Justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

[glorydaz]

I've noticed there seems to be some confusion about whether we're justified before God by our faith or the faith of Christ. The translators of many Bibles took the liberty of changing the words "faith of Jesus Christ" to "faith in Jesus Christ" sometime in the early 19th Century. Even though the Greek confirms this, as I will show later, and was used correctly in other instances, such as the "hand of God" and the "faith of Abraham", the references to the faith of Christ was changed in many translations to faith in Christ. Tyndales, the Great Bible, Young's, and the KJV, all kept it in it's correct form, but most of the new translations adopted this practice of changing the "of" to "in". I submit it greatly affects the truth of what the Word says about how we're justified. I'll post on the Greek translations in a bit, but I'd be interested in hearing your views on this very important point of doctrine.

So, let's look first at some verses that aren't affected by a difference in translations.

We see that Jesus is the author and finisher (or perfecter) of our faith.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Some may wonder why Jesus needs faith to begin with, or if He even has faith of His own, since being justified by the faith of Christ would require that He did.

We see that without faith, it is impossible to please God.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The Father was "well pleased" by the Son.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The just shall live by faith...and notice, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.
What does that mean, exactly? From what faith? From whose faith? Keep this in mind because it's critical to how the righteousness of God is revealed. If the righteousness of God is not "revealed" to us, how can we have faith in God?

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Jesus is called the Just One.

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

God justifies by faith...would that be the faith of the Son or our faith?

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Think about this one...I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. Christ lives in us, do we live by His faith, or the faith we have in Him? Here are the two translations side by side and you decide. If we no longer live to ourselves, but Christ lives in us, how do we live by our faith.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

[glorydaz]

In each of these passages, the faith of man (those who "believe") is seen working with the faith of Jesus Christ. They are not used as parallel phrases but as cooperating concepts. Either Paul is being incredibly redundant, in the NIV, or he was making a distinction between our faith and the faith of Christ.

Man is justified by the faith of Jesus...even when we believe...that we might be justified by the faith of Christ.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Man is justified by faith in Christ...so we have put our faith in Christ...that we may be justified by our faith in Christ.

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

The righteousness of God comes by the "faith of Christ."

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Or...the righteousness of God comes by our "faith in Christ."

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

 

[francisdesales]

I've noticed there seems to be some confusion about whether we're justified before God by our faith or the faith of Christ.

Was Abraham justified by the faith of Jesus Christ or by Abraham's faith in God? How about all of the righteous people of the Old Testament? How about the pagans mentioned in Romans 2, men considered just enough to be considered spiritual Jews and had gained eternal life?

The translators of many Bibles took the liberty of changing the words "faith of Jesus Christ" to "faith in Jesus Christ" sometime in the early 19th Century.

This has no meaning when one goes to the Greek. The modern translators got it right.

Your "argument from the authority of GD knows the original manuscripts" is fallacious.

We see that Jesus is the author and finisher (or perfecter) of our faith.

Some may wonder why Jesus needs faith to begin with, or if He even has faith of His own, since being justified by the faith of Christ would require that He did.

We are not made instantly just, EVERY MAN in the world because of Jesus' "faith"!!! Pagans are just in God's eyes?

You are saying, basically, that EVERYONE is justified in God's eyes because of Jesus personal faith (in something unseen?) This strikes of universal salvation. It is quite clear that everyone is not just in God's eyes. Thus, you are wrong.

The work of Jesus is as a sin offering. A propitiation.

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:25

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Two things. The offering is for the sake of all sins of the entire world, AND for remissions of past sins BECAUSE of God's forebearance...

The work of Christ on the cross is misunderstood by you. The work of Christ did not "replace" our sins and everyone's of the world. The price of sin is DEATH, ETERNAL death. Obviously, Jesus is not still in hell paying the price of mankind's sins. Rather, Jesus is a sin offering. A propitiation is an offering made to God to "sooth" His wrath of those REPENTING! Haven't you read the OT???

