What's new
  • This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

Judas Iscariot

Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,720
Gender
Male
#1
dirtfarmer here

There are some that say that Judas was saved and then, when he betrayed Jesus, lost his salvation. It is my understanding from scripture that Judas Iscariot was never saved.

John 6:70-71 states: " Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil" The reason "a" is a different color is because it is not in the original. Devil is translated from the greek "diabolis" devil, the major personified spirit of evil, the foe of God.
v 71 " He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Judas Iscariot was the "son of perdition", according to scripture and in Acts 1:25 it is stated; "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place". His own place has the meaning of, the place which was his particular place only.


Do this verses give any reason to believe that Judas Iscariot was ever saved? In John 17:12 this is what Jesus said about Judas.
" While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me have I kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture might be fulfilled."
The play on words between the first "kept"; I preserved them, and the second "kept" ; I guarded them. The first is salvation but the second has nothing to do with salvation, but kept them alive, guarded them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3, " Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

From these scripture can was can we say that Judas Iscariot will be the counterfeit that Satan will present to the world as savior during the tribulation and sit in the temple and saying that he is God?
 

Papa Zoom

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
8,883
Gender
Male
#3
dirtfarmer here

There are some that say that Judas was saved and then, when he betrayed Jesus, lost his salvation. It is my understanding from scripture that Judas Iscariot was never saved.

John 6:70-71 states: " Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil" The reason "a" is a different color is because it is not in the original. Devil is translated from the greek "diabolis" devil, the major personified spirit of evil, the foe of God.
v 71 " He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Judas Iscariot was the "son of perdition", according to scripture and in Acts 1:25 it is stated; "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place". His own place has the meaning of, the place which was his particular place only.


Do this verses give any reason to believe that Judas Iscariot was ever saved? In John 17:12 this is what Jesus said about Judas.
" While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me have I kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture might be fulfilled."
The play on words between the first "kept"; I preserved them, and the second "kept" ; I guarded them. The first is salvation but the second has nothing to do with salvation, but kept them alive, guarded them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3, " Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

From these scripture can was can we say that Judas Iscariot will be the counterfeit that Satan will present to the world as savior during the tribulation and sit in the temple and saying that he is God?
I fully agree with you on this matter.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#5
1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

It's not a matter of Judas 'being saved', but rather did he remain in Christ?

Being saved and salvation has been so twisted over the years into something it is not - so that people trust is something rather than someone.

Was Judas someone who God chose, gave to Christ, and who Christ accepted? If Christ accepted him, was Judas with Christ or not?

Did Judas turn away in unbelief when the other disciples turned away in unbelief?

"Devil" simply means - a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer.

"Choose" means -
to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

  1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

  2. choosing one for an office

  3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

 
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,720
Gender
Male
#6
1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

It's not a matter of Judas 'being saved', but rather did he remain in Christ?

Being saved and salvation has been so twisted over the years into something it is not - so that people trust is something rather than someone.

Was Judas someone who God chose, gave to Christ, and who Christ accepted? If Christ accepted him, was Judas with Christ or not?

Did Judas turn away in unbelief when the other disciples turned away in unbelief?

"Devil" simply means - a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer.

"Choose" means -
to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

  1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

  2. choosing one for an office

  3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Was Pharaoh saved? He was chosen,"raised up", by God. To be chosen is not the same as receiving salvation.
Romans 9:17 " For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

To assume that Judas was saved because he was chosen is not proper exegesis of scripture. The son of perdition was chosen by Jesus that scripture might be fulfilled.
 

JohnDB

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
4,995
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#7
Jesus said Judas was lost ..
But think just a minute about something.

Judas believed in Jesus. Judas believed that Jesus is God's son. Judas knew that he was hanging out with God...that was his intention. He believed that he was on God's side.
Jesus (until the end) never once chastised him personally unlike Phillip, Thomas, Peter and the rest. He likely believed that he was doing better than the others...in fact he was tasked with carrying the collective purse. (A bit of honor and prestige) He was given an extra assignment over and above the others were. He had done miracles in Jesus' name like all the others...

But...
He was The Son of Perdition prophesied about centuries ago. He was hopelessly lost...all the time believing that he was in great Spiritual condition.

