Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[Chopper]

I think you know well enough by now that LIFE arises from the ash heap Chopper.

Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

A lot of times we get this idea we are trying to "save ourselves" but the opposite is the case. We are trying to ditch ourselves and seek only Him and His Perfection. Which only HE has to give.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

It may seem an odd turnabout to some, but by FAITH in Christ, we are to understand that technically, we don't even exist:

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are as much "nothing" as Judas is "nothing."

How much Grace and Mercy in Christ we will be led to share and see for others, such as Judas or our neighbors, will obviously vary, and that may very well be in accordance with how we see ourselves.

The "better" we see ourselves increases the probability of how much LESS we see others, such as Judas, our fellow believers, and our neighbors.

I like to see y'all as dead. No offense, but it really is 'necessary sight' for me to keep me from falling in judgment and the condemnation of the devil.

But in Christ, ALIVE, A Perfect Picture. Even though the painting isn't quite finished yet.

You said....

I think you know well enough by now that LIFE arises from the ash heap Chopper.

Yep I know because I'm really only a DIRT BAG.

 

[JohnDB]

Ok, point made, I agree.

I was making a point BUT with a question that I really wanted to discuss.

There's a difference between what Judas did and getting much needed funds to continue a ministry.

 

[Chopper]

I was making a point BUT with a question that I really wanted to discuss.

There's a difference between what Judas did and getting much needed funds to continue a ministry.

When I made my initial comment on Judas, I was thinking of this verse of Scripture....John 12:6 "This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." (KJV)

John Gill makes this remark...." Judas had the purse, into which was put whatsoever was ministered to Christ, for the common supply of him and his disciples, and for the relief of the poor."

Albert Barnes makes this comment....
"The word translated “bare” means literally “to carry as a burden.” Then it means “to carry away,” as in John_20:15; “If thou hast borne him hence.” Hence, it means to carry away as a thief does, and this is evidently its meaning here. It has this sense often in classic writers. Judas was a thief and stole what was put into the bag. The money he desired to be entrusted to him, that he might secretly enrich himself."

Therefore the question in my mind is....It looks like to me that Judas's lifestyle was being a thief. Dishonest, could not be trusted with money. 1Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (KJV)

This is why I questioned His true fidelity. Was it Jesus? Or was he in it for the money?

 

[JohnDB]

When I made my initial comment on Judas, I was thinking of this verse of Scripture....John 12:6 "This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." (KJV)

John Gill makes this remark...." Judas had the purse, into which was put whatsoever was ministered to Christ, for the common supply of him and his disciples, and for the relief of the poor."

Albert Barnes makes this comment....
"The word translated “bare” means literally “to carry as a burden.” Then it means “to carry away,” as in John_20:15; “If thou hast borne him hence.” Hence, it means to carry away as a thief does, and this is evidently its meaning here. It has this sense often in classic writers. Judas was a thief and stole what was put into the bag. The money he desired to be entrusted to him, that he might secretly enrich himself."

Therefore the question in my mind is....It looks like to me that Judas's lifestyle was being a thief. Dishonest, could not be trusted with money. 1Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (KJV)

This is why I questioned His true fidelity. Was it Jesus? Or was he in it for the money?

I don't think that you are wrong.
We always want more money...We want rich lifestyles. New vehicles, better houses, higher status, and better clothing. Just a little better than we have it now.
It's been true for centuries.

Think about what a Jew would believe about the Messiah. What would life be like living under His rule?...In His Kingdom?

What is it that we expect today out of Heaven other than God ruling completely?
No illness, no hunger, no need for better clothing, no exhaustion (my personal favorite) and no sadness or sorrow. No need for money...We pave the roads with gold there.

Why couldn't Judas believe that Jesus was the Messiah but have an agenda that was less than altruistic?

 

[Chopper]

I don't think that you are wrong.
We always want more money...We want rich lifestyles. New vehicles, better houses, higher status, and better clothing. Just a little better than we have it now.
It's been true for centuries.

Think about what a Jew would believe about the Messiah. What would life be like living under His rule?...In His Kingdom?

