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Judas Iscariot

JLB

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Here's the best answer of the thread: I don't know and neither do you. But God knows and that's all that matters.

God reveals His truth and knowledge for us in the scriptures, as well as His holy Spirit that teaches us.

It's up to us to study and add to our faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge....

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9



JLB
 

Papa Zoom

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God reveals His truth and knowledge for us in the scriptures, as well as His holy Spirit that teaches us.

It's up to us to study and add to our faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge....

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9



JLB
I have studied. And what I know is that your knowledge, as well as mine and everyone else on the planet, is limited. Regardless of claims otherwise. We speculate. Some things we know. Some we don't. Often we don't even know the difference. The above verse has nothing to do with my previous point.
 

WIP

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What then is the penalty according to scripture for such betrayal?
Death.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:17 NKJV

It wasn't the consumption of the fruit that resulted in death, it was the sin of disobedience.

For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 NKJV
 
J

Justicewolf

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Death.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:17 NKJV

It wasn't the consumption of the fruit that resulted in death, it was the sin of disobedience.

For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 NKJV
True. For the unbeliever. Not for the redeemed.
 

JLB

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I have studied. And what I know is that your knowledge, as well as mine and everyone else on the planet, is limited. Regardless of claims otherwise. We speculate. Some things we know. Some we don't. Often we don't even know the difference. The above verse has nothing to do with my previous point.
I have yet to see anyone on this forum claim that they have all knowledge.

The simple truth is we can read what Jesus said and either believe it or not.

If you or anyone on this planet believes Jesus disciples and sends out unbelievers to represent Him, and demonstrate His power and authority, then I for one, would certainly like to know where this idea comes from.


JLB
 
J

Justicewolf

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God reveals His truth and knowledge for us in the scriptures, as well as His holy Spirit that teaches us.

It's up to us to study and add to our faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge....

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9



JLB
Amen and amen.
I have yet to see anyone on this forum claim that they have all knowledge.

The simple truth is we can read what Jesus said and either believe it or not.

If you or anyone on this planet believes Jesus disciples and sends out unbelievers to represent Him, and demonstrate His power and authority, then I for one, would certainly like to know where this idea comes from.


JLB
It would require scripture to prove. Great observation. I look forward to what is offered in response to the challenge.( i.e I for one , would certainly like to know where this idea comes from)
 
W

whatgoeshere?

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Death.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:17 NKJV

It wasn't the consumption of the fruit that resulted in death, it was the sin of disobedience.

For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 NKJV
Those who are in Christ do not face death when they err in their life after having accepted Christ. They don't betray Christ when they are in Christ and his is their advocate with the father. Who has put all their sins under his son's sacrificial blood for all time because he first called them into his grace. And then sealed them with his holy spirit forever.
 

JLB

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They don't betray Christ when they are in Christ
How could someone "betray" Christ if they are not His? :sadin Covenant with Him)

Make no sense.

Only those who are His, can betray Him.

Example: only a wife can "betray" or be unfaithful to her husband.

If a woman is not married to a man she is free of obligation to be faithful to him.


JLB
 
J

Justicewolf

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How could someone "betray" Christ if they are not His? :sadin Covenant with Him)

Make no sense.

Only those who are His, can betray Him.

Example: only a wife can "betray" or be unfaithful to her husband.

If a woman is not married to a man she is free of obligation to be faithful to him.


JLB
Faithfulness in a dating relationship isn't an obligation?
When we're saved in Christ because and only because of God's grace, how can we betray Christ?
 

JLB

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Faithfulness in a dating relationship isn't an obligation?

Can you show us from the scriptures, where our relationship with Christ is "dating"?

When we're saved in Christ because and only because of God's grace, how can we betray Christ?
Again, the only way a person can "betray" Christ is if they are in [marriage] relationship to Him, just as a woman is joined in marriage relationship to her husband.

A person who is not in [marriage] relationship can not "betray" that person as there is no obligation.

2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Romans 7:2-3



JLB
 
W

whatgoeshere?

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Woa, there's some very unusual terminology going there. Where is the scripture that says those redeemed in Christ are married to Christ?
 

JLB

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Woa, there's some very unusual terminology going there. Where is the scripture that says those redeemed in Christ are married to Christ?
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:1-4

  • Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead...

again

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

again


15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

  • But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.