Judas' major malfunction was likely that he never once thought that he could be wrong. Why would he?
And today we see this same attitude. Even in ourselves. And to me, this is the scariest thing.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#8
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Was Pharaoh saved? He was chosen,"raised up", by God. To be chosen is not the same as receiving salvation.
Romans 9:17 " For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

To assume that Judas was saved because he was chosen is not proper exegesis of scripture. The son of perdition was chosen by Jesus that scripture might be fulfilled.
There is a difference between raising a man to a position of power, and choosing a man to give to His Son.

You cannot compare Judas with Pharoah in this regard.

Being 'saved' is not a matter of something that is done, but of a position one has.

Pharoah was raised up in power over the land of egypt(symbolically sin), Judas was chosen by God and put in Christ - Judas belonged to Christ, Pharoah did not.

Luke 12
22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on.
23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.
24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!
25 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
26 If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest?
27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!
29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried.
30 For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Did God give the kingdom to Jesus disciples?

Acts 1
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,
16 "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."

Does a person have a share in the ministry of the Gospel if they are not one of Christ's?
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#9
But think just a minute about something.

Judas believed in Jesus. Judas believed that Jesus is God's son. Judas knew that he was hanging out with God...that was his intention. He believed that he was on God's side.
Jesus (until the end) never once chastised him personally unlike Phillip, Thomas, Peter and the rest. He likely believed that he was doing better than the others...in fact he was tasked with carrying the collective purse. (A bit of honor and prestige) He was given an extra assignment over and above the others were. He had done miracles in Jesus' name like all the others...

But...
He was The Son of Perdition prophesied about centuries ago. He was hopelessly lost...all the time believing that he was in great Spiritual condition.

Judas' major malfunction was likely that he never once thought that he could be wrong. Why would he?
And today we see this same attitude. Even in ourselves. And to me, this is the scariest thing.
When we read that Jesus said he was "lost", in context Jesus was speaking about the ones who He had kept for His ministry time and had given all the things He stated previously in that discourse.

Judas wasn't "lost" from the beginning, he was lost from the twelve. He was a part of Christs "little flock". Luke 12
 

JohnDB

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
4,995
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#10
When we read that Jesus said he was "lost", in context Jesus was speaking about the ones who He had kept for His ministry time and had given all the things He stated previously in that discourse.

Judas wasn't "lost" from the beginning, he was lost from the twelve. He was a part of Christs "little flock". Luke 12
According to Isaiah he was lost before he was born.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#11
According to Isaiah he was lost before he was born.
Judas, or people in General? Everyone is born 'lost'/alienated from God.

Judas was a friend and trusted companion of Christ.

Psalm 41:9 (ESV)
Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.

Jesus spoke of Judas being lost from the flock, what does Isaiah say?
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,720
Gender
Male
#12
But think just a minute about something.

Judas believed in Jesus. Judas believed that Jesus is God's son. Judas knew that he was hanging out with God...that was his intention. He believed that he was on God's side.
Jesus (until the end) never once chastised him personally unlike Phillip, Thomas, Peter and the rest. He likely believed that he was doing better than the others...in fact he was tasked with carrying the collective purse. (A bit of honor and prestige) He was given an extra assignment over and above the others were. He had done miracles in Jesus' name like all the others...

But...
He was The Son of Perdition prophesied about centuries ago. He was hopelessly lost...all the time believing that he was in great Spiritual condition.

Judas' major malfunction was likely that he never once thought that he could be wrong. Why would he?
And today we see this same attitude. Even in ourselves. And to me, this is the scariest thing.
hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

Something to ponder: Mark 1:24, the "unclean spirit" said, " I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." Matthew 8:29, " And behold they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Luke 4:34, "Saying, Let us alone; What have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." It is not knowing who Jesus is that brings salvation or makes one saved, but believing(trusting) that he died in our place and paid our sin debt is what brings salvation.
Now ,I ask you, was it possible that Judas Iscariot was looking to the time that Christ was to be crucified on the cross, or was his only concern the bag of money that he was trusted with. Jesus called him "the son of perdition( destruction)
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#13
Matthew 10
1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.
9 Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts,
10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food.
11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.
12 As you enter the house, greet it.
13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.
15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
16 "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles.
19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Can satan cast out satan?

Is someone Christ's sheep who really isn't?

Does the Spirit of God speak through someone who is not His?

