Bible Study Just What ARE Pentecostal "Tongues"?

[BradtheImpaler]

Sorry, I didn't say it, Paul did, and behind him, the Holy Spirit that "God-breathed" it to Paul. Once again, I will refer you to what Paul said:

"...no man understands..."
"...my understanding is unfruitful..."

I know that none of you want to hear this, but is is the word of God, and profitable for doctrine.

Coop

So how do you know whether the speaker is really speaking in tongues or faking it, since you don't know what he's saying, and it's gibberish by your own admission? What kind of miracle is it that anyone can FAKE?

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, I didn't say it, Paul did, and behind him, the Holy Spirit that "God-breathed" it to Paul. Once again, I will refer you to what Paul said:

"...no man understands..."
"...my understanding is unfruitful..."

I know that none of you want to hear this, but is is the word of God, and profitable for doctrine.

Coop

So how do you know whether the speaker is really speaking in tongues or faking it, since you don't know what he's saying, and it's gibberish by your own admission? What kind of miracle is it that anyone can FAKE?

Why do you think God said, 'without faith, it is impossible to please Him?" What did Jesus tell Thomas? Thomas had to see to believe, but Jesus said the truly blessed ones are those that believe without seeing. Tongues fit into this catagory. There is no proof that what happens in Pentecostal churches today is the same as in Acts. But neither is there any proof otherwise either! However, God the Father is the same, Jesus is the same, and the Holy Spirit is the same.

If you had spiritual discernment, you would recognize the Holy Spirit when He operates. The Pharisees missed God because they could not recognize Him, neither could they recognize His works. Will you be found in with then in the end? I trust not. Please open your eyes. Where do you see the biggest revival taking place today? Where do you see millions coming to the Lord? Mostly it is in tongue talking groups. Why is this? Because it is the Holy Spirit at work! Today we had four people come down for salvation. It is a rare Sunday that we don't have a few. The Holy Spirit draws them. He also draws them in a Benny Hinn meeting! Yes, it is the same Holy Spirit there, and He saves people in Benny's meetings just as he does on some baptist church. However, usually many more get born again in Benny's meetings! : -)) This makes some ministers jealous. They struggle to get 30 people, and Benny brings in thousands! Why? It is the Holy Spirit. But you will not believe that, for you won't recognize Him.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

There is no proof that what happens in Pentecostal churches today is the same as in Acts

Thank you. You have conceded the whole point. But, lo and behold, you argue on! Fascinating....:roll:

But neither is there any proof otherwise either! However, God the Father is the same, Jesus is the same, and the Holy Spirit is the same

This is a classic logical failure - you don't need to prove a miracle hasn't happened if there is no real evidence that it has happened in the first place. A kid tells you they have an imaginary friend and you, feeling it is time for that child to mature a bit, ask him/her for evidence this friend exists and they tell you to prove he doesn't. This is your argument also. It is childishly weak :

If you had spiritual discernment, you would recognize the Holy Spirit when He operates

I do have spiritual discernment - you're deceived. That's what I have discerned.

The Pharisees missed God because they could not recognize Him, neither could they recognize His works. Will you be found in with then in the end? I trust not. Please open your eyes

But the NT tells us that the Pharisee's could not deny that Christ's miracles were real, so they attributed them to the devil. This is not the case with you and I. I deny that the manifestation we speak of is real (really miraculous that is) and I deny it because it is easily duplicated through very natural means.

Where do you see the biggest revival taking place today? Where do you see millions coming to the Lord? Mostly it is in tongue talking groups. Why is this? Because it is the Holy Spirit at work! Today we had four people come down for salvation. It is a rare Sunday that we don't have a few. The Holy Spirit draws them. He also draws them in a Benny Hinn meeting! Yes, it is the same Holy Spirit there, and He saves people in Benny's meetings just as he does on some baptist church. However, usually many more get born again in Benny's meetings! : -)) This makes some ministers jealous. They struggle to get 30 people, and Benny brings in thousands! Why? It is the Holy Spirit. But you will not believe that, for you won't recognize Him

What you regard as faith is actually naivety. If you are ignorant enough to be taken in by a charlatan like Hinn, you may be beyond hope. And how do you know all those people who come forward in those meetings are sincere? Do you follow up on all of them? All these hundreds of thousands with the Holy Spirit yet your churches have nothing like the power the original church supposedly had. Either something is really wrong with your churches or what happened in the NT never really happened after all. I don't see too many other choices.

 

[lecoop]

There is no proof that what happens in Pentecostal churches today is the same as in Acts

Thank you. You have conceded the whole point. But, lo and behold, you argue on! Fascinating....:roll:

[quote:63c71]But neither is there any proof otherwise either! However, God the Father is the same, Jesus is the same, and the Holy Spirit is the same

This is a classic logical failure - you don't need to prove a miracle hasn't happened if there is no real evidence that it has happened in the first place. A kid tells you they have an imaginary friend and you, feeling it is time for that child to mature a bit, ask him/her for evidence this friend exists and they tell you to prove he doesn't. This is your argument also. It is childishly weak :

There are miracles happening around the world. I have to prove nothing. If you would research, you would find them. However, since you don't believe, you would attempt to disprove them. You don't see them, because they do not happen in your church. If you spent any time in a Pentecostal church, you might see one.

