Justin Case

[JohnDB]

Since many parts of English speaking Europe are in what they self describe as a "Post-Christian Era" and that many people simply don't know the basics of what and why we do the things that we do...

Holy, Holy, Holy is The Lord God Almighty.

Holy is a state of existence. Things that are holy are reserved for special purpose. Like the difference between sandwich bread and a communion wafer. Both are bread but one is holy.
Holy also means pure.
Holy also means good.
Holy also means perfect.

Holy doesn't mean a static state of existence. When something is holy that also means that it has a very positive reaction to things seeking to defile it. Nature has an order for itself. Sparrows are designed and created to sing songs, fly, and eat bugs, worms, and seeds. If a sparrow ceases to do these three things it is removed from the gene pool or becomes food for one of the other of God's creatures. The natural order of things being holy. Errors in this system, should they happen, are removed.

The Earth is in conflict with unholy (aka sinful) mankind. The earth, as a merely reactive force and not instinctive or cognizant) wishes to remove mankind from existence. God, however, has extended mankind what is referred to (for a lack of language) as common grace. (Grace meaning unearned favor)

God is good. God is not just good but is holy of the holy of the holy. If you were to take something that is holy and distill from it something even more pure, good, and error free and etc....And then take that and distill it again to become yet even more holy...That is the same state that God resides in. But God is infinite...The source of all things holy.

So...
The universe and God's state of existence craves a reaction to mankind's sinful existence... God's existence being the most holy and desiring the strongest reaction to us.

Holiness demands mankind's destruction. But God wishes for mankind to have a personal relationship with him. Mankind cannot be in God's presence because of his sinful state of existence.

Enter Jesus:

Jesus died in the most humiliating and degrading fashion possible. And Jesus was sinless. Meaning Jesus never deserved death...He would have never died if He wasn't killed.
But since Jesus was sinless He rose from the grave.

Now, Jesus' death squarely meets the fury of Holiness and squelches it allowing us to now see God and be in His presence.

Easter Sunday is a celebration of Jesus' victory over death.

 

[Chopper]

Here's an interesting thought my friend. Holiness? When was the last time you heard a compelling sermon on being holy? Like Germany, American Churches act like holiness is something the Prophets of old and the Apostles taught was necessary to have a vital relationship with God, but not now in many Churches. What a tragedy.

Currently, I'm studying a great book by Dr. Jerry Bridges called "The Pursuit of Holiness". He makes this comment...."Scripture speaks of both a holiness which we have in Christ before God, and a holiness which we are to strive after. These two aspects of holiness complement one another, for our Salvation is a Salvation to holiness."

Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

 

[JohnDB]

Here's an interesting thought my friend. Holiness? When was the last time you heard a compelling sermon on being holy? Like Germany, American Churches act like holiness is something the Prophets of old and the Apostles taught was necessary to have a vital relationship with God, but not now in many Churches. What a tragedy.

Currently, I'm studying a great book by Dr. Jerry Bridges called "The Pursuit of Holiness". He makes this comment...."Scripture speaks of both a holiness which we have in Christ before God, and a holiness which we are to strive after. These two aspects of holiness complement one another, for our Salvation is a Salvation to holiness."

Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Without the protection and covering of the Holiness of the Messiah we don't stand a chance to exist in Heaven.

I find that a basic understanding of the basics of our beliefs is often missing from average parishioners. So much so that where people know the "What" but not the "Why".
Where stated "Jesus died for our sins" is true...It doesn't tell us why He needed to.
Jesus' ressurection is especially a reason to celebrate because of the success of His payment for our sins while being sinless enough to not only pay for them but to live again.

Now where we cannot be sinless or be deserving of such a gift despite our best efforts to be sinless it is necessary to not treat the Sacrifice cheaply. Isaiah 1:16-17 says it rather succinctly. We must stop being evil.
The only Holiness that is sufficient to access Heaven is Christ's.
Any thoughts that our personally created holy behavior is sufficient to receive the reward of Heaven are ludicrous and the attitude surrounding such is yet one of the worst sins. (Self righteousness and judgementalism)

Holiness is a key crucial component to the Gospel message.

 

[Jim Parker]

Holiness? When was the last time you heard a compelling sermon on being holy?

Are you kidding??

That could drive out the tithing "toddlers in Christ" to another church that will coddle them and tell them they don't have to act like mature Christians.

There could be protesters holding signs saying "WE DEMAND CHEAP GRACE!!!".
We can't risk THAT!!! The pastor's got a new Mercedes to pay for.....it could bankrupt the family bus...er...Church.

iakov the fool

 

[By Grace]

The pastor's got a new Mercedes to pay for.....it could bankrupt the family bus...er...Church.

Can you name just one pastor (not a televangelist nor "name it and claim it preacher) who finances a new Mercedes?

It is possible for a pastor to have a gift of a Mercedes, but to buy it for him/herself is not very shepherd-like.

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you name just one pastor (not a televangelist nor "name it and claim it preacher) who finances a new Mercedes?

Absolutely. There are quite a few in the San Francisco bay area.
The finance their own Mercedes, and Jaguars, and BMWs and their children's cars and houses as well all on the "tithes and offerings" of the flock of sheep the fleece.

 

[By Grace]

Absolutely. There are quite a few in the San Francisco bay area.
The finance their own Mercedes, and Jaguars, and BMWs and their children's cars and houses as well all on the "tithes and offerings" of the flock of sheep the fleece.

Since when is anything in the SF area to be "normal" or be representative of any of the other 49 states?

Seriously, you are making an accusation about people whom you do not know, and about their finances which you should not know unless you were their confidential tax advisor.

Can you see where I am going with this?

 

[JohnDB]

Some guys and a few famous pastors take Holiness seriously.

Rick Warren is such a man. He gave away all HIS proceeds from the Purpose Driven books away. He lives off his associate pastor salary. I may disagree with him on a theological level but still can't say that he is fleecing the flock or is a pastor for financial gain.

Billy Graham was another one. He gave away the first years proceeds from his books away too. He kept the other. But his salary was the lowest of all television preachers.

There are examples on both sides of the aisle here. Unfortunately the avarice side has many more people on it than the "deny yourself" side.

 

[By Grace]

There are examples on both sides of the aisle here. Unfortunately the avarice side has many more people on it than the "deny yourself" side.

You are thus describing the difference between a shepherd and a hireling.

The finance their own Mercedes, and Jaguars, and BMWs and their children's cars and houses as well all on the "tithes and offerings" of the flock of sheep the fleece.

I cannot and will not judge these pastors. I can state that as the poster described those anonymous pastors, his words do seem to be more hireling than shepherds.

My spouse once worked for a Christian foundation (which I cannot name) that poured $ millions per year into Evangelical works world wide to reach the lost. The foundation also built major buildings on Christian universities. The owner of the charity had a personal jet, bought a new Mercedes 450 every two years, and had homes in Palm Beach and other places.

Therefore, it is not having the "things of conspicuous wealth" that is the problem; instead it is the heart of the people with the wealth. In order for the owner of the foundation to meet and greet and influence people of similar wealth, the entire wardrobe had to be the latest and the best, including custom made clothes. Target clothes would not cut it, nor would Sax.

 

[Jim Parker]

you are making an accusation about people whom you do not know,

Actually, I am reporting facts about people I DO know.

 

[By Grace]

Actually, I am reporting facts about people I DO know.

I stand somewhat corrected.

But that does lead me to other questions about how you know this as fact

The finance their own Mercedes, and Jaguars, and BMWs and their children's cars and houses as well all on the "tithes and offerings" of the flock of sheep the fleece.

1. Are these pastors "prosperity gospel" preachers?
2. In general terms, how have you come to have such detailed knowledge of so many "fleecers of the sheep"?

 

[reba]

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/forum-policies-and-rules.68537/

keep your cool guys not necessarily directed at the last poster

 

[Jim Parker]

Are these pastors "prosperity gospel" preachers?

They tend to preach whatever is the current popular message and to bring in "Christian celebrities" and alleged "prophets" in an effort to keep the keep the folks entertained and writing those tithe and offering checks.
They generally have large churches with 1000 to 5000 membership which provides a good income and produces infantile believers.

I've also worked with humble, struggling, preachers who have congregations of 20 to 50 and a part time job (like Paul's tent making) so they can feed their family and still preach the gospel. They tend to be much more concerned about presenting the pure truth of the scriptures as best they can than in what's in the offering plate.

