John 15 and the True Vine

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[Anto9us]

Act 2:25

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Act 2:26

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Act 2:27

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

I think even in the Old Testament, the death and ressurectcion of Christ was foretold

 

[dirtfarmer]

Act 2:25

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Act 2:26

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Act 2:27

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

I think even in the Old Testament, the death and ressurectcion of Christ was foretold

hello Anto9us, dirtfarmer here

The thing that was a "mystery" was the establishment of the "Church" the body of Christ.

Abraham made the statement in Genesis 22:8, " And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." It was no surprise that Christ was resurrected, but what was hidden from the world was the "making of twain one new man: Ephesians 2:15

 

[Jim Parker]

All Paul was saying that he was sent to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews - but they both had the same gospel.

 

[atpollard]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

I have been straight forward with you in answering your questions, with scripture.

Please answer this simple question.

Why are you trying to associate the Vine of John 15, which is a reference to Jesus, to a vine in the old testament that clearly is not a reference to Jesus?

What is your motive, your goal, the end result you are trying to achieve, in trying to associate Jesus the True Vine, with a vine in the old testament, that is not a reference to Him?

JLB

Question 1.
"Why are you trying to associate the Vine of John 15, which is a reference to Jesus, to a vine in the old testament that clearly is not a reference to Jesus?"

Answer:
I agree that Jesus is the "True Vine" of John 15, however I do not agree with your statement that the vine in the Old Testament clearly is not a reference to Jesus. There are many references to the vine in the OT, some are the vine of Israel full of promises that are for both the people of ancient Israel and the True Israel (Jesus Christ). Some are promises and prophecies that were given in the OT were not fulfilled in the OT and some could not be fulfilled except by the Messiah, so the OT vine in those verses had to be Jesus. Some OT references to the vine are curses for unfaithfulness that cannot apply to Jesus and must be only the vine of Earthly Israel.
So I am associating the messianic verses on the vine in the OT to Jesus, and I am associating the unfulfilled promises for the vine to Israel that are being fulfilled in Jesus to Jesus, and I am not applying the curse of God on the unfaithful vine to Jesus.

You ask "why?" By studying scripture through the lens of typology and NT revelation, as Hebrews teaches us, we can see the truths written across the pages from beginning to end. The original audience was familiar with the vine typology before Jesus opened his mouth, that is why Jesus chose that metaphor. I want to understand what Jesus was saying and what those with ears to hear were hearing. That requires a "big picture" view.

 

[Jim Parker]

So I am associating the messianic verses on the vine in the OT to Jesus,

Like these??
Psa 80:8 Thou didst bring a vine out of Egypt; thou didst drive out the nations and plant it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Mat 2:14-15 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[atpollard]

Like these??
Psa 80:8 Thou didst bring a vine out of Egypt; thou didst drive out the nations and plant it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Mat 2:14-15 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

For sure!


(I had not even spotted the Hosea-Matthew parallel. Thank you for that!)

 

[JLB]

Question 1.
"Why are you trying to associate the Vine of John 15, which is a reference to Jesus, to a vine in the old testament that clearly is not a reference to Jesus?"

Answer:
I agree that Jesus is the "True Vine" of John 15, however I do not agree with your statement that the vine in the Old Testament clearly is not a reference to Jesus.

Here is the vine you referred me to in the old testament.

Jeremiah 2:20-22
20 “Long ago you broke off your yoke
and tore off your bonds;

you said, ‘I will not serve you!’

Indeed, on every high hill

and under every spreading tree

you lay down as a prostitute.

21 I had planted you like a choice vine

of sound and reliable stock.

How then did you turn against me

into a corrupt, wild vine?

22 Although you wash yourself with soap

and use an abundance of cleansing powder,

the stain of your guilt is still before me,”
declares the Sovereign LORD.

Is Jesus a corrupt and wild vine?

Ezekiel 15:1-8
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, how is the wood of a vine different from that of a branch from any of the trees in the forest? 3 Is wood ever taken from it to make anything useful? Do they make pegs from it to hang things on? 4 And after it is thrown on the fire as fuel and the fire burns both ends and chars the middle, is it then useful for anything? 5 If it was not useful for anything when it was whole, how much less can it be made into something useful when the fire has burned it and it is charred?

6 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: As I have given the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest as fuel for the fire, so will I treat the people living in Jerusalem. 7 I will set my face against them. Although they have come out of the fire, the fire will yet consume them. And when I set my face against them, you will know that I am the LORD. 8 I will make the land desolate because they have been unfaithful, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

Again, I ask: "Why are you trying to associate the Vine of John 15, which is a reference to Jesus, to a vine in the old testament that clearly is not a reference to Jesus?"




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Here is the vine you referred me to in the old testament.

You asked me for a reference for the cursed vine in the OT that I claimed did not refer to Jesus (when you were claiming that Jesus was cursed for us), so I provided it. There are many verses on vines in the OT, some refer to Jesus.

[deja vu all over again]

 

[atpollard]

Again, I ask: "Why are you trying to associate the Vine of John 15, which is a reference to Jesus, to a vine in the old testament that clearly is not a reference to Jesus?"

See post 105, where I answered in detail.
See the OP for more OT vine verses and more explanation about why I associated it with John 15.

 

[JLB]

You asked me for a reference for the cursed vine in the OT that I claimed did not refer to Jesus (when you were claiming that Jesus was cursed for us), so I provided it. There are many verses on vines in the OT, some refer to Jesus.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Ok.

Please share with us a reference to a vine in the Old Testament that refers to Jesus, and lets compare it to John 15, where Jesus says He is the true Vine, so we can discern from the language of the scripture itself what is being said.