One of many examples:

Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; Joel 2:12-14a

Joel seems to think that man can repent. This repentance "sooths" the wrath that God is about to enact. This theme is quite prevalent throughout the OT...!!!

THIS is why Jesus CONTINUES to intercede (Hebrews, Romans, 1 John). Christ intercedes to the Father, "reminding" Him of the Passion, BEING OUR PRIEST! Remember what priests do in the OT? Calling God to "remember" the covenant by their sacrifices and prayers?

Those who respond to God's grace, then, can operate under Grace. God's mercy can overlook our small missteps because of the work of Christ and His intercessions, intercessions based upon His INFINITELY meritorious offering.

God's mercy DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL MEN AVOID THE WRATH OF GOD!!! Read the book of Revelation, for example. Or Romans 2. Jesus' work was done by then. If His work does as you say, there is no need for sinners to worry about the wrath of God, since Christ's work is universal, just as Adam's work was universal (Romans 5). It should be painfully clear that SOMETHING must be done in addition to the universal work of Christ, since it is NOT universally applied.

What is it? What is it that JESUS said we must do? We must have FAITH! Faith in God/Him. Without this faith, a gift from above, this trust that God will do what He says, there is no justification of the human. Was Abraham considered just because he merely existed, all things dependent upon the future works of Jesus? NO!!! Abraham believed the promise, knowing in his heart that God would provide another son of the promise, either raising Isaac or providing another miracle son. Without this human action working via the gift given from above, faith, there is no justification in God's eyes.

We see that without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Because of His obedience, the Father was well pleased, not His faith in the unknown! Not in his trusting that something unseen would happen. That definition cannot apply to God.

It refers to men, not God Himself. Hebrews 11 is about the saints of the OT who searched for God, trusting that God would provide, even though it seemed that He might not. THIS is an act of man moved by God's gift of faith! Naturally, this definition cannot apply to God Himself, Who KNOWS the end result. Isn't it clear from the Gospels that Jesus KNEW He would be crucified and would rise? That knowledge, in of itself, does not fit into the category of "faith" as defined above..

Paul says at the end of 1 Cor 13 that faith will pass away. WHY, GD? Because we will KNOW God, see Him as He is. So theologically speaking, what FAITH are you talking about that Jesus had, this trust in the unseen?

The Kerygma of the early Apostles was to have faith IN Jesus and His works - that Jesus was God's work in the world, the means by which we would be saved. Without this faith in Christ, there was no justification.

If it's all about Jesus' personal faith, then man has no input and the entire point of evangelization and sanctification is pointless.

To GD, EVERYONE is already justified!!!

Since this is not true, GD's logic fails.

 

[samuel]

Eph. 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I have to beg to differ. If we have not faith, and it is a gift from God, then just whose faith is it. Its pretty obvious, that it is the faith of the one who indwells us - Jesus Christ.

So critical scholarship be D, the correct rendering is faith OF christ, not in Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

Does it matter whether it's Christ faith or our faith? I believe it does...especially when someone doubts their salvation because they don't think they have enough faith. We know God gives all men a measure of faith. Is that "measure" enough to justify us before God? Does that make it a merit system of salvation?

If our faith is lacking, does that mean we aren't justified?

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

It's the "work of God" that we believe on Jesus. If it's His work, then how does our faith in Him justify us?

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Not having our own righteousness, but that which is through the faith of Christ or our faith in Christ. So not only justification, but righteousness comes by either Christ's faith or our faith in Christ. Is our faith enough to gain us justification and righteousness?

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Drew]

The just shall live by faith...and notice, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.
What does that mean, exactly?

First, I agree that there is a big translation issue here. More specifically, the Greek phrase "love of God" (for example) is actually ambiguous as to how it should be translated. It could be translated so as to denote our love of God, or it could be translated to denote God's love for us.

Consider Romans 1:17:

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "(AI)BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

I suggest that the "righteousness of God" here denotes God's own righteousness, not a righteousness that is imputed to man. And more specifically, I suggest that it denotes God's fidelity to the Abrahamic covenant. I think the "faith to faith" denotes how God's faithfulness to his covenant is met with man's response of grateful faith - hence the phrase "from faith to faith".

 

[glorydaz]

The just shall live by faith...and notice, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.
What does that mean, exactly?

First, I agree that there is a big translation issue here. More specifically, the Greek phrase "love of God" (for example) is actually ambiguous as to how it should be translated. It could be translated so as to denote our love of God, or it could be translated to denote God's love for us.

Consider Romans 1:17:

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "(AI)BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

I suggest that the "righteousness of God" here denotes God's own righteousness, not a righteousness that is imputed to man. And more specifically, I suggest that it denotes God's fidelity to the Abrahamic covenant. I think the "faith to faith" denotes how God's faithfulness to his covenant is met with man's response of grateful faith - hence the phrase "from faith to faith".

I agree some verses speak to the idea of faithfulness to the Covenant, but I don't think this is one of them, although it could be speaking of that, as well, in some way I'm not seeing at the moment. This seems to be speaking especially to the issue of God's righteousness being revealed to us by the Gospel of Christ.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The "righteousness of God" here is most certainly speaking of God's own righteousness, but it's "revealed" through the faith of the Just One, Jesus Christ. It then flows from the faith of Christ to our faith in Christ. That's the faith to faith being spoken of in this verse. Jesus reveals the righteousness of God to us.

Which is the same here...The righteousness of God flows through Jesus unto and upon all who believe.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Jesus endured the cross ... obedient to His mission of redemption. We place our faith in Jesus who lived by faith and gave Himself for us. Our faith actually starts there...that's when He initiates faith in us, and we believe.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As we're "found in Him", we have that righteousness through the faith of Christ.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[glorydaz]

I've noticed there seems to be some confusion about whether we're justified before God by our faith or the faith of Christ.

Was Abraham justified by the faith of Jesus Christ or by Abraham's faith in God? How about all of the righteous people of the Old Testament? How about the pagans mentioned in Romans 2, men considered just enough to be considered spiritual Jews and had gained eternal life?

I'll have to take your points on one at a time, Joe.
I'm a simple person, and you never fail to overwhelm me. ;)

Yes, Abraham was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith...for all the OT saints. Of course pagans and people who only "considered" themselves spiritual aren't justified, because God is more than able to see into a person's heart. He'll say, "I never knew you." Name it and claim it has never worked and it never will.

 

[JamesG]

.
Glorydaz

I saw two commentaries on Galatians, one by Thomas Aquinas and one by William of St.Thierry, a friend of Bernard of Clairvaux. Both were writers who lived in the twelfth century. Both agreed with the “faith of Christ†translation. But by the sixteenth century, both Martin Luther and John Calvin wrote commentaries on Galatians, and they both agreed with the “faith in Christ†translation. And they no doubt learned that way of translation of the Genitive phrase from the Western Church from which they came. Contemporary Christianity, including the Eastern Orthodox, agrees that it should be “faith in Christâ€.

And I noticed that in all the places that I was reading in the Bible, the grammar for the Genitive phrase was clear. If a person is involved, it means possession. This is pretty much a rule that is only broken if the word “faith†is involved. When the rule is broken, the Genitive phrase turns into a mimic of a Dative phrase. The Greek word that means “in†can only be used in a Dative phrase.

I don’t blame the modern English translators for translating the Genitive phrase as “faith in†rather than “faith ofâ€. They not only have at least four hundred years of history and Tradition to back them up, but they also have the KJV to back them up. Young’s literal translation consistently translates the Genitive phrase as “faith ofâ€. But there is one other such source of consistency that is surprising. That is the Douay Version used by the Catholics until modern times. For the Protestants, it was the KJV that was the influential Bible until modern times.

