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John 3:16, and OSAS, A dispensatinalists conundrum.

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thessalonian

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"For God so love the world that he gave his only son, that whomsoever should believe in him will have eternal life. "

Beautiful isn't it. It's a problem for dispensationalists who believe in Once Saved Always Saved. There are a few of them on this board. The problem is when your arguing fall from grace vs. OSAS those who believe in this doctrine will say "what does eternal life mean. Well of course it means you can never loose your salvation. Anyone can see that". Well for the dispensationalist flavor of Protestant they have just painted themselves in to a corner. You see they say that salvation was a different ball game before pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Back then one could fall from grace, loose his salvatoin (though I don't like that phrase and prefer fall from grace.). Well that being the case, the context of John 3:16 is the people whom Jesus was speaking it to in that dispensation. Thus when Jesus said "believe" he had to have meant continue in believe. All over the place in the NT, especially John's Gospel it says they believed. In John 6:66 it says they "no longer believed". The bottom line then is that in the context of the time, regardless of what happened after Pentecost, Jesus could not have been preaching OSAS and eternal life and belief were only in the context of continued belief. One could fall from grace and stop believing.

Read on Next post
 
Here is a little article that a friend gave me that goes along with my above post quite nicely.


Does John 3:16 Teach Eternal Security Through Faith Alone?
http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals ... hn3-16.doc
By Steve Ray

My mother asked me, “How would you like fifty cents?†I quickly responded, “I would like it very much.†What a silly question to ask an eight year old. Of course I would like fifty cents. Fifty cents was a lot of money when I was a little boy. My mother continued, “Here is a Bible verse I want you to memorize, and when you can recite it perfectly, I will give you the money.†And that is how I first learned and memorized some of the most well-known passages of the Bible. I memorized all of Psalm 23, “The Lord is My Shepherd . . . “ I learned Psalm 119:105, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path,†which was a constant reminder of the Bible’s place of preeminence in my life, the sole rule of faith and practice.

Of course the most important verse to be memorized by any Evangelical Protestant child is John 3:16. It is a verse that encapsules the Gospel of Christ in one elegant and pregnant sentence, a sentence that reaches to the heart of God and explains the essence of history and salvation in twenty-five short words. The key action words stand out with stark clarity: loved, gave, believe, perish, and have. We can possess (have) something because of God’s act of love, and a response by man. The loving act of God in history, opened an otherwise locked and bolted door, providing man with an escape from damnation and an offer of eternal life.

No one comes to the Bible, or any other information for that matter, with complete objectivity, without a tradition and mindset by which the information is filtered. Before finding the Catholic Church last year, my wife and I, like our Evangelical friends, held to the fundamentalist traditions of belief in Christ and justification by faith alone. Recently I was approached by a Fundamentalist who said that “Abraham believed God and was made righteous (Gen. 15:6), and since the word believed is in the past tense, it meant that Abraham was saved in the instant He believed God. Abraham supposedly was saved and had eternal security from that point in time based upon his one-point-in-time mental assent. The Fundamentalist friend then moved to John 3:16 and tied Abraham’s belief to our belief in Christ.

There is an interesting twist with this verse that seemed to elude my Fundamentalist friend. I asked him if he had ever looked carefully at the tense of the action words in John 3:16. He hadn’t, and because his tradition tells him that one-time-belief is the basis of salvation, he automatically understood John to mean that by a momentary mental assent to Christ, one could be assured of eternal security and a guaranteed place in heaven. I dissected the verse to give him the information he lacked, and which I had lacked all my life before Catholic Church.

First a note about the action words. In Greek, the language of the New Testament there are many tenses for verbs. We will discuss two: aorist and present. The Aorist tense describes one point in time. It is as simple as that. Present is the current, ongoing present action. It is also as simple as that. Aorist is represented by a point ( . ). Present is represented by a continuous line ( ----- ). Now, with this simple understanding, lets look at John 3:16:

John 3:16 “For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action) in him should not perish (aorist, a past point in time), but have (present, current, progressive action) everlasting life.†(KJV).