In general terms, how have you come to have such detailed knowledge of so many "fleecers of the sheep"?

I live in an area where there are several large family businesses masquerading as churches.
No I won't name them.

iakov the fool

 

[By Grace]

I live in an area where there are several large family businesses masquerading as churches.
No I won't name them.

I am not asking you to name anything. I asked how you came to the knowledge that you make those accusations about those pastors.

By Grace said: ↑
In general terms, how have you come to have such detailed knowledge of so many "fleecers of the sheep"?

I wrote that as I did because you are making specific and serious allegations about those pastors:

Jim Parker said: ↑
The finance their own Mercedes, and Jaguars, and BMWs and their children's cars and houses as well all on the "tithes and offerings" of the flock of sheep the fleece.

How is it that you have such specific knowledge about the personal finances of the pastors in your area?

 

[reba]

And the topic is

Since many parts of English speaking Europe are in what they self describe as a "Post-Christian Era" and that many people simply don't know the basics of what and why we do the things that we do...

Holy, Holy, Holy is The Lord God Almighty.

Holy is a state of existence. Things that are holy are reserved for special purpose. Like the difference between sandwich bread and a communion wafer. Both are bread but one is holy.
Holy also means pure.
Holy also means good.
Holy also means perfect.

Holy doesn't mean a static state of existence. When something is holy that also means that it has a very positive reaction to things seeking to defile it. Nature has an order for itself. Sparrows are designed and created to sing songs, fly, and eat bugs, worms, and seeds. If a sparrow ceases to do these three things it is removed from the gene pool or becomes food for one of the other of God's creatures. The natural order of things being holy. Errors in this system, should they happen, are removed.

The Earth is in conflict with unholy (aka sinful) mankind. The earth, as a merely reactive force and not instinctive or cognizant) wishes to remove mankind from existence. God, however, has extended mankind what is referred to (for a lack of language) as common grace. (Grace meaning unearned favor)

God is good. God is not just good but is holy of the holy of the holy. If you were to take something that is holy and distill from it something even more pure, good, and error free and etc....And then take that and distill it again to become yet even more holy...That is the same state that God resides in. But God is infinite...The source of all things holy.

So...
The universe and God's state of existence craves a reaction to mankind's sinful existence... God's existence being the most holy and desiring the strongest reaction to us.

Holiness demands mankind's destruction. But God wishes for mankind to have a personal relationship with him. Mankind cannot be in God's presence because of his sinful state of existence.

Enter Jesus:

Jesus died in the most humiliating and degrading fashion possible. And Jesus was sinless. Meaning Jesus never deserved death...He would have never died if He wasn't killed.
But since Jesus was sinless He rose from the grave.

Now, Jesus' death squarely meets the fury of Holiness and squelches it allowing us to now see God and be in His presence.

Easter Sunday is a celebration of Jesus' victory over death.

 

[Jim Parker]

I asked how you came to the knowledge that you make those accusations about those pastors.

By observation.

How is it that you have such specific knowledge about the personal finances of the pastors in your area?

I didn't say that I had "specific knowledge about their personal finances."
I reported what was observable to anyone with functioning eyes. Them, their wives, and their children driving Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, and other expensive automobiles and living in big, expensive homes.

And do they preach tithing to their congregations? Eeeeeeeuuuu BETcha!

Why do you have a problem with my report of this sad reality?


iakov the fool

 

[Free]

 

[Jim Parker]

Oh! Yeah! The topic.

 

[JohnDB]

Oh! Yeah! The topic.

Yes,.
I find the topic of God's Holiness and Jesus' Holiness, death, and subsequent resurrection especially a great topic. It's the very foundation of our faith.

Jesus overcame death because of his holy nature AND had the perfect answer to our sin problem when we meet our Maker.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes,.
I find the topic of God's Holiness and Jesus' Holiness, death, and subsequent resurrection especially a great topic. It's the very foundation of our faith.

Jesus overcame death because of his holy nature AND had the perfect answer to our sin problem when we meet our Maker.

I'm presently working my way through The Holiness of God by RC Sproul in preparation with a chat with a friend.