To me this is significant because most modern Bible translators are Protestant. But what is even more significant is that the KJV did NOT translate the Genitive consistently. In Mark 11:22, the Genitive phrase should be “faith of Godâ€. The KJV translates that as “faith in Godâ€. Apparently, the translators did not believe that God could have faith, let alone a perfect faith that believes perfectly because he is God. In Romans 3:26, the Genitive phrase should be “out of the faith of Jesusâ€. The KJV translates that very non-literally as “of him which believeth in Jesusâ€. The influential KJV Bible gives the modern Protestant translators the ground to translate the Genitive phrase objectively or “faith inâ€. In the Douay Version, both of these places are translated as “faith ofâ€. Yet today, the Catholics have an English translation (the New American Bible) that conforms with the modern Protestant translations against their own previous better judgment. The NAB translates the Genitive phrases that include faith as “faith inâ€. Of course, in defense of the Catholics, they do tend to be a very progressive lot in spite of a heavy reliance on Tradition, so that their change is not so surprising.

Contemporary grammarians say the Genitive phrase can be translated subjectively (of) or objectively (in). When I originally posted my thread on this matter, I suspected that probably both are true. It is commonly believed that we believe in Christ and that our faith is a faith given to us by God. But the more I thought about this, the less sense it made. It would either mean that we don’t have any free will other than perhaps initially turning to the Lord, or it would mean that our faith is not so much in Jesus Christ the person, but rather more in what he did, his propitiation and redemption. Jesus did say that if we couldn’t believe in who he is in any other way, then believe the works. But it was always obvious that he preferred that we believe in the person who is the source of the works more because the works merely express the person who does the works. Without the faith of the person, no works would be done.

As I continued to also meditate upon my own personal sinful nature, and how it seems to erupt to the surface at every opportunity, I began to see that our own human faith that is so often influenced by our own sinful nature could not be sufficient to make us righteous, even with the grace of God or even if it is, in what ever degree, in the person of Christ or his redemptive blood. I look back at the apostles who couldn’t hardly have faith for a minute without sliding into no or little faith. And I look back especially at Paul, the one who wrote about being made righteous in relation to Christ, and note how he didn’t trust himself or his faith to help him. Rather, he relied on the person of Christ to live in him (Galatians 2:20, Philippians 3:1-15).

Most Christians believe that they need something that is more than themselves in order to be saved or Justified. I have come to believe that if anyone is to be saved or Justified, it has to be by a faith that is more than our own. It has to be by the faith of Christ.

JamesG

 

[glorydaz]

As I continued to also meditate upon my own personal sinful nature, and how it seems to erupt to the surface at every opportunity, I began to see that our own human faith that is so often influenced by our own sinful nature could not be sufficient to make us righteous, even with the grace of God or even if it is, in what ever degree, in the person of Christ or his redemptive blood. I look back at the apostles who couldn’t hardly have faith for a minute without sliding into no or little faith. And I look back especially at Paul, the one who wrote about being made righteous in relation to Christ, and note how he didn’t trust himself or his faith to help him. Rather, he relied on the person of Christ to live in him (Galatians 2:20, Philippians 3:1-15).

Most Christians believe that they need something that is more than themselves in order to be saved or Justified. I have come to believe that if anyone is to be saved or Justified, it has to be by a faith that is more than our own. It has to be by the faith of Christ.

JamesG

Thanks for that research, and I couldn't agree more. I see that not realizing this can affect one's own faith. They can begin to doubt their own salvation, and attempt to bolster their standing with God by performing works instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to produce His fruit. Most people realize their personal faith is subject to outside influences, and if we're "justified" by our faith, who would be saved? It's more than that, though, as I see it. Our salvation is a work of Christ. It's His work for us that justifies us before God. Our part is quite small, we merely "look upon" the Lord. We "touch the rock" of living water and trust in His work by believing. Did our reaching out or looking justify us...was it our faith? It couldn't be...for our faith is not a perfect faith. So whenever the Word is using faith as pertaining to salvation,justification or sanctification it must be referring to the faith of the Priest who offered up the sacrifice to God. His faith in His own redemptive work. His obedient faith...even unto death is the only propitiation that could be acceptable to the Father. We tap into the source of life that flows freely into us and become partakers of the faith of Christ.