Matthew 12
25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,720
Gender
Male
#14
Matthew 10
1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.
9 Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts,
10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food.
11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.
12 As you enter the house, greet it.
13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.
15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
16 "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles.
19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Can satan cast out satan?

Is someone Christ's sheep who really isn't?

Does the Spirit of God speak through someone who is not His?

Matthew 12
25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Since you believe that Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, was saved, even before the Holy Ghost indwelled anyone, we are at a stalemate. I find no scripture that confirms that he was saved. I do find scripture that he had his own place that he went to after death, according to Acts 1:25. Not only that, but in John 6:64 it is stated that Jesus knew from the beginning who didn't believe and who would betray him. I also read from scripture that Pharaoh was used by God for his purpose and was not one of His. We have to include Cyrus ( Isaiah 45:1-6), one that was not one of God's but was used for His purpose as was Judas Iscariot. It is stated in John 6:70-71, that Judas Iscariot was "a" devil and that he would betray him.

At this point I will end my discussion of Judas Iscariot with you. It seems to be turning into a "you said, I said" disagreement that serves to no purpose to bring Glory to the Lord.

dirtfarmer
 

JohnDB

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
4,995
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#15
The battle for OSAS vx osnas isn't answered by Judas. But God obviously knows the future.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,720
Gender
Male
#16
The battle for OSAS vx osnas isn't answered by Judas. But God obviously knows the future.
hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

I agree with what you have posted, it was never a discussion of OSAS or OSNAS. It was a discussion of whether Judas Iscariot was saved. It is my belief that he never was saved.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,084
#17
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Since you believe that Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, was saved, even before the Holy Ghost indwelled anyone, we are at a stalemate. I find no scripture that confirms that he was saved. I do find scripture that he had his own place that he went to after death, according to Acts 1:25. Not only that, but in John 6:64 it is stated that Jesus knew from the beginning who didn't believe and who would betray him. I also read from scripture that Pharaoh was used by God for his purpose and was not one of His. We have to include Cyrus ( Isaiah 45:1-6), one that was not one of God's but was used for His purpose as was Judas Iscariot. It is stated in John 6:70-71, that Judas Iscariot was "a" devil and that he would betray him.

At this point I will end my discussion of Judas Iscariot with you. It seems to be turning into a "you said, I said" disagreement that serves to no purpose to bring Glory to the Lord.

dirtfarmer
That's fine. I don't find it to be difficult to understand. There is plenty of information that we have to know that Judas was one of Christs. So if he was one, and having salvation is based on being His, then if we doubt his placement what's to stop us from doubting ours?

Trying to compare Judas with others who were used by God will always fall short - it's not right. There are so many things that those people you listed and Judas do not have in common.

God knows from the beginning that Adam would sin, yet He made him. God knows a lot of things, but that does not stop Him from doing what He does.

God knows a lot of people will deny Christ, does that mean Christ did not die for their sins?

We cannot turn our misunderstanding into doubt. You define saved as past tense, and I believe it is present tense. So when you describe it as past tense then it will not make sense how Judas was 'saved' before the outpouring of the Spirit into us.

We know that people are saved, are being saved, through faith. If Judas never had faith, then he never had salvation. If he did have it, then salvation was there - but he rejected it.

From Christ's own description of sending out His flock, His sheep, in the authority of His name - He sent out twelve and Judas was named as one.

If salvation is based on more than Christ then it's a works based salvation. If a person wants to say Judas was not saved because he did not 'do' something then all I can say is their focus is wrong.
 

JohnDB

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
4,995
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#18
hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

I agree with what you have posted, it was never a discussion of OSAS or OSNAS. It was a discussion of whether Judas Iscariot was saved. It is my belief that he never was saved.
The term "saved" as in the past tense of a future action because God is faithful and doesn't not keep promises is somewhat misleading... Especially in this case.

Judas was foretold to be destroyed. Not by name but by actions.
So...he actually wasn't ever really "saved". He also was not really "lost" as Jesus said so that scriptures could be fulfilled.

He was exactly who and what he was going to be.
 

JohnDB

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
4,995
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#20
Ok John, you got me scratching my head on this. What do you mean by this statement?
It's a statement from one of Jesus' prayers in Gethsemane.
John 17:12
 
Last edited: