Growth Justified - Sanctified

[K2CHRIST]

I am going to cover this just very briefly, There is a theology of Justification and Sanctification. That is we are justified by faith and have salvation through that justification. It is the Jn 3:16 verse that of course goes "Who-so-ever believeth in Him (Jesus Christ). We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. But there may be more than just getting saved.

Around the turn of the 19th to 20th Century a man named Charles Fox Paraham was working on a line of thinking that was based upon Sanctification. He was looking back at the upper room idea in Acts where the Spirit came as tongues of fire. He got and old hotel, put in an upper room called a prayer tower and got together a group to continually devote themselves to God and prayer in that upper room. And the gift of tongues showed up. It was generally the beginning of what we call Pentecostalism.

So was Paraham and his followers in that prayer tower not believers before the Spirit came down with tongues for them. That was not his opinion. He was working on the Justification and Sanctification theology. That is he believed he was saved, but that there was something more to be had and desired.

 

[reba]

 

[Jim Parker]

That is he believed he was saved, but that there was something more to be had and desired.

Something more" was the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Something more" was the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it was the baptism in the Holy Spirit?? But could it have been the baptism of fire?

Matthew 3:11 As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with the water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now

Act 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you...

So Jesus was baptizing with the Holy Spirit and fire. And we see the when the Holy Spirit has come upon us we receive power also. So perhaps the tongues and the other gifts are a result of the power or perhaps the baptism of fire?

And if the power is a gift, then perhaps I need to desire it to receive or activate it.

For example; Some one could come to my door with a gift for me, but do I have to accept it? Even though the gift has been sent and perhaps left at the door, there is still a question of wanting the gift and opening it up. So I see where a person could be baptized with the Spirit and or the fire not accept the power. There is something written about quenching the Spirit of God.

Charles F Parham wanted what we tend to call the Sanctification. He wanted something more and got it. Was that something more the Spirit, the fire, the power, or was it just a desire to open the gifts?

However you want to view it; it does seem clear that Christians have not desired, by perhaps hanging out and praying in an upper room, like those recorded in Acts, or like those recorded in other historical records, like Charles F Parham. The point is: That there is something more for many Christians. Maybe we call it Sanctification. Maybe you want to call it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or perhaps the Baptism of fire, or perhaps the gift of tongues (which maybe more of an evidence). Still there is something more to be desired and we should want it all, since it is from God!

1 Cor 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts....

 

[JLB]

I am going to cover this just very briefly, There is a theology of Justification and Sanctification. That is we are justified by faith and have salvation through that justification. It is the Jn 3:16 verse that of course goes "Who-so-ever believeth in Him (Jesus Christ). We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. But there may be more than just getting saved.

Around the turn of the 19th to 20th Century a man named Charles Fox Paraham was working on a line of thinking that was based upon Sanctification. He was looking back at the upper room idea in Acts where the Spirit came as tongues of fire. He got and old hotel, put in an upper room called a prayer tower and got together a group to continually devote themselves to God and prayer in that upper room. And the gift of tongues showed up. It was generally the beginning of what we call Pentecostalism.

So was Paraham and his followers in that prayer tower not believers before the Spirit came down with tongues for them. That was not his opinion. He was working on the Justification and Sanctification theology. That is he believed he was saved, but that there was something more to be had and desired.

Yes there is more.

Baptism in water and Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Not having the Holy Spirit doesn't mean a person is not saved, but that the person has not been empowered yet to walk in dominion and victory over the sinful desires of the flesh.


In this life we have a choice to either:

• Walk according to the desires of the Spirit within.
• Walk according to the desires of the flesh.

The Enemy knows this and fights hard against the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[K2CHRIST]

Yes there is more.

Baptism in water and Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Not having the Holy Spirit doesn't mean a person is not saved, but that the person has not been empowered yet to walk in dominion and victory over the sinful desires of the flesh.


In this life we have a choice to either:

• Walk according to the desires of the Spirit within.
• Walk according to the desires of the flesh.

The Enemy knows this and fights hard against the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[reba]

So who wants to take the stand deciding who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't ... Stand and make your claim before God... Tell God ...

Remember to use the whole counsel of Scripture.
We have Christian here who dont believe the OT guys had the Holy Spirit yet . the Scriptures say this

Psa_51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

I also believe this Spirit was Holy Gen_1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

NT

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Kidron]

-
Anyone who is born again has the Holy Spirit, as its the Holy Spirit that generates this "new birth".
So, one has the other, or not at all.
Therefore, anyone who believes that water baptism saved them, does not have the Holy Spirit, and is not born again.
They only have a water baptism experience, and that is not a new birth experience.
Jesus said...."you MUST be born again".......and he never said....."You must be water baptized to be saved".
However, a lot of cultists say it all over Christian forums.
Interestingly enough, every time the NT speaks about water baptism, it always FOLLOWS someone's faith that God FIRST ACCEPTED to save them.
So, in every case in the NT, where you have salvation , you then see this followed by water immersion.
This is why the scripture says......'he that believes and is baptized, shall be saved...but he that BELIEVETH NOT, shall be damned".
As this is the scripture teaching you that you can be water baptized, but still be damned, if you are water baptized but you have not BELIEVED......... And Many are like this.
A Christian understands that to become one, God required their Faith.
Not water.
Never water.
Salvation , the way it works, is very simple to understand.
You take Christ, God takes you.
Done.
This is why you can be water baptized 40 times and still go to hell, but if you have believed ONCE, you cant.
Water Baptism is what YOU do, but Salvation is what GOD DOES for you.
These are not the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

Kidron made some great points.