 

[paulr1025]

What a fantastic thread!
As you know by now glorydaz, it is obvious by the shear contextual definition of "faith" that it has to be the faith OF Jesus, because "faith" itself is AGREEMENT WITH GOD, as evidenced by abiding by it.
The flesh, or carnal man if you will, is incapable of AGREEING WITH GOD, but Christ IN us will DO nothing but AGREE WITH GOD.
So, by virtual definition, and by the fact that the ability to DIE TO SELF and allow Christ to live through us, (measure of faith) was given by God to every man.
Faith comes (grows) by hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.
So, it is faith that increases IN us, when Christ increases IN us, as the faith (mustard seed) meaning sting or hurt by Greek definition of sinape is activated in our DENYING SELF.
Believe me, man will "feel" when he is denying self, cause it hurts!
Just like fasting or exercise hurts, so does FAITH, as it is NOT OF OURSELVES, BUT THE GIFT OF GOD TO ALL WHO BELIEVE!
Of course, the word believe also deserves defining, as it is NOT an ethereal attribute of faith or grasping for the wind, but by transliteration from Hebrew and Aramaic both, is the equal of TRUST.
Many of us know by now, the word "TRUST" "baktah" or in some cases "katsah" both have basically the same tone. RUN QUICKLY FOR SAFETY.
So, by definition alone, this is an active part of FAITH, and not an ethereal passivity as so many preach today!
In short, it is the Faith of Christ that was IN Abraham, because of the "name change" that came from God. No longer will you be called Abram, and at that point, God put His seed into Abraham (Child of promise) as Abraham and Sari/Sarah were both past the age of having kids!
We see the same thing happen with John the Baptist, while Elizabeth was barren, and that is why his (John's) name was not Zacharias as his father, because the seed again came from God, and is seen in the name (John-YHVH is a gracious giver)
Also, faith without works is dead, just as the body without the Spirit is dead.
That is because the evidence of our faith, is the hope of seeing Jesus face to face in glory, and it is realized through the writings of Peter, that NO ONE WITHOUT A PURE HEART WILL SEE THE LORD.
It is LIVING out the Word of God that purifies our hearts, but NOT us doing, US DYING, Him doing through us.
A pure heart is a humble heart, that understands, God's right 100% (His Word according to John 1) and man is wrong. Those who put their faith (what they agree with) in man, will have their part in the lake of fire that burns forever and ever!

Agape,

paul

Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[glorydaz]

In short, it is the Faith of Christ that was IN Abraham, because of the "name change" that came from God. No longer will you be called Abram, and at that point, God put His seed into Abraham (Child of promise) as Abraham and Sari/Sarah were both past the age of having kids!
We see the same thing happen with John the Baptist, while Elizabeth was barren, and that is why his (John's) name was not Zacharias as his father, because the seed again came from God, and is seen in the name (John-YHVH is a gracious giver)

I appreciated your entire post, brother, but I'm especially happy that you reminded me of the change in name. I hadn't thought of it in regards to faith. Saul/Paul is another good example. Thanks for sharing your insight.

I'm afraid, too often, I see man ever seeking for some of the glory for his own salvation, justification and keeping, and it's Christ that deserves all the glory...for it is His work on the cross.

 

[francisdesales]

I'll have to take your points on one at a time, Joe.
I'm a simple person, and you never fail to overwhelm me. ;)

Yes, Abraham was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

"Galatians 3:8"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Nothing about Abraham justified by the faith OF Jesus. Christ's work ENABLED Abraham's faith to be of justifying value.

Clearly, Paul says that ABRAHAM'S faith justified Abraham.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:6

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:23

Would you like some more? Where does it say that Jesus personal faith justified Abraham? NOTE, it says ABRAHAM believed - and THAT act was considered righteous. Geez, this is quite amazing to me, such a simple thing twisted so badly, all to uphold the sacred cow of sola fide...

Jesus work ALLOWED man to lift up their minds to God - and now, with God's help, we can be just in His eyes. You are again confused with the Protestant mindset that man is and always will be filthy rags...

Salvation has always been by grace through faith...for all the OT saints. Of course pagans and people who only "considered" themselves spiritual aren't justified, because God is more than able to see into a person's heart. He'll say, "I never knew you." Name it and claim it has never worked and it never will.

salvation has always been by grace through faith. True. I defended you vs Mystery man on that comment. I am not speaking of those who "consider" themselves as righteous but are not via their faith working through love. God is pleased with men seeking Him out in faith. There is no need to pretend that man, even with the Spirit of God, CANNOT seek out God and have faith in Him and love his fellow neighbor. There have always been men like this, as a result of God's Spirit vivifying men - all made possible by Christ's WORK on the cross. At the end of the day, JESUS'S "faith" will not be judged if a man does not attain eternal life. The gift is made available, and those who utilize it will be rewarded with heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

I'll have to take your points on one at a time, Joe.
I'm a simple person, and you never fail to overwhelm me. ;)

Yes, Abraham was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

"Galatians 3:8"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Nothing about Abraham justified by the faith OF Jesus. Christ's work ENABLED Abraham's faith to be of justifying value.

Clearly, Paul says that ABRAHAM'S faith justified Abraham.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:6

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:23

Would you like some more? Where does it say that Jesus personal faith justified Abraham? NOTE, it says ABRAHAM believed - and THAT act was considered righteous. Geez, this is quite amazing to me, such a simple thing twisted so badly, all to uphold the sacred cow of sola fide...

Jesus work ALLOWED man to lift up their minds to God - and now, with God's help, we can be just in His eyes. You are again confused with the Protestant mindset that man is and always will be filthy rags...

Salvation has always been by grace through faith...for all the OT saints. Of course pagans and people who only "considered" themselves spiritual aren't justified, because God is more than able to see into a person's heart. He'll say, "I never knew you." Name it and claim it has never worked and it never will.

salvation has always been by grace through faith. True. I defended you vs Mystery man on that comment. I am not speaking of those who "consider" themselves as righteous but are not via their faith working through love. God is pleased with men seeking Him out in faith. There is no need to pretend that man, even with the Spirit of God, CANNOT seek out God and have faith in Him and love his fellow neighbor. There have always been men like this, as a result of God's Spirit vivifying men - all made possible by Christ's WORK on the cross. At the end of the day, JESUS'S "faith" will not be judged if a man does not attain eternal life. The gift is made available, and those who utilize it will be rewarded with heaven.

Man has faith, I'm not denying that, but it's the faith of Jesus Christ that has flowed into man when he "touches the rock" of salvation. Abraham was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. He believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He simply tapped into the faith of God..the faith of Christ, and that is the faith that justifies us before God. Our thirst doesn't justify us...nor does our hunger, but they do cause us to eat and drink of the bread of life and the water of salvation.

And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.

Abraham believed God...the gospel had been preached, which is the POWER of salvation. That power of the gospel which is the message of the faith of Christ. The Just One lived by faith and died by faith and rose again by faith. How can you say it wasn't Christ's faith that justifies us before God?

After we are justified by the faith of Christ, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and recieve the fruit...which is FAITH, for one. We grow in faith after we are saved...it isn't our faith that justifies us before God. That initial touch of grace and faith is God's faith in Christ and Christ's faith in His mission of redemption.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus work ALLOWED man to lift up their minds to God - and now, with God's help, we can be just in His eyes. You are again confused with the Protestant mindset that man is and always will be filthy rags...

God is pleased with men seeking Him out in faith. There is no need to pretend that man, even with the Spirit of God, CANNOT seek out God and have faith in Him and love his fellow neighbor. There have always been men like this, as a result of God's Spirit vivifying men - all made possible by Christ's WORK on the cross. At the end of the day, JESUS'S "faith" will not be judged if a man does not attain eternal life. The gift is made available, and those who utilize it will be rewarded with heaven.