If you had spiritual discernment, you would recognize the Holy Spirit when He operates

I do have spiritual discernment - you're deceived. That's what I have discerned.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

The Pharisees missed God because they could not recognize Him, neither could they recognize His works. Will you be found in with then in the end? I trust not. Please open your eyes

But the NT tells us that the Pharisee's could not deny that Christ's miracles were real, so they attributed them to the devil. This is not the case with you and I. I deny that the manifestation we speak of is real (really miraculous that is) and I deny it because it is easily duplicated through very natural means.

If you were there in Acts, you would deny what happened then also, for you don't believe.

Where do you see the biggest revival taking place today? Where do you see millions coming to the Lord? Mostly it is in tongue talking groups. Why is this? Because it is the Holy Spirit at work! Today we had four people come down for salvation. It is a rare Sunday that we don't have a few. The Holy Spirit draws them. He also draws them in a Benny Hinn meeting! Yes, it is the same Holy Spirit there, and He saves people in Benny's meetings just as he does on some baptist church. However, usually many more get born again in Benny's meetings! : -)) This makes some ministers jealous. They struggle to get 30 people, and Benny brings in thousands! Why? It is the Holy Spirit. But you will not believe that, for you won't recognize Him

What you regard as faith is actually naivety. If you are ignorant enough to be taken in by a charlatan like Hinn, you may be beyond hope. And how do you know all those people who come forward in those meetings are sincere? Do you follow up on all of them? All these hundreds of thousands with the Holy Spirit yet your churches have nothing like the power the original church supposedly had. Either something is really wrong with your churches or what happened in the NT never really happened after all. I don't see too many other choices.[/quote:63c71]

how do you know all those people who come forward in those meetings are sincere?
How do you know they are not sincere?

your churches have nothing like the power the original church supposedly had.
You would not recognize the power if you saw it, or you would deny it. I saw a woman all crippled up in a wheel chair, with arthritus, and saw her totally healed in about one minute, up out of the chair and dancing like a school girl. I have seen the deaf healed, the crippled walk. It is the same power for it is the same HS. Miracles are happening around the world. Where have you been?

How do you know Hinn is a charlatan? Do you know him personally? Have you ever been to one of his services? Have you watched as hundreds respond to an alter call for salvation? Have you followed up and determined that they did not get born again? Can you draw people from many different states and countries to your meetings? Do you actually think they come to see Benny? No, they come to meet God, and receive from Him. They believe that they can do this through Benny's meetings, and they are right.

Now let me ask you a question: Did you have to see God to beleive in Him? hwo do you know He even exists? What proof do you have?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

how do you know all those people who come forward in those meetings are sincere?

How do you know they are not sincere?

Have you personally, on a smaller scale, seen some people respond to altar calls and then "disappered" so to speak? Or fallen away later on? I'll bet you have. If so we can safely assume that out of all those thousands who respond to altar calls at these huge crusades many are just emotional reactions to an evangelist's plea. Your statement made it seem as though all who respond to altar calls become steadfast. Once again, the burden of proof is on your claims, and the "Holy Trinity" of reason, observation, and experience, find you wanting.

(continued later...)

 

[Ryan Collins]

This thread is funny, scriptures have been given to support Tongues and yet people still continue to say Tongues is wrong and not for today, when there is no Scriptural evidence supporting that Tongue is not for today, instead, the complete opposite.

 

[SputnikBoy]

This thread is funny, scriptures have been given to support Tongues and yet people still continue to say Tongues is wrong and not for today, when there is no Scriptural evidence supporting that Tongue is not for today, instead, the complete opposite.

Absolutely untrue, Ryan. There is already a misconception by Pentecostals as to what tongues were, why they were given, and to whom they were given. Based on this misconception they have made all attempts to make the scriptures fit the practice instead of the other way around. The latter, unfortunately for them, is impossible to accomplish. The scriptures do NOT support Pentecostal 'tongues' - in fact, they expose them as being the ungodly sham that they are.

Incidentally, no one is necessarily saying that tongues (the supernatural use of languages) is not for today. God can do whatever He wants to and whenever He wants to and to whomever He wants to. Scriptural tongues, however, would be most unlikely to occur today. The scenereo back then is not the appropriate scenereo for today.

While I don't mean to be unkind, the only reason you say what you say is because of the lack of knowledge as to what scriptural tongues are (or were) all about. One Pentecostal passes on a false message to another Pentecostal but the message is still false. You can't just grab on to a false idea and run with it and hope to make a genuine case for your argument. This is what you - and others - are doing and it simply doesn't hold water. Even the scriptures used to support the sham are so unbelievably flimsy that, if presented as evidence in a court of law, it would be thrown out of court as being inadmissable evidence.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Coop and others. Invariably, all those who are quite comfortable with being 'slain in the Spirit', 'holy laughter', making sounds like farmyard animals, etc. will also lay claim to 'speaking in tongues'. Do we dismiss these people as frauds PERIOD or do we accept the other practices as being genuine by virtue of the fact that they also claim to 'speak in tongues'? I mean, the Holy Spirit would not allow one and not the other, would He?

