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Kids Fighting Back

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You say using evil to stop evil is wrong but what do you know of evil? I'd like to know what you do for a living. It is probably an office job or something like that. Something safe where you are not questioned or put into life or death situations.
I indeed work in an office. However this does not mean that I cannot read the Scriptures and understand what they have to say about matters other than office work.

I am a police officer in a bad city. I have to deal with use of force often whether it be all out fighting or just getting someone in cuffs that's resisting. I have drove 120 MPH towards houses I may get killed in or have to kill in. I have responded to calls where people are getting robbed at gunpoint, where people are getting kidnapped and where houses are getting broken into. You know nothing of evil if you stand by your opinion on what the Bible teaches.
Error in logic. The fact that you have more direct experience in confronting evil that I do does not make you a more qualified interpreter of the Bible.

You say you can't shoot someone out of love. That is a horrible lie.
You have, of course, zero evidence that I am lying. Please raise the level of your discourse.

If someone pulls a gun on me and I shoot them, I am shooting them out of love. Love for my wife and family. If a drug addict addict is going to slit a child's throat and I shoot him, I'm doing it out of love for the child.
I know that it is a hard teaching, but Jesus says what He says - He tells Pilate that that the reason His followers are not fighting to save Jesus' life is because, in the new Kingdom that Jesus is initiating, violence is not on the table as a legitimate option.

I entirely agree that there are difficult questions here. But we must remember that our first obligation is obedience to the kingdom of God model that Jesus sets for us. That may well mean that we forfeit our lives. Hopefully not, but it certainly is a possiblity. Narrow is the way.

I've never struck someone out of hatred. I don't want to hurt anyone but make no mistake about it, I am going home at the end of the day. If that means putting a brick through someones head to stay alive I will do it.
Do you not consider it possible that self-sacrifice is part of the "cost" of being an obedient follower of Jesus. What do you think Jesus means when He speaks of people taking up crosses.

You have no place to judge people.
We are talking about what the Bible teaches about the matter of the use of force. In such a context, everyone is going to feel "judged". This is unavoidable in such a context. But we need to have the conversation.
 
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I still maintain this argument:

If all christians were as passive as some here say we should be, christians would have been wiped out years ago.
Were Indians wiped out when they went along with Ghandi's "pacifist" mode of dealing with the British?

Obviously, if you respond to deadly force with deadly force, you are probably going to do better, but perhaps only in the short term. But I suggest that one of the "advantages" of the pacifist model of dealing with evil is the shame it arguably engenders in the violent party.

I suggest that, at some point, someone needs to be self-sacrificial enough to break the cycle of violence that repeats through human history.

There is something foundationally wrong, I think, with the view that seeks to deal with evil by becoming more proficient in the use of evil's own weaponry.
 
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I hope when he goes to jail they get him. And I am not sorry that I said that, and I am still a Christian.

You hope they "get him" and you are comfortable with attaching that view to the title "Christian"? Well, fortunately for both of us neither you nor I is going to "judge" the degree to which either of our lives met the gospel calling. For my part, I read Jesus telling us to love our enemies as excluding hoping that are enemies get "offed" while in prison. But that's just me.
 
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I think now would be a good time to just drop the subject. I have mentioned this before, but will say it again.

You're all just beating a dead horse, myself included. No one is changing anyone's minds, just drop it.
 
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End of thread! Any more posting and you are banned:bigfrown

:toofunny
Did I say anyone would get banned? In my opinion the conversation is over since it's circular and the horse can not be an more dead than it already is.
 
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[/COLOR]
You hope they "get him" and you are comfortable with attaching that view to the title "Christian"? Well, fortunately for both of us neither you nor I is going to "judge" the degree to which either of our lives met the gospel calling. For my part, I read Jesus telling us to love our enemies as excluding hoping that are enemies get "offed" while in prison. But that's just me.
Yes Drew he needs to pay for what he did, to that poor defenseless 73 year old lady. I don't care what you say the moral law of the Old Testament still stands, and he needs to be dealt with and dealt with quickly so says the Bible. I would have no problem pulling the switch on this scum. Jesus did not abolish the death penalty. I wish that I was standing there when he was throwing gasoline on that lady, I would have tried to snap his neck in half. Or I would have tried to stop him by any means necessary and I mean any like throwing him down the elevator shaft. God is the one who invented capital and corporal punishment. And for such scum as the one below it needs to be enforced. Drew how would you like it if some idiot set your grand mom on fire. You wouldn't like it now would you ?