No, it's not with God's help that we can be just in His eyes. It is by Christ living in us that we are counted righteous in God's eyes. God looks at Christ and sees righteousness. We can never become righteous enough for a righteous God. It's only as we deny self and allow Christ to live in us ....through His imputed righteousness we are enabled to enter through the veil and gain access to God. We have His robe of righteousness as our covering. I know how much you hate that, but it's the truth, nonetheless.

You say, "even with the Spirit of God"....it is that very Spirit that produces the fruit in our lives. It's the love of God that is shed abroad in our heart that loves our neighbor...not us, for our love is ever falling short of God's glory. Without the faith of Jesus Christ, man would have nothing to tap into.

And, actually, it is Jesus' faith that gains us eternal life. Those who have been justified by His faith do not come under condemnation. He was obedient unto death, the righteous lamb of God, and we are written in His book of life.

 

[paulr1025]

It is amazing to me how many see Jesus of Nazareth and Christ (the Anointing) as one and the same, as though they're synonymous.

Looking at Acts 10:38 we see the Word of God make the delineation between the two.
Acts 10:38 How "God" "anointed" (Christed) Jesus of Nazareth, with the Holy Spirit and with "power" (dunamis), Who went about "doing good" and "healing" all those oppressed by the devil, for "God" was with "Him" (Emmanuel)

Now then, Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Even the pharisees had the "light", as Jesus said to them;
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This is the smoldering flax spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, that He will NOT extinguish, because it's Him.
This is the "measure of faith" given to each person!
This is the "light" given to every person coming into the world.

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Let's also NOT forget that there is more than one definition for "Christ" in Greek, the most important of course being Messiah, that is Jesus the Messiah, but if we're NOT anointed, that is "Christed", we are NONE of His.

RE: Abraham
Abraham "believed" God and it was counted to him as righteousness!
If i say i "believe" the house is on fire, but i don't get out before it burns to the ground, is that considered belief?
Not by God's standards, as demons "believe" and tremble.
Abraham's belief was found in his obedience, knowing as a "friend of God" that God could raise Isaac from the dead, and it wasn't until Abraham raised the blade that God said; "Now I know that you fear God", because you have NOT kept your son, "your only son" from Me.
Abraham's only son was Isaac, by God's seed, as Abraham and Sarah were both way beyond the age of having children. Abram was ishmael's father, but it was God who changed Abram's identity, just as it was God who changed Jacob's name upon his confession, just as He will change anyone's who "calls" (meaning to entitle Lordship) on the Name of YHVH!
After wrestling with the angel, the angel said to Jacob; "what's your name", in other words, "what is your identity" and Jacob replied, i'm a deceiver, a trickster, and a supplanter.
Just as when we come to Him admitting our identity and say;
i'm a drug addict, a sexually immoral person, a liar, a thief. Whatever it is, He says;
No longer will you be called that, but now you will be called "Prince of God" or "will rule as God"

So, when we read, we are saved by grace through faith, it should be obvious by another one of Paul's popular passages, (we walk by faith, not by sight), that faith is DOING THE WORD OF GOD!
Now, let me also clarify, it is NOT our doing, but Christ's IN us, as our only DOING of the Word of God is to "put to death our members, presenting our "flesh bodies" as a living sacrifice...
In other words, we are to simply be "skin suits" for Christ to as it is written in Acts 10:38 go around "doing good" and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God is with "us" (Emmanuel)
We do this again, by His anointing of the Holy Spirit and His Power (dunamis) and there is NO other way.
That is why we read, 2 Tim 1:7 God has NOT given "us" a spirit of "fear" or timidity, or pride, or jealousy, or wrath, or drunkenness, as all of these are the spirit of anti=christ. What He has given us, is a Spirit of DUNAMIS (Greek word we derived DYNAMITE from, Agape, the deliberate ascent of the will to be doers of the Word and NOT hearers only, deceiving ourselves, and again, SELF CONTROL, to keep the Spirit (Christ) in charge of our daily lives.