• I know Romans 11 makes this distinction, about branches being removed.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


JLB

 

[JLB]

See post 105, where I answered in detail.
See the OP for more OT vine verses and more explanation about why I associated it with John 15.

Here is your quote from # 105

Please point out the scriptures from the old testament you used to show this "detail" about how the old testament verse are linked to John 15.


I don't see any scripture at all quoted here in your post.

I see only some comments you made, but no scriptures linking to John 15.

I agree that Jesus is the "True Vine" of John 15, however I do not agree with your statement that the vine in the Old Testament clearly is not a reference to Jesus. There are many references to the vine in the OT, some are the vine of Israel full of promises that are for both the people of ancient Israel and the True Israel (Jesus Christ). Some are promises and prophecies that were given in the OT were not fulfilled in the OT and some could not be fulfilled except by the Messiah, so the OT vine in those verses had to be Jesus. Some OT references to the vine are curses for unfaithfulness that cannot apply to Jesus and must be only the vine of Earthly Israel.
So I am associating the messianic verses on the vine in the OT to Jesus, and I am associating the unfulfilled promises for the vine to Israel that are being fulfilled in Jesus to Jesus, and I am not applying the curse of God on the unfaithful vine to Jesus.

You ask "why?" By studying scripture through the lens of typology and NT revelation, as Hebrews teaches us, we can see the truths written across the pages from beginning to end. The original audience was familiar with the vine typology before Jesus opened his mouth, that is why Jesus chose that metaphor. I want to understand what Jesus was saying and what those with ears to hear were hearing. That requires a "big picture" view.

JLB

 

[reba]

On one hand we read folks saying, one way or another, Jesus is on just about every page of the OT ..

searching the word 'vine ' is a cool read

 

[JLB]

On one hand we read folks saying, one way or another, Jesus is on just about every page of the OT ..

searching the word 'vine ' is a cool read

Yes The whole Bible is about Jesus, no doubt.


However, because Jesus was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, doesn't necessarily mean that people can not be removed from Christ, once they are "in Him".

IOW because there are many awesome references to Jesus in the Old Testament, that fact alone does not give us the right to dismiss the fact that people can indeed be removed from being "in Him", according to His words in John 15:1-6.

That's the point I am making.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

Here is the warning: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• In Him = Eternal Life.
• Removed from Him = Thrown into the fire and burned.

Paul says it this way -

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


The possibility exist's that a person can indeed be removed from being "in Christ", because later on they no longer believe; unbelief.

Based on what the scriptures teach, we should always encourage people to be faithful: to continue in the faith; to continue to believe.

We should warn them of the consequences.



JLB

 

[reba]

Yes The whole Bible is about Jesus, no doubt.


However, because Jesus was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, doesn't necessarily mean that people can not be removed from Christ, once they are "in Him".

IOW because there are many awesome references to Jesus in the Old Testament, that fact alone does not give us the right to dismiss the fact that people can indeed be removed from being "in Him", according to His words in John 15:1-6.

That's the point I am making.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

Here is the warning: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• In Him = Eternal Life.
• Removed from Him = Thrown into the fire and burned.

Paul says it this way -

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


The possibility exist's that a person can indeed be removed from being "in Christ", because later on they no longer believe; unbelief.

Based on what the scriptures teach, we should always encourage people to be faithful: to continue in the faith; to continue to believe.

We should warn them of the consequences.



JLB

I never implied anything of the sort... Do not use my posts as a way to continue your battle ..

 

[Douglas Summers]

Many times the Israelits were admonished to obey ... if ye obey
If they shall confess their iniquity
My understand of the OT is God is NEVER slack on His promises .. Scriptures show His promises come with conditions

The Mosaic covenant is what the Israelites were under in the Promised land. The Mosaic Covenant is the fourth IV in the order of the 7 covenants God made with Israel. The Mosaic Covenant is the ONLY covenant that was conditional (If Isreal will obey, then God will reward). After being lead out of Egypt and being saved from the curse on the first born by God's grace, Israel choose that they would receive God's favor by obedience (works) (Exodus 19:5-8) All the other Covenants were unconditional (meaning, God would of His own uphold the covenants.
So, as you say, the mosaic covenant came with conditions (because Israel asked for it that way) Exodus 19:8. The other 6 covenants were by faith, not works or conditions. Compare Exod. 9:11 with Exod. 19:5.

 

[reba]

Exo 9:11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

[JLB]

I never implied anything of the sort... Do not use my posts as a way to continue your battle ..

?

 

[reba]

On one hand we read folks saying, one way or another, Jesus is on just about every page of the OT ..

searching the word 'vine ' is a cool read

I post the above JLB
you quoted it
your lead into your post

Yes The whole Bible is about Jesus, no doubt.
However, because Jesus was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, doesn't necessarily mean that people can not be removed from Christ, once they are "in Him".

because you quoted me the post implies i had said something that woud lead you to post what you did... I did not..

 

[JLB]

I post the above JLB
you quoted it
your lead into your post


because you quoted me the post implies i had said something that woud lead you to post what you did... I did not..

Here are your words:

On one hand we read folks saying, one way or another, Jesus is on just about every page of the OT ..

searching the word 'vine ' is a cool read

That's all you said.


Just because I responded to these words with my own post doesn't mean that somehow, you are associated with or agree with what I posted.


SHHHHEEEESSSSSHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Good grief Reba!

Do not use my posts as a way to continue your battle ..

Furthermore, because I made a post in which I am discussing what is being said doesn't mean there is some "battle" I'm waging.




JLB