Interesting, uh? The present tense “that whosoever is believing in Him†puts a different light on the verse. One would expect the word believe to be aorist, to show it’s a “once-and-for-all†act, a “one-point-in-time†event. I used to say, “I believed in Christ on such and such a date so I know I am saved.†But now I say, I did believe in Christ, I am believing in Christ and I am being saved.†One could ask why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The present tense implies continually believing, a process of believing, and not the past mental assent I once thought.

Notice that “have everlasting life†is also in the present tense. It does not say you will have eternal life in the past or future, but that you will currently be having eternal life. One Greek Grammar explains the present tense this way, says, “The present tense is basically linear or durative, ongoing in its kind of action. The durative notion may be expressed graphically by an unbroken line ( ), since the action is simply continuous. This is known as the progressive present. Refinements of this general rule will be encountered; however, the fundamental distinction will not be negated. He who is currently, habitually and continuously believing . . . will be currently and presently having eternal life. One needs to be careful with the interpretation of the Bible, for what what believes and understands has eternal consequences.

Does the word believe mean a mere mental assent. The biblical term believe can’t be reduced to just a mental acceptance. The word believe in biblical times carried with it the concept of obedience and reliance. Kittel says “pisteuo means ‘to trust’ (also ‘to obey’) . . .†Vines says, “. . . reliance upon, not mere credence . . .†This is confirmed further by John the Baptist’s statement in John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not (apeitheo) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (KJV) The work apeitheo is understood by all good translators and commentators to mean obedience. The opposite (antonym) of believe is disobey. The verse in the RSV says “He who believes (“is believingâ€Â, present tense) in the Son. . . he who disobeys (“is disobeying†present tense) the Son . . . “

The NASB translates the verse like this: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on himâ€Â. Kittel, a Protestant reference work, clearly defines apeitheo to mean “to be disobedient.†The word belief has the element of obedience wrapped in its arms and the opposite of biblical belief is disobedience. One cannot consider themselves to be biblical if they teach salvation by mental assent (which amounts to cheap grace) without the subsequent and corollary present and ongoing obedience.

My Fundamentalist friend has never responded to the explanation of these verses. I hope someday he will see past the high walls of his Fundamentalist traditions and see the great beauty of the Church and her past. The wall is very difficult to peer over, but many of us have done it. Many of us have not merely peered over the great barrier, we have actually climbed and struggled, finally scaling the barrier and finding the glory of the Catholic Church.

*********************************************************

Endnotes:

1. Aorist Tense: The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point (“inceptive aoristâ€Â), or having ended at a certain point (“cumulative aoristâ€Â), or merely existing at a certain point (“punctiliar aoristâ€Â). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense suffices in most cases.

2. Present Tense: According to Dana and Mantey in their A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament “The fundamental significance of the present tense is the idea of progress. It is the linear tense . . . the progressive force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods, which in the nature of the case do not need any “present punctiliar†tense . . .†Narrowing it down further they say, “There are three varieties of the present tense in which its fundamental idea of progress is especially patent. Under The Progressive Present “This use is manifestly nearest the root idea of the tense. It signifies actionin progress , or state of persistence . . .†In short the present tense expresses ongoing action in the present time.

3. New Testament Greek (James Hewitt, B.A., B.D., M.A., Ph.D.; Hedrickson Publishers; 1986, page 13)

4. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Gerhard Kittel, a renowned Protestant theological dictionary of ten volumes. Eerdmans, 1968

5. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vines (TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1984)
 
Thessalonian,

I am not Catholic. I am sure that we can find many scriptures where our interpretations can, will, and do conflict. But, not here!

This is a wonderful commentary on believing.

I am printing your comment, and adding it to my V.I.P (Very Important Points) binder!

Thanks for sharing your insights on this matter.