What is it that we expect today out of Heaven other than God ruling completely?
No illness, no hunger, no need for better clothing, no exhaustion (my personal favorite) and no sadness or sorrow. No need for money...We pave the roads with gold there.

Why couldn't Judas believe that Jesus was the Messiah but have an agenda that was less than altruistic?

You asked...."Think about what a Jew would believe about the Messiah. What would life be like living under His rule?...In His Kingdom?" Personally, I think the Jews were mainly interested in Messiah liberating Israel from Roman rule. As far as their religious life, I'm not sure if they thought that they would behave any different than they did under Moses rule.

We all want our needs fulfilled. Out of Heaven? Oh yes, what you listed is mans, including mine, honest desire. As far as Judas believing Jesus was the Messiah? Now that's a good question. There must have been lots of conversations between the Disciples especially after Peters admission that Jesus was the Son of God. I almost think that if Judas knew that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, he wouldn't have continued to be a thief. He saw the repentance of others and I believe that he really didn't care much about Jesus other than He was their Master and he needed to obey Him.

Probably Satan was busy in the mind of Judas prior entering him. The following verses, I've pondered many times about Judas....Matthew 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. 21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? 23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. 24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

At this point, it looks like Judas was just one of the Disciples. His problem was he liked money and was willing to steal it from the "bag". All the other Disciples, including Peter, had their problems (sins) as well as Judas. Apparently, Judas was the easiest target for Satan to try and destroy Jesus thru death of a cross.

 

[JLB]

The one you quoted in reply to me but didn't answer, oddly enough. Here it is again:

Here is my reply from the first time I answered this question, from post 1206.

Judas ended up losing his place in Gods kingdom, because he became a traitor.

Judas was appointed to sit on one of the twelve thrones along with the others.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas lost his place in God's kingdom.
Judas did not inherit the kingdom of God.
Judas did not inherit eternal life.

• Judas Iscariot became a traitor: a man who was a trusted friend and apostle of Jesus Christ, then later he betrayed Jesus, and fell from the place of leadership by transgression.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Here is my reply from the first time I answered this question, from post 1206.

Judas ended up losing his place in Gods kingdom, because he became a traitor.

Judas was appointed to sit on one of the twelve thrones along with the others.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas lost his place in God's kingdom.
Judas did not inherit the kingdom of God.
Judas did not inherit eternal life.

• Judas Iscariot became a traitor: a man who was a trusted friend and apostle of Jesus Christ, then later he betrayed Jesus, and fell from the place of leadership by transgression.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25



JLB

Matthew 27:3 "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

It looks like Judas repented and said he had sinned. Do you suppose he asked the Father for forgiveness? If so, we'll see him in Glory.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Matthew 27:3 "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

It looks like Judas repented and said he had sinned. Do you suppose he asked the Father for forgiveness? If so, we'll see him in Glory.

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 27:3 it is stated that Judas repented but the Greek word used for repented is "metameletheis". It does not have the meaning; "remorse for sinning against God" but remorse for the consequences of his deed, the death or betrayal of innocent blood.

The scripture that most are overlooking is John 17:12 where Judas is call "the son of perdition" by Jesus Christ, also in John 6:70 Jesus said to the twelve: " and one of you is a devil".

 

[Chopper]

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 27:3 it is stated that Judas repented but the Greek word used for repented is "metameletheis". It does not have the meaning; "remorse for sinning against God" but remorse for the consequences of his deed, the death or betrayal of innocent blood.

The scripture that most are overlooking is John 17:12 where Judas is call "the son of perdition" by Jesus Christ, also in John 6:70 Jesus said to the twelve: " and one of you is a devil".

Ah Ha dirtfarmer, good for you!! I was hoping that someone would counter my statement of the possibility of Judas entering the Kingdom. You are absolutely right. I have always liked Jesus' prayer/statement in John 17. Thank you for your heads up response.

 

[chessman]

Judas ended up losing his place in Gods kingdom, because he became a traitor.

I see. So your view is that Jesus was specifically meaning Judas plus the eleven disciples in Matt 19:28, then Jesus was simply wrong by assuring them that Judas would also sit on a throne after following Him.