Do you understand the dilemma of the skeptics?

 

[lecoop]

Coop and others. Invariably, all those who are quite comfortable with being 'slain in the Spirit', 'holy laughter', making sounds like farmyard animals, etc. will also lay claim to 'speaking in tongues'. Do we dismiss these people as frauds PERIOD or do we accept the other practices as being genuine by virtue of the fact that they also claim to 'speak in tongues'? I mean, the Holy Spirit would not allow one and not the other, would He?

Do you understand the dilemma of the skeptics?

I cannot find one scripture of someone barking like a dog, period, much less claiming it to be the Holy Spirit. However, did you ever read this?

Ezekiel 2:2
And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Ezekiel 3:24
Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.

What will you be saying here, when the Spirit starts picking people up after knocking them down? Were People "slain in the Spirit" then? Of course!

Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Ezekiel 3:23
Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So once again, SputnikBoy's arguments fall far short of scripture. It is only his opinions, and the fact that he just has no faith in the clear teachings of Paul concerning tongues. While Paul said "forbid not to speak in tongues," SputnicBoy disagrees. While Mark says that tongues are one of the signs of believers, SputnicBoy disagrees. While Paul asks folks if they have received the Holy Spirit since they believed, SputnicBoy disagrees.

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

What will you be saying here, when the Spirit starts picking people up after knocking them down? Were People "slain in the Spirit" then? Of course!

Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Ezekiel 3:23
Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So once again, SputnikBoy's arguments fall far short of scripture.

I repeat ...'slaying in the Spirit' is a false teaching. I have NEVER seen any so-called 'Spirit-filled' person fall on their face. They ALWAYS fall backwards into the arms of someone waiting behind them. Again ...it is a totally and unequivocably UNscriptural practice. These very same people who participate in this stupid practice also claim to 'speak in tongues'.

It is only his opinions, and the fact that he just has no faith in the clear teachings of Paul concerning tongues. While Paul said "forbid not to speak in tongues," SputnicBoy disagrees.

Paul was NOT referring to Pentecostal 'gibberish' in any way, shape or form when he made that remark.

While Mark says that tongues are one of the signs of believers, SputnicBoy disagrees.

NOTHING to do with Pentecostal 'gibberish'.

While Paul asks folks if they have received the Holy Spirit since they believed, SputnicBoy disagrees.

Please Coop, don't insult my intelligence. This has NOTHING to do with Pentecostal 'gibberish'.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Doesn't ANYTHING throw up a red flag to some of you guys? Whenever some particular practice makes one scratch their heads in puzzlement, why is it that you head straight for the Bible in order to try to give it credibility?

Just think about it. Babbling away in a trance-like state is weird. Laughing uncontrollably as if taking an epileptic seizure is weirder. Making sounds like farmyard animals is weirdest. Where DO some of you guys draw the line?

 

[lecoop]

I repeat ...'slaying in the Spirit' is a false teaching. I have NEVER seen any so-called 'Spirit-filled' person fall on their face. They ALWAYS fall backwards into the arms of someone waiting behind them. Again ...it is a totally and unequivocably UNscriptural practice. These very same people who participate in this stupid practice also claim to 'speak in tongues'.

Let's see: is there a verse that says, "thou shalt not fall when prayed for?"

lecoop wrote:

It is only his opinions, and the fact that he just has no faith in the clear teachings of Paul concerning tongues. While Paul said "forbid not to speak in tongues," SputnicBoy disagrees.

Paul was NOT referring to Pentecostal 'gibberish' in any way, shape or form when he made that remark.

On the contrary, that was exactly what Paul was writing about. He had just spent most of one chapter describing tongues as something that no one could understand, and needed to be interpreted if spoken in front of a group.

lecoop wrote:

While Mark says that tongues are one of the signs of believers, SputnicBoy disagrees.

NOTHING to do with Pentecostal 'gibberish'.

You say that because you do not understand what Paul wrote: "no man understands." Neither do you understand when Paul said, "my understanding is unfruitful." It has everything to do with Pentecostal 'gibberish." It is good biblical exegesis to say that the tongues in Mark 16 are the same tongues that Paul was writing about, for there is no verse that disagrees.


lecoop wrote:

While Paul asks folks if they have received the Holy Spirit since they believed, SputnicBoy disagrees.

Please Coop, don't insult my intelligence. This has NOTHING to do with Pentecostal 'gibberish'.

Again, it has everything to do with it. For when Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues, and "no man understood." "Their understanding was unfruitful." However, Paul knew that they had received, for he heard them speak with tongues. (I know the text doesn't say that - but Paul was in arms length, and could not have helped but hear.

Coop