In Christ,

farley
 
Once Saved Always Saved gospel, as I understand it to mean is that one is in a constant state of belief in the body of Christ, as they are covered by his grace after professing that he was the true son of God and he was given to die for our sins.

So John 3:16 is the conclusion of OSAS, not an argument against it.

Once Saved Always Saved is the embodyment of, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.â€Â

It is the continual belief that once you accept Christ as your Saviour he keeps you, despite your natural and completely predestined shortcomings.
 
Klee shay said:
Once Saved Always Saved is the embodyment of, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.â€Â

It is the continual belief that once you accept Christ as your Saviour he keeps you, despite your natural and completely predestined shortcomings.

But the choice for neglecting God must also play a factor. As long as I'm continually striving to be more like Christ and have a willing heart to be transformed DESPITE my sins and short comings, I am exercising my free will to allow God to continue working in me.

If, however, I decide to fall and follow my shortcomings deciding that my life wasn't for me, God didn't kill Satan and man when they sinned BECAUSE of that freedom to choose. The Bible states this usage of freedom and falling away continually. They were already in a state of grace, but they fell.

To get around this, the OSAS will say that those people were never truly saved to begin with. This is not only grossly presumptious but anti-biblical. All of Paul's writings were to new Christians. Paul continually talks about 'enduring the race' 'not being deceived', 'falling away' and 'continuing in sound doctrine'. The way of the Christian is a process, heaven and immortality are to be gained and sought after. Treasures are laid up in heaven for those who 'have fought the good fight and run the race faithfully'. That doesn't mean that I can earn my way to salvation, but it does imply that by poor choices and a deliberate separation by my choice from God's grace, that I can lose that which I once possessed.

God isn't going to save me despite myself. The fact that He requires a choice to begin with means that He values freedom of choice. God doesn't force His will on people but allows them to make their own choices...even if it means turning from the faith we once knew.

This is the problem and where the line between OSAS and universalism is fairly blurry. If we don't truly have the freedom of choice, and God's grace is what has saved me, then this grace should apply to everyone despite their 'choice'. If
 
Klee shay said:
Once Saved Always Saved gospel, as I understand it to mean is that one is in a constant state of belief in the body of Christ, as they are covered by his grace after professing that he was the true son of God and he was given to die for our sins.

Not necessarily,.... it means that one is always in a constant state of what Christ has accomplished and that the person believed into.

See, once a person has dived into the water, the reality of having become wet and covered by this water is forever.

A person having dived into the water cannot become a person who has never dived into the water.

Now, this person might leave the water and become dry as a result of doing so, but in this case, the Water being Living and having as Its intention that the person will never be able to become dry again, will do whatever is necessary to bring this about.

Anfd there is nowhere that a person can go that this water can't.


In love,
cj
 
Thessalonian said:
"For God so love the world that he gave his only son, that whomsoever should believe in him will have eternal life. "

Beautiful isn't it. It's a problem for dispensationalists who believe in Once Saved Always Saved. There are a few of them on this board. The problem is when your arguing fall from grace vs. OSAS those who believe in this doctrine will say "what does eternal life mean. Well of course it means you can never loose your salvation. Anyone can see that". Well for the dispensationalist flavor of Protestant they have just painted themselves in to a corner. You see they say that salvation was a different ball game before pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Back then one could fall from grace, loose his salvatoin (though I don't like that phrase and prefer fall from grace.). Well that being the case, the context of John 3:16 is the people whom Jesus was speaking it to in that dispensation.

I don't know who you're speaking of, but Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This fact covers all who would believe, believe, and will believe.

And the three groups need all just have believed for a moment to be eternally saved.


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
Klee shay said:
Once Saved Always Saved gospel, as I understand it to mean is that one is in a constant state of belief in the body of Christ, as they are covered by his grace after professing that he was the true son of God and he was given to die for our sins.

Not necessarily,.... it means that one is always in a constant state of what Christ has accomplished and that the person believed into.

