Judas Iscariot

[JLB]

I honestly do not think its right to say that Jesus could have saved Judas - but He didn't. That means that God chooses some to be unable to receive salvation.

What did Jesus do for the others, that He didn't do for Judas?

For your statement to be true, Jesus would have to have done more for the others, while neglecting Judas.

To me, that idea violates the character of God, which means He does show partiality.

For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:11


JLB

 

[Nathan]

What did Jesus do for the others, that He didn't do for Judas?

For your statement to be true, Jesus would have to have done more for the others, while neglecting Judas.

To me, that idea violates the character of God, which means He does show partiality.

For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:11


JLB

The statement of mine you quoted does not mean what you think it says.

I was making the statement to reflect what you said - because God does not show partiality.

I was responding to the post previous to mine when making that statement.

 

[JLB]

The statement of mine you quoted does not mean what you think it says.

I was making the statement to reflect what you said - because God does not show partiality.

I was responding to the post previous to mine when making that statement.

Ok, sorry that I misunderstood you.




JLB

 

[JLB]

You still don't understand backslidden.

Sure you'll be somewhat out f fellowship.....but you'll remain saved.

I know what you mean, whenever discussing this topic, I always seem to be the one who "doesn't understand", even though I took the time to present the scriptures, and listed the verses that make my point with bullet points for all to see the actual language used.

Yet, you don't even bother to use any scripture or even comment, about the scriptures I gave you.

• Please point out the phrase or verse from these passages that says "we will be somewhat out of fellowship, but still remain saved".

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
• lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Peter says it this way:


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

• after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ died once, making the perfect sacrifice for all time.

I totally agree.

Hebrews 5:9 (ESV)
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

However, it is only in Christ that this perpetual forgiveness is found.

Our sins were forgiven at the Cross. The blood of Christ is applied to those in Christ. He is the propitiation of our sins.

If we turn from Him, rejecting His blood, then it is not upon us - there is no other way of forgiveness.

Yes sir.

As long as we believe in His one perfect sacrifice, and so believing we come to Him, and confess our sin and ask His forgiveness, we will be forgiven.

• In fact He teaches us the principle of forgiveness, through confessing the sin, and repenting.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

again

3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4


7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:9


With this understanding we should also conclude that a young christian is not expected to do what an older one in the Lord is.

At the same time those who are older should walk as an example and train up the younger ones, to walk in the Spirit, and crucify the flesh, as well as, teach them to stay away from ungodly friends, and family, who practice doing the wrong thing, in the wrong place, with the wrong people.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Please point out the phrase or verse from these passages that says "we will be somewhat out of fellowship, but still remain saved".

1 Cor 3:15. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[JLB]

1 Cor 3:15. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The words "fellowship" of "saved" are not even mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:15.

"we will be somewhat out of fellowship, but still remain saved".

The work is people.

If anyone's work is burned, the worker will suffer the loss of reward, but the worker will be saved, not the work.

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:15-17

• If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

More context:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God

JLB

 

[jaybird]

if Judas was such a bad guy why did Satan have to possess him in order to get him to betray Jesus?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That's fine. I don't find it to be difficult to understand. There is plenty of information that we have to know that Judas was one of Christs. So if he was one, and having salvation is based on being His, then if we doubt his placement what's to stop us from doubting ours?

Trying to compare Judas with others who were used by God will always fall short - it's not right. There are so many things that those people you listed and Judas do not have in common.

God knows from the beginning that Adam would sin, yet He made him. God knows a lot of things, but that does not stop Him from doing what He does.

God knows a lot of people will deny Christ, does that mean Christ did not die for their sins?

We cannot turn our misunderstanding into doubt. You define saved as past tense, and I believe it is present tense. So when you describe it as past tense then it will not make sense how Judas was 'saved' before the outpouring of the Spirit into us.

We know that people are saved, are being saved, through faith. If Judas never had faith, then he never had salvation. If he did have it, then salvation was there - but he rejected it.

From Christ's own description of sending out His flock, His sheep, in the authority of His name - He sent out twelve and Judas was named as one.

If salvation is based on more than Christ then it's a works based salvation. If a person wants to say Judas was not saved because he did not 'do' something then all I can say is their focus is wrong.

This post is obviously an OSAS debate.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


Jesus taught the same thing:

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

A Sheep who belongs to the Shepherd, that becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



JLB

Now it is a full fledged OSAS debate.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Judas Iscariot said, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood".
But instead of turning to God and repenting of his sin, he goes and kills himself.

Where is the glory of God in this?

And he always called Jesus "rabbi", he never called him "Lord" as the others did.

Saved?
Really.....

 

[JLB]

Judas Iscariot said, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood".
But instead of turning to God and repenting of his sin, he goes and kills himself.

Where is the glory of God in this?

And he always called Jesus "rabbi", he never called him "Lord" as the others did.

Saved?
Really.....

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


JLB

Luke 9:50;
Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” 50“Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

 

[Justicewolf]

I often wondered at Judas' lot.
Had he not been allowed to leave the upper room by Jesus, who told him to go and do what he had to do, how would Jesus have then come to be judged and later crucified? So as to fulfill his fathers mission of saving the world by his blood on the last sin altar.

 

[JLB]

Luke 9:50;
Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” 50“Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Does this scripture say those who were casting out demons were unbelievers? Certainly not!

Let's try again.

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


Scripture reference -

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10



JLB

 

[Justicewolf]

Does this scripture say those who were casting out demons were unbelievers? Certainly not!

Let's try again.

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


Scripture reference -

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10



JLB

Are Gentiles, non-Jews" not numbered among the sheep of the house of Israel?

 

[JLB]

Are Gentiles, non-Jews" not numbered among the sheep of the house of Israel?

The topic we are discussing is Judas Iscariot.

My question was:

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The topic we are discussing is Judas Iscariot.

My question was:

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


JLB

I have to believe that to be true since I believe Judas was never saved.
Judas had to be part of the group so he could fulfill prophecy in the end.
Since Jesus said "I will make the rocks cry out if necessary", then he could certainly make Judas preach.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Does this scripture say those who were casting out demons were unbelievers? Certainly not!

Let's try again.

Do you believe Jesus empowers and sends "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel to the lost, as well as cast out devils, and heal the sick (which are signs that follow those who believe)?


Scripture reference -

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10



JLB

So you believe that born again Christians can be demon possessed.
Do you have Scripture for that?

 

[JLB]

I have to believe that to be true since I believe Judas was never saved.

Yes sir, I see that.

However I was asking about "unbelievers" being empowered and sent to cast out devils, heal the sick, preach the Gospel to the lost....

I never mentioned "saved".

Do you believe Judas ever "believed"?

Here is an example of some unbelievers casting out devils.

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We[a]exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them,so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Acts 19:13-16

I believe Judas did believe, for a while, then fell away and in the end he betrayed Jesus.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB