. After all, according to this doctrine, God makes the believers holy and empowers them to live holy lives, and they continue in well doing.

We know that a believer can sin. But at what point is that sin an indication of the person not actually being a believer? Is there an amount of sin? A time period that indicates it?

This position seems scary to me. Very scary. It may seem comforting to some, but I know that I battle the flesh every day, and based on this "P" I would not know if I am saved if at times I have some doubt.

 

[atpollard]

Its interesting how whoever wrote this assumed so much. I do not think, and I doubt many others like me think, that a person can be lost and saved many....many times. I would say that a person is lost, can be saved, and then can become lost again. Not many times.

The quoted reference points to a truth that I commonly observe ... people are seldom successful at presenting the opposing point of view. I first learned about 'biblical precepts' in a Church of God (Weslyan Arminianism) and I can't remember EVER discussing how many times one could lose salvation ... The focus that I remember was more along the line of 'chose this day who you will serve' and guarding your faith. My brother once expressed it as "Pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on you."

So the statement might not be true for you, but might be true for some, however it is presented in a dishonest manner since I know first hand that even those Christian brothers of my acquaintance who believe salvation can be lost, do not view it as as trivial a thing as that writer presented it.

By the same token, the same place that equated "Perseverance of the Saints" with "Once you are saved, you are always saved." made it VERY clear that living a reprobate lifestyle is evidence of a lack of salvation and continuing in the faith to the end is evidence of a true faith. Thus it is also deceptive to quote "OSAS" from that site and apply it to some Hyper-Calvinism where one can fall into a reprobate lifestyle and remain saved.

 

[atpollard]

Only for those Christians who read the scriptures and do their best to apply the teaching to their daily lives.

The best way I can respond to those statements is that they are lies.

Snowflakes need comfort.
The scriptures tell us to persevere in the faith. God will empower anyone who attempts to do so.
Rom 5:3-4 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Eph 6:17-18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
2Ti 3:10-11 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Pe 1:5-8 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course not. I have never suggested that anyone can save himself.

I just wanted to clarify that I was only presenting the context surrounding that OSAS = P quote.
None of this was me commenting on anything you wrote, so I take none of your rebuttals as directed against me.

 

[Jim Parker]

What about the believer, who is trully a child of God, who finds himself in sin?

There is yet to be a true believer who does not find himself in some kind of sin. That's what Paul was talking about.
Rom 7:22-23 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.
When a believer no longer "delights in the law of God", that is when he is lost.
Also, John said: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jo 1:8
The believer who finds himself in sin is supposed to confess. (1Jo 1:9) That's why the RCC and the Orthodox churches require believers to go to confession. It forces us to examine our lives and to identify attitudes and behaviors which are contrary to God's will.

But at what point is that sin an indication of the person not actually being a believer?

When he does not lament the sin and does not ask forgiveness and decides to continue in it, he has rejected his faith. (Though he may show up at church all the time and serve on the deacon board and sing in the choir etc.)

 

[Jim Parker]

By the same token, the same place that equated "Perseverance of the Saints" with "Once you are saved, you are always saved." made it VERY clear that living a reprobate lifestyle is evidence of a lack of salvation and continuing in the faith to the end is evidence of a true faith.

A reprobate lifestyle does indicate a lack of salvation and continuing in the faith does indicate evidence of true faith.
But that's not the issue.
Heb 6 describes a person who is saved who becomes apostate.
It clearly shows that it is possible for a saved person to return to his un-saved condition.
Gog preserves (God's work) those saints who persevere (man's work) to the end.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Hebrews 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

This is one of them.

 

[atpollard]

I had to add something to this post again. I don't know if this is something you believe or not atpollard, or if its just what you found written on the subject, but I find a fatal flaw.

What about the believer, who is truly a child of God, who finds himself in sin? If they looked at this "Preservation of the Saints", then they would assume that they had not been saved because they don't see much good in their life. After all, according to this doctrine, God makes the believers holy and empowers them to live holy lives, and they continue in well doing.

We know that a believer can sin. But at what point is that sin an indication of the person not actually being a believer? Is there an amount of sin? A time period that indicates it?

This position seems scary to me. Very scary. It may seem comforting to some, but I know that I battle the flesh every day, and based on this "P" I would not know if I am saved if at times I have some doubt.

First point:
Jim Parker had quoted the following (and included a link to the source):

Talk to the Calvinists who use the term.
From the Protestant Reformed Churches: ( http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html )
P - Preservation of the Saints

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

... so I just posted the rest of what was at that link about "P - Preservation of the Saints". I did so to see the quote in its full context, which includes an explanation that it specifically does not mean hyper-Calvinism. I neither agree nor disagree with what the Protestant Reformed Churches Association posts on their website, I just like to see ALL quotes in their larger context.


Second Point:
I can see your point and have 'been there, done that, got the shirt'. Let me answer your excellent question with another question. For the exact same person you mention (the believer, who is truly a child of God, who finds himself in sin), how is he better off believing that God is not able to keep his promise? That Jesus may or may not raise him on the last day. That the Holy Spirit is not a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. That He who began a good work may or may not finish it. ... because it all depends on whether or not that struggling person who finds himself in sin has the strength to persevere.
[I don't see the source of this greater comfort and assurance.]

Let me invite you into my world, because this is not hypothetical for me. I have a close friend named James. Nobody I ever met wants to do the right thing more than James. However James struggles with crack addiction. For more than a decade, I have watched James through his success and his failures. From sleeping in his car, or behind a shopping center, to dragging other people just hanging by their fingernails to the Fellowship where James finds the encouragement to go on.

Sweet Jesus, I don't need to tell James that the drugs are bad. James knows that. I don't need to tell James about sin and repentance and doing the right thing. James knows that, too. James does not come in with excuses. Church is full of people who can't wait to tell me what went wrong and how it isn't their fault, but James is not among them. James returned after being gone for a few months and said "Sorry. I wanted to come back. I knew I needed to come back. I was ashamed. I kept telling myself that I would clean myself up and then I could come back. Then I realized that the only time I ever had the strength to clean myself up, was when I came to church and Jesus gave it to me. So I came back. I invited a few guys. They couldn't make it this week, but I'll keep asking them."

So do I need to tell James about the Vine and the Branches and warn him about the danger of sinning one too many times? That salvation is only for those who hold fast and obey to the end? What I tell James is that we believe in James. Not the man he was, but the man that Jesus died so that he could become. We tell James all of those 'damnable' Calvinist OSAS proof texts ... That no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and Jesus WILL raise them up at the last day; so if God is not willing to give up on James, then neither are we. We tell James that Holy Spirit in him, the one that gives James the strength to resist, the one James drags with him into the shooting gallery, is a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance, so if the Holy Spirit will not give up on James, then neither will we.

... You know the rest of the verses. You have probably heard them tossed out in spite in a debate and mocked in counterargument often enough. I know I have. For me those verses are assurance that it is not about my holiness and my perseverance ... it is all about the peace that comes from knowing that I only need to try, because through Christ, my effort is good enough. I am now free to try my best with no 'TEST ANXIETY' ... which means that my feeble efforts are given with a heart that is right with God and my offering is found acceptable.

 

[civilwarbuff]

First point:
Jim Parker had quoted the following (and included a link to the source):

... so I just posted the rest of what was at that link about "P - Preservation of the Saints". I did so to see the quote in its full context, which includes an explanation that it specifically does not mean hyper-Calvinism. I neither agree nor disagree with what the Protestant Reformed Churches Association posts on their website, I just like to see ALL quotes in their larger context.


Second Point:
I can see your point and have 'been there, done that, got the shirt'. Let me answer your excellent question with another question. For the exact same person you mention (the believer, who is truly a child of God, who finds himself in sin), how is he better off believing that God is not able to keep his promise? That Jesus may or may not raise him on the last day. That the Holy Spirit is not a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. That He who began a good work may or may not finish it. ... because it all depends on whether or not that struggling person who finds himself in sin has the strength to persevere.
[I don't see the source of this greater comfort and assurance.]

Let me invite you into my world, because this is not hypothetical for me. I have a close friend named James. Nobody I ever met wants to do the right thing more than James. However James struggles with crack addiction. For more than a decade, I have watched James through his success and his failures. From sleeping in his car, or behind a shopping center, to dragging other people just hanging by their fingernails to the Fellowship where James finds the encouragement to go on.

Sweet Jesus, I don't need to tell James that the drugs are bad. James knows that. I don't need to tell James about sin and repentance and doing the right thing. James knows that, too. James does not come in with excuses. Church is full of people who can't wait to tell me what went wrong and how it isn't their fault, but James is not among them. James returned after being gone for a few months and said "Sorry. I wanted to come back. I knew I needed to come back. I was ashamed. I kept telling myself that I would clean myself up and then I could come back. Then I realized that the only time I ever had the strength to clean myself up, was when I came to church and Jesus gave it to me. So I came back. I invited a few guys. They couldn't make it this week, but I'll keep asking them."

So do I need to tell James about the Vine and the Branches and warn him about the danger of sinning one too many times? That salvation is only for those who hold fast and obey to the end? What I tell James is that we believe in James. Not the man he was, but the man that Jesus died so that he could become. We tell James all of those 'damnable' Calvinist OSAS proof texts ... That no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and Jesus WILL raise them up at the last day; so if God is not willing to give up on James, then neither are we. We tell James that Holy Spirit in him, the one that gives James the strength to resist, the one James drags with him into the shooting gallery, is a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance, so if the Holy Spirit will not give up on James, then neither will we.

... You know the rest of the verses. You have probably heard them tossed out in spite in a debate and mocked in counterargument often enough. I know I have. For me those verses are assurance that it is not about my holiness and my perseverance ... it is all about the peace that comes from knowing that I only need to try, because through Christ, my effort is good enough. I am now free to try my best with no 'TEST ANXIETY' ... which means that my feeble efforts are given with a heart that is right with God and my offering is found acceptable.

Well said.......

 

[Pegasus]

We also have to take into account, from the passages we have looked at, that you should not wonder off into sin - expecting that Jesus will "save" you before/if you go too far.

I think most of us would agree that a believer should never think such things to begin with, but many times people do come on to a forum thinking "I heard this preacher one time saying....." and then look around for their proof.

Praise God when He does reach out to the wondering soul and their hearts are still soft enough to hear, bringing them back into the fold when they had gone out.

But we must not think that a wondering soul, when rejecting the voice of God time after time, cannot have their heart become hard and closed to the voice of God.

Hebrews 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Who is my brother? Is an unbeliever my brother? If it were not possible to fall away from the living God, why does the writer of Hebrews warn of such?

Jesus said such of who was a "brother", but you can also find that throughout the whole of the NT, the term brother was reserved(unless speaking of a physical family sibling) for believers in the faith.

Matthew 12:46-50
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Indeed. What is the condition of the heart which says "let me do anything I want on Saturday night, for tomorrow Christ will forgive me?"

People sometimes use the case of King David. However, I seriously doubt David calculated in his head the bulls and rams needed so he could commit adultery. It is my estimation he was overcome with weak flesh and the power of his position to think at that point of lust, he could have anything he wanted.