It is the same thing in Gal 5:22 The fruit of the Spirit is Agape (obedience to God 1 Joh 5, and humility among each other, with the willingness to, exhort, encourage, rebuke, and reprove one another as is fitting in YHVH. (Also, we have the ability to NOT gossip, as those who do, are NOT considered trustworthy in God's eyes. Prov 11:13)
Joy, the Joy of YHVH is our strength, and it is unexplainable the Joy that comes from simply being a DOER of the Word. So, we can safely read Phil 4:13 as "i can DO all things, through Christ IN me, who gives me the Joy of YHVH"
In Heb 12:2 we see it was this Joy that gave Jesus the strength to endure the cross, as this too was in obedience to YHVH, because of what Jesus said in the garden. Not My will, but Thy will be done.
Peace, as Jesus is now "seated" "at rest from His labor" at peace "with God", but the Spirit is still working IN those who DIE TO SELF!
So, if we've indeed died, then it will be evidenced by Christ living out Agape through us, just as Christ lived out Agape through Jesus of Nazareth during His earthly ministry!
When we've died, and He is living IN and through us, it is evident, because His commandments are NOT a burden, and it is His patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and faithfulness, but again, just as in 2 Tim 1:7 we see our responsibility in SELF CONTROL.
Putting to death our members, Putting off the old man, Beating the flesh and taking it into subjection.
As Paul said; I DIE DAILY!

So friends, Paul says; Examine yourselves to see if you are truly in the faith OF Jesus!
THAT IS TO SAY, YOU ARE DOERS OF THE WORD, BY HIS SPIRIT AND YOUR FLESH BODY, REGARDLESS HOW ANYONE "FEELS" ABOUT IT.

There's much more to say, but many won't read long posts, so i will elaborate further if you'd like.

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[Vic C.]

It is amazing to me how many see Jesus of Nazareth and Christ (the Anointing) as one and the same, as though they're synonymous....

I believe they are and so did Elisabeth and also John the Baptist, months before he was born!

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

So, I and other are in good company. But...

I am glad to read you do believe it is His faith, not ours.

 

[paulr1025]

Well, Vic, did you read the whole post, or just that portion?

If you read the whole thing, you'll see where the bible makes the delineation, not me.

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[glorydaz]

It is amazing to me how many see Jesus of Nazareth and Christ (the Anointing) as one and the same, as though they're synonymous.

Are you saying that many people seem to keep Jesus in His humanity in their thinking? I would agree with that. If that isn't what you have in mind, perhaps you could elaborate.

 

[francisdesales]

Man has faith, I'm not denying that, but it's the faith of Jesus Christ that has flowed into man when he "touches the rock" of salvation.

Faith is a GIFT, it is not something generated by man. Thus, when we say Abraham's faith justified him, we don't read that to mean that Abraham, entirely without God, came to believe in God. The gift is NOT, however, the "faith of Christ"...

As I said, strictly speaking, the Son of God's "faith" cannot be compared to the biblical definition of what I have already given you from the Book of Hebrews. It is this trust in God, despite NOT KNOWING THE FUTURE that sets our faith from whatever you think Jesus had.

Furthermore, Paul says that faith and hope end, but love lasts forever. What makes faith and hope end? Knowledge of God that we do not have? Seeing Him face to face? Well, if this is what ends faith, then how can the Son of God have such faith if He SEES the Father???!!!

Abraham was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Not according to the Bible.

He believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham believed - and that belief was seen as righteous in God's eyes.

He simply tapped into the faith of God..

Faith in What???? Please explain this concept. You have yet to do so, and I fear you have not because you know it doesn't make sense...

What is it that God had faith in that remained hidden, but yet, He trusted in it that it would be so?

It is upon this that your argument stands or falls. If you cannot support your argument, then drop it. You should know by now that I am not going to be convinced by your mere repeating it over and over again.