JLB
 
J

Justicewolf

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Can you show us from the scriptures, where our relationship with Christ is "dating"?
You weren't making your observation concerning Christ. Our relationship with Christ isn't a marriage either. In any case, in human relationship, fidelity, loyalty, honor, are necessary out of respect for one another. That can translate into faith in Christ of course. But marriage, in that how it is defined in the bible? No. We're not married to Christ. That's what happens with RCC nuns. Not Protestants.



Again, the only way a person can "betray" Christ is if they are in [marriage] relationship to Him, just as a woman is joined in marriage relationship to her husband.
No, but since you insist that's how you need to see your faith.
The analogy is in error due to translation across the ages. It isn't a marriage, and the analogy you've made , husband, wife, is quite frankly gross. Because the Christian doesn't sex Jesus as a wife and husband do one another in an actual , bible defined, marriage.

The rest of your remarks concern the errant translation, insisting on the analogy of marriage. As I've said, that is wrong. And for another matter in itself, we cannot betray Christ.
There is a teaching out there I have heard spoken of. That which says any mistake or transgression a Christian makes takes them out of their redemptive state. That's garbage. Not scripture. It appears to be of the flavor of belief that is being promoted by some. It isn't scriptural. It is false.
 

JohnDB

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You weren't making your observation concerning Christ. Our relationship with Christ isn't a marriage either. In any case, in human relationship, fidelity, loyalty, honor, are necessary out of respect for one another. That can translate into faith in Christ of course. But marriage, in that how it is defined in the bible? No. We're not married to Christ. That's what happens with RCC nuns. Not Protestants.



No, but since you insist that's how you need to see your faith.
The analogy is in error due to translation across the ages. It isn't a marriage, and the analogy you've made , husband, wife, is quite frankly gross. Because the Christian doesn't sex Jesus as a wife and husband do one another in an actual , bible defined, marriage.

The rest of your remarks concern the errant translation, insisting on the analogy of marriage. As I've said, that is wrong. And for another matter in itself, we cannot betray Christ.
There is a teaching out there I have heard spoken of. That which says any mistake or transgression a Christian makes takes them out of their redemptive state. That's garbage. Not scripture. It appears to be of the flavor of belief that is being promoted by some. It isn't scriptural. It is false.
Many scriptures point to marriage as a symbol of our relationship with God.
Physical intimacy is a very small part of the relationship between a husband and wife...and isn't really a part of what is discussed or intended in scripture. Although an unfaithful wife is seen as a harlot and prostitute seeking only physical pleasures versus the solid good life if faithful. The book of Hosea is all about this.

And yet other than gratuitous assertions we have yet to see proofs of your arguments.
 

JLB

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You weren't making your observation concerning Christ. Our relationship with Christ isn't a marriage either. In any case, in human relationship, fidelity, loyalty, honor, are necessary out of respect for one another. That can translate into faith in Christ of course. But marriage, in that how it is defined in the bible? No. We're not married to Christ. That's what happens with RCC nuns. Not Protestants.

Here are the scriptures again, that I posted for you, that shows we are married to Christ.


Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:1-4

  • Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead...

again


31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32



The only way a person can betray Christ, is if they are "in Christ", joined to Him and one spirit with Him.


15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

  • But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.



JLB
 

JohnDB

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Typology. Long an issue in reading scriptures.
Years ago I found an article that helped explain the errant notion that we're to have a relationship with Christ like unto that of married couples to one another. Jesus never said any such thing.

Is Marriage Really an Illustration of Christ and the Church?
January 16, 2013 by Rachel Held Evans
OK...
This lady wrote opinion books...and this after writing a comedy blog for a newspaper for free. (Because they weren't going to pay her)
On top of this...
She is a liberal Episcopalian. They don't even adhere to scriptures. She may have made a lot of money selling books but she has no scholarship for theological studies or scriptures in her resume. She does have an English degree and a writing degree.
Her opinions aren't relevant to this discussion as a qualified person with whom to base an eternal decision upon.
 
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I have yet to see anyone on this forum claim that they have all knowledge.

The simple truth is we can read what Jesus said and either believe it or not.

If you or anyone on this planet believes Jesus disciples and sends out unbelievers to represent Him, and demonstrate His power and authority, then I for one, would certainly like to know where this idea comes from.


JLB
John 6:64~~New American Standard Bible
"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.