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Matt 19:28 (NKJV)

I'm more prone to believing Jesus knew the Truth about Judas, spoke it always and assured that the Holy Spirit inspired John to record the Truth.

 

[smaller]

In Matthew 27:3 it is stated that Judas repented but the Greek word used for repented is "metameletheis". It does not have the meaning; "remorse for sinning against God" but remorse for the consequences of his deed, the death or betrayal of innocent blood.

The type of repentance Judas engaged in, Matt. 27:3, is synonymous to the form of repentance in 2 Cor. 12:21. There is little, if any, distinction in the above forms of repentance. The betrayal of innocent blood was quite obviously a problem under GOD'S LAW and Judas knew that.

We would do well to understand also that repentance is a Godly matter i.e. God in Christ is involved with any persons heart in repentance. It is not a stand alone matter, of just the person.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The scripture that most are overlooking is John 17:12 where Judas is call "the son of perdition" by Jesus Christ, also in John 6:70 Jesus said to the twelve: " and one of you is a devil".

This subject has not been overlooked at all in this thread. The facts that Judas' actions were not alone, of Judas only, but also of Satan has been well and thoroughly observed. Luke 22:3, John 13:2 & 27, etc. To see Judas and Satan, the devil, as the same entity is just ignorance on the part of the reader. When Jesus said one of you is a devil we'd be foolish not to see the actual DEVIL and mistake Judas for same. That methodology is simple ignorance.

As to Judas being the "son of perdition" that statement is NOT made anywhere in the scriptures.

There is another very common error that arises when people read terms such as "angel," "man" or "son" in the scriptures. These terms not only can but DO apply to "entities" other than MAN. Lucifer for example is noted as a MAN in Isa. 14:12 & 16. Most understand that Lucifer is a term for Satan, the devil. So man, in that application is not to a mere mortal.

It is the same when it comes to the term angel. It can apply to mankind, Holy angels and wicked angels. Technically speaking, 3 entirely DIFFERENT entity classes. The same can be said for children. Children do not just entail "human" children in the scriptures. The devil also has "children." John 8:44. And thusly the term "son" in the case of the "son of perdition" does not apply to Judas, but to the obvious OTHER party involved, which was Satan, the devil. This fact is verified by Paul when he brings up the "son of perdition" again in 2 Thes. 2:3 & 8-9, where the "son of perdition" is noted as that wicked, Satan. So we only need to do the obvious math on this subject and see Satan involved with Judas and AGAIN in the 2 Thes. citings from Paul.

This general observation will always give problems to the believers, when reading. Believers in general have a very hard time connecting their own sin to the devil, which John does for example in 1 John 3:8. There is a very real form of "resistance" that comes to the persons trying to make the above connections. They WILL be blinded to the obvious. Mark 4:15. It's a guarantee of the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

I see. So your view is that Jesus was specifically meaning Judas plus the eleven disciples in Matt 19:28, then Jesus was simply wrong by assuring them that Judas would also sit on a throne after following Him.

Makes no sense.

I think you have your logical fallacy so mixed up, that you don't even know which one of your Red Herring's you are attempting to saddle me with.

Instead of making things up, that I didn't say, why not try being honest enough to actually address what I have said.

My position is clear.

Jesus said these words to His twelve disciples:

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas followed Jesus for a while.

Three and one half years, then turned back from following Him, in which he became a traitor, betraying Jesus for money instead of following Him and being faithful and obedient.

• Judas lost His place of leadership in God's kingdom, having fell by transgression.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

The type of repentance Judas engaged in, Matt. 27:3, is synonymous to the form of repentance in 2 Cor. 12:21. There is little, if any, distinction in the above forms of repentance. The betrayal of innocent blood was quite obviously a problem under GOD'S LAW and Judas knew that.

We would do well to understand also that repentance is a Godly matter i.e. God in Christ is involved with any persons heart in repentance. It is not a stand alone matter, of just the person.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


This subject has not been overlooked at all in this thread. The facts that Judas' actions were not alone, of Judas only, but also of Satan has been well and thoroughly observed. Luke 22:3, John 13:2 & 27, etc. To see Judas and Satan, the devil, as the same entity is just ignorance on the part of the reader. When Jesus said one of you is a devil we'd be foolish not to see the actual DEVIL and mistake Judas for same. That methodology is simple ignorance.

As to Judas being the "son of perdition" that statement is NOT made anywhere in the scriptures.

There is another very common error that arises when people read terms such as "angel," "man" or "son" in the scriptures. These terms not only can but DO apply to "entities" other than MAN. Lucifer for example is noted as a MAN in Isa. 14:12 & 16. Most understand that Lucifer is a term for Satan, the devil. So man, in that application is not to a mere mortal.

It is the same when it comes to the term angel. It can apply to mankind, Holy angels and wicked angels. Technically speaking, 3 entirely DIFFERENT entity classes. The same can be said for children. Children do not just entail "human" children in the scriptures. The devil also has "children." John 8:44. And thusly the term "son" in the case of the "son of perdition" does not apply to Judas, but to the obvious OTHER party involved, which was Satan, the devil. This fact is verified by Paul when he brings up the "son of perdition" again in 2 Thes. 2:3 & 8-9, where the "son of perdition" is noted as that wicked, Satan. So we only need to do the obvious math on this subject and see Satan involved with Judas and AGAIN in the 2 Thes. citings from Paul.

This general observation will always give problems to the believers, when reading. Believers in general have a very hard time connecting their own sin to the devil, which John does for example in 1 John 3:8. There is a very real form of "resistance" that comes to the persons trying to make the above connections. They WILL be blinded to the obvious. Mark 4:15. It's a guarantee of the scriptures.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 27:3 repented is the Greek word " metameletheis" (strong 3338) which means regret that amounts to remorse

In 2 Corinthians 12:21 repented is the Greek word " metanoeo" (strong 3340) which means a change to the inner man.

We can have remorse and not have a change in the "inner" man, as Judas did, but to have a change of the inner man that also includes remorse

 

[JLB]

I'm more prone to believing Jesus knew the Truth about Judas, spoke it always and assured that the Holy Spirit inspired John to record the Truth.

Yes the truth the Holy Spirit inspired John to record teaches us Judas believed, and demonstrated he believed by following Jesus Christ, because he believed.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71


Judas believed, and demonstrated he believed by following Jesus and continued to follow Jesus when other disciples turned back from following Him, then became a traitor.

Judas did not believe to the end, not holding fast the word to the end, and ended up losing his place of leadership in God's Kingdom.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Makes no sense.

I think you have your logical fallacy so mixed up, that you don't even know which one of your Red Herring's you are attempting to saddle me with.

Instead of making things up, that I didn't say, why not try being honest enough to actually address what I have said.

My position is clear.

Jesus said these words to His twelve disciples:

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas followed Jesus for a while.

Three and one half years, then turned back from following Him, in which he became a traitor, betraying Jesus for money instead of following Him and being faithful and obedient.

• Judas lost His place of leadership in God's kingdom, having fell by transgression.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Was Matthais chosen by Jesus as was Paul?

 

[JLB]

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 27:3 it is stated that Judas repented but the Greek word used for repented is "metameletheis". It does not have the meaning; "remorse for sinning against God" but remorse for the consequences of his deed, the death or betrayal of innocent blood.

The scripture that most are overlooking is John 17:12 where Judas is call "the son of perdition" by Jesus Christ, also in John 6:70 Jesus said to the twelve: " and one of you is a devil".

Jesus said to Peter - Get behind me Satan...

Was Peter a devil?

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

The context dictates the meaning of this word.

Devil - Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
      
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
   

Judas was siding with the devil, just as Peter was, when Peter was opposing the will of God for Jesus.



JLB

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 27:3 repented is the Greek word " metameletheis" (strong 3338) which means regret that amounts to remorse

In 2 Corinthians 12:21 repented is the Greek word " metanoeo" (strong 3340) which means a change to the inner man.

If you read the Strongs footnotes you'll see they are synonymous terms. Trying to "filet" remorse and claim they come from different types meat doesn't work. It's all cut from the same piece of meat. Repentance in any form is from God, regardless. Acts 17:24-25.

So, you said that Judas (falsely supposed) to be a devil was overlooked. It was not. I've put up several posts in this thread identifying the fact that Judas and "a devil" are not the same beings. There is a human being, Judas, and there is a devil, SATAN. These are not the same "entities." When Jesus said one of you is a devil we might think to look to the obvious DEVIL that scriptures provide us in these equations. Luke 22:3, John 13:2 & 27. We literally have to HIGH JUMP over and totally ignore the obvious DEVIL that is staring us square in the face from the scripture citings to try to make Judas a devil. That entire methodology is laughable when we can't even pinpoint the fact that there is a REAL DEVIL to observe in the scriptural equations that is NOT JUDAS. The only amazing thing to watch is people who avoid making the obvious connection. I mean really how blind to the obvious can we be?

Secondly, the son of perdition observations have also been made many times. Nobody has really addressed the facts yet, that Judas IS NOT stated as being that "son." That is only a false assumption on the part of the readers who miss the first fact above. Because they do not see THE REAL DEVIL in the equations of Judas they merely and simply make the SAME MISTAKE again when reading about the 'son of perdition,' thinking falsely that it's Judas when Paul obviously shows us otherwise in 2 Thes. 2:3 & 8-9

If there is one notation that just about everyone in this thread has overlooked, is that all of the crucifixion events were not the plans of man in any case, but the PLANS OF GOD, noted specifically by Peter in Acts 4:26-28. This fact has been avoided like the plague in this thread.

It was Gods Own Intentions to SMITE THE SHEPHERD. Zech 13:7, Matt 26:31, Mark 14:27. God Himself said this, from the mouths of his own prophets.

The people like Judas who betrayed Him, ALL the disciples who forsook Him, the men whipped Him, parted His clothing, put the thorn crown on His Head, nailed Him to the cross, pierced His Side, Pontius Pilate, Herod, the Jews, the gentiles, were ALL simply pawns of Gods Own Far Greater Will, which WILL could not then, nor can not now, be thwarted.

So, the freewill mind, not being able, because of their false doctrine which has to BLAME AND ACCUSE MAN ONLY and must also ignore both the roles of God and devils can not accept that it was the Will of God Himself to smite the Shepherd. They are only blind to the Greater Will. Which I believe is also Gods Intentions, to blind them. Acts 17:24-25, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, Mark 4:15.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes the truth the Holy Spirit inspired John to record teaches us Judas believed, and demonstrated he believed by following Jesus Christ, because he believed.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71


Judas believed, and demonstrated he believed by following Jesus and continued to follow Jesus when other disciples turned back from following Him, then became a traitor.

Judas did not believe to the end, not holding fast the word to the end, and ended up losing his place of leadership in God's Kingdom.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Explain your thoughts on John 6:64: " But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not and who should betray him." In the same context of that scripture, in verse 70 -71 Jesus stated that one of his disciples was "a devil" . In verse 71 he identified who that person was, Judas Iscariot.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Was Matthais chosen by Jesus as was Paul?

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25

Matthias was chosen by the Lord Jesus, as was Judas.

Judas, who was originally destined to sit on one of the twelve thrones, was chosen by Jesus.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

He fell from his position of authority and leadership, when he became a traitor.

• Saul of Tarsus was persecuting the Church, then became a believer, and an apostle.
• Judas was chosen, then fell, and became a traitor.

A person can indeed be predestined to be in the book of life, then later become blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

and again

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psalm 69:28

• Saul overcame and became Paul the Apostle and was faithful to the end.
• Judas did not overcome, but fell into temptation, and ended up becoming a traitor, in which he lost his place in God's kingdom.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

How can someone become a traitor who was never in God's Kingdom?



JLB

 

[Chopper]

I see. So your view is that Jesus was specifically meaning Judas plus the eleven disciples in Matt 19:28, then Jesus was simply wrong by assuring them that Judas would also sit on a throne after following Him.

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Matt 19:28 (NKJV)

I'm more prone to believing Jesus knew the Truth about Judas, spoke it always and assured that the Holy Spirit inspired John to record the Truth.

Hi chessman. What do you think about this verse made by Jesus....John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.