I just don't understand the OP.
Sanctification has nothing to do with baptism.
It has to do with our daily walk After justification.

 

[JLB]

So who wants to take the stand deciding who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't ... Stand and make your claim before God... Tell God ...

I won't take a stand as to who doesn't have the Holy Spirit, but I will share some scriptures that points us to who does have the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who is born again has the Holy Spirit, as its the Holy Spirit that generates this "new birth".

• They may have been born again, but they may not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

When a person has received the Holy Spirit baptism, it is accompanied with evidence that can be seen or heard.



And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

1. “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
2. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
3. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

again


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

1. when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
2. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
   
3. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
   
4. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
   
5. when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48

1. the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
2. were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles
   
3. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

When someone receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is accompanied with evidence that can be seen or heard.

• Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

JLB

 

[Kidron]

• They may have been born again, but they may not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

JLB

-
JLB......This is meaningless, as you are applying it.. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has nothing to do with being born again.

Listen, the "baptism' you are obsessing on is typical of tongue talkers who are endlessly trying to carry on about "a 2nd work of grace" or "baptism with fire", or all of this type misinformed commentary.
But its meaningless with regards to theological accuracy..
See, here is how it works.....

"many are called but few are chosen"......"five fold ministry"....."are all Apostles???"...

See those verses?.....those verses are defining the distinction between those who are called (baptized into) the ministry, vs, those who are saved but are not called into the "5-fold" ministry.
So, when someone like you, who does not right divided the word correctly, tries to force the "baptism of the spirit" as a requirement on all to prove someone is saved, or not........when in fact the very verses you are twisting do not apply to most Christians, as most Christians are not "baptized with the Spirit" = to be put into the 5 fold ministry.
But you are clueless about this, and the person that taught you this mess is the reason you are confused.
You are simply, like so many,.....one confused sheep,....who is just an unfortunate bi-product of faulty and erroneous theology.
So, the question isn't,,,,,, can you continue to be theologically inaccurate and keep posting harm to other Believers on Forums... (as obviously you are here every single day of your life doing this).......but the question is.......will you stop?....Are you able to realize your error and break away from your harmful doctrine that not only harms you, but harms every single person you address.
Thats the question.

 

[JLB]

-
JLB......This is meaningless, as you are applying it.. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has nothing to do with being born again.

Listen, the "baptism' you are obsessing on is typical of tongue talkers who are endlessly trying to carry on about "a 2nd work of grace" or "baptism with fire", or all of this type misinformed commentary.
But its meaningless with regards to theological accuracy..
See, here is how it works.....

"many are called but few are chosen"......"five fold ministry"....."are all Apostles???"...

See those verses?.....those verses are defining the distinction between those who are called (baptized into) the ministry, vs, those who are saved but are not called into the "5-fold" ministry.
So, when someone like you, who does not right divided the word correctly, tries to force the "baptism of the spirit" as a requirement on all to prove someone is saved, or not........when in fact the very verses you are twisting do not apply to most Christians, as most Christians are not "baptized with the Spirit" = to be put into the 5 fold ministry.
But you are clueless about this, and the person that taught you this mess is the reason you are confused.
You are simply, like so many,.....one confused sheep,....who is just an unfortunate bi-product of faulty and erroneous theology.
So, the question isn't,,,,,, can you continue to be theologically inaccurate and keep posting harm to other Believers on Forums... (as obviously you are here every single day of your life doing this).......but the question is.......will you stop?....Are you able to realize your error and break away from your harmful doctrine that not only harms you, but harms every single person you address.
Thats the question.

Brother, I took the time and effort to post scripture about this subject.

And I said:

• They may have been born again, but they may not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

And your response is to go on a rant, and blast me, without addressing one single point of scripture.


33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

When a person has received the Holy Spirit baptism, it is accompanied with evidence that can be seen or heard.



And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

1. “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
2. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
3. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

again


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

1. when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
2. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
   
3. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
   
4. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
   
5. when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48

1. the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
2. were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles
   
3. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

When someone receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is accompanied with evidence that can be seen or heard.

• Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

JLB

 

[reba]

Our understanding , our interpretations or those of some Bible scholar are not always correct... they are our thoughts ...