See, once a person has dived into the water, the reality of having become wet and covered by this water is forever.

A person having dived into the water cannot become a person who has never dived into the water.

Now, this person might leave the water and become dry as a result of doing so, but in this case, the Water being Living and having as Its intention that the person will never be able to become dry again, will do whatever is necessary to bring this about.

Anfd there is nowhere that a person can go that this water can't.


In love,
cj
This is saying that our singular work of 'diving in' saves us, or rather, puts us in position to become saved. Thereafter, the 'water' is effective ex opere operato, in itself.

This is a modified works-based salvation. In point of fact, there is no view of salvation that requires no works to appropriate salvation except universalism.

What some believe qualifies them for a get out of hell free card- their 'dive in, as it were'- is actually that which qualifies them to enter into judgement, not to escape

Judgement begins with the house of God.
And what takes place at the Judgement?
Read Matthew 25 for a Lamb's eye view.

Judgement is like this:
"You say you love me" says Jesus
"Now, let us examine and see if there be any truth in you."
1 John 2:4, 1 John 4:40

Love, like wisdom, is known by her children.
 
Oh bruised and batter fellow.....

Orthodox Christian said:
This is saying that our singular work of 'diving in' saves us, or rather, puts us in position to become saved. Thereafter, the 'water' is effective ex opere operato, in itself.

This is a modified works-based salvation. In point of fact, there is no view of salvation that requires no works to appropriate salvation except universalism.

Yes, "dived" certainly does suggest a bit of self-work,...... allow me to change it to "pushed" instead. For the Lord certainly "pushed" us in having chosen us from before we were even created.

Orthodox Christian said:
What some believe qualifies them for a get out of hell free card- their 'dive in, as it were'- is actually that which qualifies them to enter into judgement, not to escape

Whatever OC.

Orthodox Christian said:
Love, like wisdom, is known by her children.

What, a whole post and nothing about rectums or pigs?

Wass up wid chu man? Where the 'ol OC be at?

In love,
cj
 
cj said:
...What, a whole post and nothing about rectums or pigs?

Wass up wid chu man? Where the 'ol OC be at?

In love,
cj
Orthodox Christian said:
That's a rather disruptive and childish response. Should you have a genuine rebuttal, I'll respond.
:smt039


:smt066
 
The fact that He requires a choice to begin with means that He values freedom of choice. God doesn't force His will on people but allows them to make their own choices...even if it means turning from the faith we once knew.

From what I understand, OSAS firmly supports a person's freedom to choose his or her fate. One can only fall away if they never truly sort God in the first place. We have probably met a few people in life which say they want to be a certain way, but when push comes to shove they don't have the wear-for-all because it's not what they truly believed on the inside.

This is where I understand the OSAS saying that when a person falls away, they never truly chose Christ in the first place.

A person who is kept by Christ is someone who desires to be kept by him, even when their flesh tries to push him away. OSAS isn't for the faint hearted who think it's an easy trip to heaven and all they have to do is "say" they believe.

I've noticed on my own travels with people who agree with OSAS, most have had a controlling upbringing or had religion forced upon them. OSAS is like the band-aide they can apply to the wounds inflicted by some who've administered the legalism of religion without the Lord's grace and mercy. No-matter what has been done to them in the name of God, OSAS is the belief that no-man (not even the wounded man inside the individual) can pluck them from Christ's salvation.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this?

Like traditional religion works for those who prefer the legalistic structure, OSAS works for those who've been hurt by traditional religion in the wrong hands. It means that those who prefer tradition or freedom as OSAS suggests, both have access to the Lord's influence to fulfil the purpose he has set out for them.
 
cj said:
Oh bruised and batter fellow.....

Orthodox Christian said:
This is saying that our singular work of 'diving in' saves us, or rather, puts us in position to become saved. Thereafter, the 'water' is effective ex opere operato, in itself.

This is a modified works-based salvation. In point of fact, there is no view of salvation that requires no works to appropriate salvation except universalism.

Yes, "dived" certainly does suggest a bit of self-work,...... allow me to change it to "pushed" instead. For the Lord certainly "pushed" us in having chosen us from before we were even created.
So, according to this perspective, God chooses to 'push' some in, and not others. We get saved for having been shoved. Nice bargain there- and to boot, nothing we can do can undo this, since we didn't do it.
Neither did the dry do or not do, they just suffer the misfortune of not being selected.

I find this apologetic problematic in many, many ways.

CJ said:
Orthodox Christian said:
What some believe qualifies them for a get out of hell free card- their 'dive in, as it were'- is actually that which qualifies them to enter into judgement, not to escape

Whatever OC.
God's judgement isn't a "whatever." He commands us to have faith, and then allows us to go through loss, sickness, and sorrow to test said faith. He commands us to forgive, then allows us to be betrayed and abused. As Paul said
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

That's God's judgement at work. I thank Him that He has found me worthy to suffer, to be betrayed, to lose what is precious to me, to be persecuted and slandered among my 'friends'- these are marks of His approval.
"Whatever" is the response of one who has either never suffered, or simply is too conceited to acknowledge the point.

CJ said:
Orthodox Christian said:
Love, like wisdom, is known by her children.

What, a whole post and nothing about rectums or pigs?

Wass up wid chu man? Where the 'ol OC be at?
The first time I saw Forest Gump, I laughed when Forest's mama said "stupid is as stupid does," cuz I knew this was her cotton patch/homespun way of saying "wisdom is known by her children." But seeing your response above, hers is the appropriate one.
CJ said:
In love,
cj
Sometimes, love's last letter is a restraining order.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
So, according to this perspective, God chooses to 'push' some in, and not others.

Absolutely.

Orthodox Christian said:
We get saved for having been shoved. Nice bargain there- and to boot, nothing we can do can undo this, since we didn't do it.

No Of Fraudulent One,.... allow me to help others not become entangled in your attempted deceipt,...... we get saved because God loved us,.... His "shove" came as a issue of His love and as an act of His great wisdom and knowledge regarding the weakness of fallen men.

And this "shove" was initiated with the death of His beloved Son, and continued with His resurrection, ascension, and return as the life-giving Spirit who comes to dwell in our regenerated spirit.

Did ya get that Veiled One?

Orthodox Christian said:
Neither did the dry do or not do, they just suffer the misfortune of not being selected.

"Jacob I loved Esau I hated."

Orthodox Christian said:
I find this apologetic problematic in many, many ways.

This is as a result of the false doctrines you cling to. They have imprisoned you, shackling your soul by hardening your heart to the Life that dwells within your regenerated spirit.

Turn to your regenerated spirit OC, where God in His fulness dwells, and call on His Name.

Satan has ground in your soul, but he has none in your regenerated spirit.

Retreat to the safe place, the cleft in the Rock, turn to your regenerated spirit and call on His Name. Its the only way.

Orthodox Christian said:
God's judgement isn't a "whatever." He commands us to have faith, and then allows us to go through loss, sickness, and sorrow to test said faith.

No OC, God allows these things to reveal to us the weakness of our being so that we can turn to Him in desperation and be built up in His faith.

By gazing upon the Lord we are infused with His very Person, filled with His own overcoming faith. But being who we are, for a time we struggle with our selfish/independant desires and thus take our eyes off the Lord, and then like a branch that has been cut-off from the tree, we will eventually suffer from a lack of the nourishment needed to maintain our walk with Him.

God does "command" us to have something that He knows only He has.

What God does is command us to use what He has given us of His own richness.

God gives us faith and then tells us to use this faith.

Yet even then, God knows we will fail, for that which is needed so that this faith can be used/applied, the soul (mind, emotion, will) is fallen and must also be regenerated before it can be usefull for the living out of the faith He has given us.

And the way that our soul is regenerated is by our turning to our regenerated spirit, where God in all His fulness dwells as the supply for all our needs.

Orthodox Christian said:
He commands us to forgive, then allows us to be betrayed and abused.

Because our "forgiveness" is no more than a mockery of Him.

You think you have forgiven someone, yet, when they turn on you, as allowed by God, how quick you are to once more condemn them.

The truth is, it was only in the vanity of your words that you "forgave" anyone, in your heart the offense remained.

God knows this of all of us, and knows that the only way He can deal with it is to constantly reveal to us what manner of mockery our superficial speaking is.

Yet all the time, God is bringing us on deeper and deeper into Him.

Orthodox Christian said:
As Paul said
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

And what is this "treasure" in earthen vessels?......

It is Christ as the life-giving Spirit living in our regenerated spirit.

This treasure, the indwelling Christ, in us, the earthen vessels, is the divine source of the supply for the Christian life. It is by the excellent power of this treasure that the apostles as the ministers of the new covenant were capable of living a crucified life that the resurrection life of Christ, whom they ministered, might be manifested. Thus, they manifested the truth (v. 2) for the shining of the gospel.

Orthodox Christian said:
That's God's judgement at work. I thank Him that He has found me worthy to suffer, to be betrayed, to lose what is precious to me, to be persecuted and slandered among my 'friends'- these are marks of His approval.

How you love to beat yourself over the back so that men may be impressed.

You really think God "has found you worthy" of anything but death, as He has found us all.

You are utterly ignorant of what Paul is saying in these verses, and thus you use them to puff yourself up in your own conceit.

God is not "approving" you, He is killing you; this is the work of the cross, the cross kills.

How foolish and blind you flesh-feeding apostate doctrines have made you, that you would think to be nourished in your vanity from your dead and decaying flesh.

Orthodox Christian said:
"Whatever" is the response of one who has either never suffered, or simply is too conceited to acknowledge the point.

You know nothing of the circumstances of my life, and yet the flippant way in which you take the liberty to speak in your ignorance only serves as further proof that you reject the Spirit of truth in you ways and speaking.

"Whatever" is the response of one who is dismissing the shallow speaking of another.

Orthodox Christian said:
The first time I saw Forest Gump, I laughed when Forest's mama said "stupid is as stupid does," cuz I knew this was her cotton patch/homespun way of saying "wisdom is known by her children." But seeing your response above, hers is the appropriate one.

And yet again I say,...... should I be worried by the opinion of a man who smooches little pictures as he worships the wicked spirits behind them?

I think not.

Orthodox Christian said:
Love's last letter is occasionally a restraining order.

The time to come will be just that for those who chose to continue in the manner you have chosen.


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
Orthodox Christian said:
So, according to this perspective, God chooses to 'push' some in, and not others.

Absolutely.
And, by default, you say God chooses some to burn forever.
What utter heresy from the Lord of Flies


[quote="Orthodox Christian":5871a]We get saved for having been shoved. Nice bargain there- and to boot, nothing we can do can undo this, since we didn't do it.

No Of Fraudulent One, allow me to help others not become entangled in your attempted deceipt,...... we get saved because God loved us,.... His "shove" came as a issue of His love and as an act of His great wisdom and knowledge regarding the weakness of fallen men.
And, He therefore does not love the others. Foolish man, God loves the whole cosmos, including your corrupt soul.

"Jacob I loved Esau I hated."
This is your apologetic for God's eternal torment upon those He doesn't "choose?" Pathetic. Read the Hebrew and learn.

Orthodox Christian said:
I find this apologetic problematic in many, many ways.

This is as a result of the false doctrines you cling to. They have imprisoned you, shackling your soul by hardening your heart to the Life that dwells within your regenerated spirit.
I find it problematic because it's false, simple as that.

Turn to your regenerated spirit OC, where God in His fulness dwells, and call on His Name.
I'll turn to Him, not to me, thanks.



By gazing upon the Lord we are infused with His very Person, filled with His own overcoming faith. But being who we are, for a time we struggle with our selfish/independant desires and thus take our eyes off the Lord, and then like a branch that has been cut-off from the tree, we will eventually suffer from a lack of the nourishment needed to maintain our walk with Him.
Your testimony is like a clanging cymbal.

Orthodox Christian said:
He commands us to forgive, then allows us to be betrayed and abused.

Because our "forgiveness" is no more than a mockery of Him.

You think you have forgiven someone, yet, when they turn on you, as allowed by God, how quick you are to once more condemn them.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, you quite literally do not have a clue what you are speaking of

The truth is, it was only in the vanity of your words that you "forgave" anyone, in your heart the offense remained.
On the contrary- over time, it dissipates and is caught up into Him. Again, you are clueless. And don't think that it escapes my attention that you say "you," as if you have nothing to learn or consider in the matter.


Orthodox Christian said:
That's God's judgement at work. I thank Him that He has found me worthy to suffer, to be betrayed, to lose what is precious to me, to be persecuted and slandered among my 'friends'- these are marks of His approval.

How you love to beat yourself over the back so that men may be impressed.
Are you impressed?

You really think God "has found you worthy" of anything but death, as He has found us all.
You do not know the scriptures at all, with your false humility and super-spiritualizing argle bargle.

How foolish and blind you flesh-feeding apostate doctrines have made you, that you would think to be nourished in your vanity from your dead and decaying flesh.
What moronic strawman. I never claimed to be fed by my flesh.
I am fed by His rhema. It is my body, soul and spirit that are fed by His manna.


Orthodox Christian said:
"Whatever" is the response of one who has either never suffered, or simply is too conceited to acknowledge the point.

You know nothing of the circumstances of my life, and yet the flippant way in which you take the liberty to speak in your ignorance only serves as further proof that you reject the Spirit of truth in you ways and speaking.
Says the guy who tells me how and if I forgive.
I bet you miss the irony of this.



And yet again I say,...... should I be worried by the opinion of a man who smooches little pictures as he worships the wicked spirits behind them?

I think not.
This particular 'attack the man' has been used now three times running. Where is that rapier wit that you wielded against that hapless deacon while you disrupted that first communion? Cuz I'm not seeing it. I'm inclined to think someone else did the disrupting, and you stole the story cuz it's the kind of thing you'd like to say, if you had the wit or the courage to carry out your animosity.


Orthodox Christian said:
Love's last letter is occasionally a restraining order.

The time to come will be just that for those who chose to continue in the manner you have chosen.
Wow, that made no sense at all.

In love,
cj[/quote:5871a]
 
You know what OC, I going to leave you to your muck-hole.


Vic, thanks for the heads-up, it restrained me and cause an edit of this post.


In love,
cj
 
I was hoping to get an answer from Mr. Solo on this question.

Blessings
 
No real condumrum here.

John 3:16 makes it clear Jesus died FOR ALL the world's sins. That includes NON-Believers. But to accept his girt, (to paraphrase former Mets reliever, Tug McGraw :lol: )...ya' gotta believe.

A person is free to choose.
 
PHIL121 said:
No real condumrum here.

John 3:16 makes it clear Jesus died FOR ALL the world's sins. That includes NON-Believers. But to accept his girt, (to paraphrase former Mets reliever, Tug McGraw :lol: )...ya' gotta believe.

A person is free to choose.

It seems like you don't understand the question.
The conundrum is not for all professors of OSAS. Only those who say that in the Old Testament the mode of salvation was different and that OSAS didn't start until pentecost or after the resurrection. If you are not of this category, this particular conundrum won't likely bother you, if you think that salvation before the resurection was OSAS as well as after.
 
This may have been brought up before but I'm curious how the following word from Jesus fit into the OSAS theme. Of particular interest are the bolded parts.

Luke 8
5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.â€Â

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
 
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