Police: Arrest made in New York elevator burning death

By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 8:13 PM EST, Sun December 18, 2011







New York (CNN) -- A 47-year-old man was arrested Sunday in the death of a 73-year-old woman who was set on fire in the elevator of her Brooklyn apartment building, telling police the woman owed him $2,000, New York police said.
Jerome Isaac faces charges of first-degree and second-degree murder, along with arson, police said in a statement.


The victim was identified as Deloris Gillespie. Isaac also lives in Brooklyn, but does not live at the address where the incident took place, police said in a statement.
Isaac told police Gillespie owed him $2,000 for work he claims he did for her, said NYPD Deputy Commissioner Paul Browne. He turned himself in to police overnight or early Sunday morning, he said.


Neighbors said the woman was returning home to her fifth-floor apartment in Prospect Heights after a grocery store trip Saturday.
A preliminary investigation showed the man was standing outside the elevator on the fifth floor and attacked the woman as she was attempting to exit, authorities said. The incident was caught on surveillance cameras inside and outside the elevator, and police have the videotapes, Browne said.


Authorities believe Isaac initially sprayed the woman with a flammable liquid, presumably gasoline, and continued to spray her as he followed her back into the elevator, Browne said. The woman was first sprayed in the face, he said.
Then, using "one of those long lighters that you would use for a grill, he lit a Molotov cocktail and used the burning leg on top of that to ignite her body," Browne said.


The suspect stepped out of the elevator, threw the Molotov cocktail inside, then returned again to spray more liquid on the woman as she burned, he said.
"This is as bad as it gets," Browne told CNN's Don Lemon.
Authorities responding to a 911 call of a fire found the woman's body inside the elevator. She was pronounced dead at the scene, according to the police statement.


Residents told CNN affiliate WCBS they heard screams and saw smoke -- and realized a woman was on fire inside the elevator.
"Myself and someone from the sixth floor went down knocking to get people out. Knocking on doors telling people 'There's a fire, get out, get out," a resident named John told the station. He did not want to give his last name.
Neighbor Carmen Martinez told the station the victim had lived in the building since the 1980s.


"She used to give toys and gifts to kids all the time," Martinez told the station.
"From everything we hear ... she was just this sweet 73-year-old woman," Browne said.
Photos that police released of the attacker show a man dressed in dark blue clothes, white gloves, with a dust mask on his head and carrying a container on his back. The photos were released during the search for a suspect, Browne said.
Isaac lived about 10 minutes away from Gillespie's apartment building, Brown said.



After the incident, he apparently returned home and ignited the door to his own apartment, he said.
He was concerned he had burned himself in the second incident, although no one else was injured, Browne said. He then hid out on a rooftop for a while and fell asleep, later going into a police station "reeking of gasoline" and telling officers he was responsible for a fire. During questioning, Browne said, he implicated himself in Gillespie's death.
It was not clear whether Isaac had retained an attorney.
 
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I think now would be a good time to just drop the subject. I have mentioned this before, but will say it again.

You're all just beating a dead horse, myself included. No one is changing anyone's minds, just drop it.
I am afraid that this is not how a thread works. We are free to continue posting as we see fit, as long we otherwise obey the rules of the forum.
 
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I am afraid that this is not how a thread works. We are free to continue posting as we see fit, as long we otherwise obey the rules of the forum.
As I stated in my second post and will clarify just a little more, this conversation is not productive in the least and probably hasn't been for many pages. I only see the same thing stated just a little differently.

Would it not be better to just agree to disagree and just move on to another topic?
 
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Yes Drew he needs to pay for what he did, to that poor defenseless 73 year old lady.
I am quite confident he will indeed pay - God will no doubt remember this event when he, like you and me, stand at the judgement seat.

I don't care what you say the moral law of the Old Testament still stands,....
What do you mean "I don't care what you say"? Are you not open to the possibility that the Law of Moses has been done away with? If so, you are at odds with Paul who repeatedly declares that its time had come to an end.

We need to remember that the Bible is not a catalogue of timeless truths. It is an evolving narrative. And the Biblical case is clear - the code of the Law of Moses - including all the death penalty stuff - has come to an end. Does the end of the Law mean no death penalty? No!! While I happen to believe that there should be no death penalty, it would be a violation of logic to argue my position on the basis of the abolition of the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was set in place by God for a particular people and for a particular time.

Surely you are not suggesting we should implement all the elements of the Law of Moses - you and I would quickly be in jail.

Drew how would you like it if some idiot set your grand mom on fire. You wouldn't like it now would you ?
Surely you must understand that just because I do not want to see this guy get killed in prison does not mean that I am in any way less morally offended by his actions.

However, moral outrage, yours or mine, is not the factor that determines what should be done with this guy. Jesus' command to forgive, love our enemies, and be healers is. Now please do not morph this into any kind of assertion that I do not want this guy to be sent to prison.
 
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As I stated in my second post and will clarify just a little more, this conversation is not productive in the least and probably hasn't been for many pages. I only see the same thing stated just a little differently.?
Based on my knowledge of the Bible, I believe there are other arguments, yet to be made, that generally support the pacifist position.

For example, one thing that is often ignored in reading the New Testament (and making the error of thinking "its all about us") is the rather clear implications that Jesus is criticizing Israel for its brewing inclination to use military force to get rid of the Romans. We have not got into that yet. And I think it is at least somewhat relevant in that Jesus' rejection of the military path in the "political" context arguably has implications for us as individuals.
 
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I suggest that it is not a coincidence that it is Barrabas who is exchanged for Jesus.

I am pretty sure that Barrabas was a zealot - one who was imprisoned for seeking to achieve victory over Roman oppression by the sword.

Not sure what the meaning is here, but, again, I suspect that very little in Scripture is "co-incidence".
 
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By the way, I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I would probably choose the "violent resistance" mode in some circumstances.

However, to concede that I would probably do so does not mean that I think such actions are in line with the kingdom of God.
 
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Based on my knowledge of the Bible, I believe there are other arguments, yet to be made, that generally support the pacifist position.

For example, one thing that is often ignored in reading the New Testament (and making the error of thinking "its all about us") is the rather clear implications that Jesus is criticizing Israel for its brewing inclination to use military force to get rid of the Romans. We have not got into that yet. And I think it is at least somewhat relevant in that Jesus' rejection of the military path in the "political" context arguably has implications for us as individuals.
Then do as you're going to do. I am going to bow out as my mind will not be changing and I know that those that support the pacifist view will not be changing their minds either.

As I said on another forum, the older I get, the more that I start to dislike arguments and no longer have the zeal to keep arguing as I once did. I am coming to the conclusion that I will say what I want to say and if it's not received will move on and not continue trying.
 
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Were Indians wiped out when they went along with Ghandi's "pacifist" mode of dealing with the British?

Obviously, if you respond to deadly force with deadly force, you are probably going to do better, but perhaps only in the short term. But I suggest that one of the "advantages" of the pacifist model of dealing with evil is the shame it arguably engenders in the violent party.

I suggest that, at some point, someone needs to be self-sacrificial enough to break the cycle of violence that repeats through human history.

There is something foundationally wrong, I think, with the view that seeks to deal with evil by becoming more proficient in the use of evil's own weaponry.
so you wouldnt mind if canda didnt have cops to enforce the laws?

seriously the only way for your way is to have all sinners killed in the judgment and those that did repent be set free from the sin nature.


until then we live in a imperfect world.

we cant make peace happen here as long as there sins there will be war and those who embrace it.

rich steal, i have heard of men steal things during disasters when they dont even need it.


cathars.

Cathars
Known in the Balkans as Bogomils and in northern Italy and southern France as Cathars, they were pacifists totally dedicated to non-violence. The Cathars were actually branded heretics, persecuted, and eventually annihilated by the Catholic Church through the Albigensian Crusade and the Inquisition that followed.<SUP id=cite_ref-22 class=reference>[23]</SUP> "These heretics are worse than the saracens" exclaimed Pope Innocent III, and on March 10, 1208, after the murder of the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau, probably by Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, the pope took full advantage of it and proclaimed a crusade against a sect in southern France.<SUP id=cite_ref-23 class=reference>[24]</SUP>
from wikipedia on pacifism.

didnt help them.

and also the anabaptists.(hutterites)

nearly wiped out in some parts of russia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites
 
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GojuBrian

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I will defend myself and my family with whatever force is necessary.
I am fully confident this is not against scripture.
 
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Drew the Moral Law of Moses still stands. There are 613 of them and the ones like don't sleep with your mother sister and don't steal don't kill, don't 2 men or 2 women have sex, don't rape, don't cause bodily injury to another person and so on, still stand. Or their would be consequences. So don't ever hit me with that one. Jesus did not take away the Moral Law of Moses, He took away the sacrificial law. Now in Old and New Testament times that scum bag who did that to that lady would have been taken outside the city and stoned to death or killed by another method.
 
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