LAW

[Eugene]

When approaching many scriptures involving law it is used as the argument against the immoral, the moral, and the religious righteousness excuses of the lost.

The law is the ministration of death written written and engraven in stone; a book of the knowledge of good and evil as it were. It kills all who sin and proposes they believe on Christ Jesus to be saved.

Men having had God revealed to them have become fools and worship all manner of uncleanness, and not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified, for by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What is God’s final judgment? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, BUT all can be justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[jocor]

When approaching many scriptures involving law it is used as the argument against the immoral, the moral, and the religious righteousness excuses of the lost.

The law is the ministration of death written written and engraven in stone; a book of the knowledge of good and evil as it were. It kills all who sin and proposes they believe on Christ Jesus to be saved.

Men having had God revealed to them have become fools and worship all manner of uncleanness, and not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified, for by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What is God’s final judgment? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, BUT all can be justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Good. Continuing on in the journey ... Once a person is justified, he/she should not continue breaking the very laws that resulted in their death penalty and that Messiah died to release them from. If your were an adulterer, commit adultery no more; thieves should not steal anymore; murderers should cease from murdering; idolaters should worship only the Elohim of Israel; Sabbath breakers should break it no more; liars should lie no more; the covetous should covet no more; etc. The Law/Torah is to be written on the hearts and minds of all who enter the New Covenant.

 

[reba]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good. Continuing on in the journey ... Once a person is justified, he/she should not continue breaking the very laws that resulted in their death penalty and that Messiah died to release them from. If your were an adulterer, commit adultery no more; thieves should not steal anymore; murderers should cease from murdering; idolaters should worship only the Elohim of Israel; Sabbath breakers should break it no more; liars should lie no more; the covetous should covet no more; etc. The Law/Torah is to be written on the hearts and minds of all who enter the New Covenant.

You are right, but faith in Christ 'keeps' some written laws literally, while that same faith in Christ 'keeps' other written laws in a not so literal way, yet are accepted by God as being completely and totally fulfilled and satisfied anyway. Christ being the fulfillment of the literal laws of sacrifice being the premier and most easily understood example of this truth. Christ is not a literal fulfillment of the law, yet God accepts him as the fulfillment of that law anyway.

The task of us New Covenant people of God is to know which ones are fulfilled by us in a literal 'letter of the law' way, and which one's are not, but which get fulfilled by us, nonetheless.

 

[jocor]

The task of us New Covenant people of God is to know which ones are fulfilled by us in a literal 'letter of the law' way, and which one's are not, but which get fulfilled by us, nonetheless.

Since we have many that would say a particular commandment must be kept literally and many that would say 'not literally', and both profess the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guide, how does one undertake that task to arrive at the truth?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since we have many that would say a particular commandment must be kept literally and many that would say 'not literally', and both profess the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guide, how does one undertake that task to arrive at the truth?

Find that place where the Spirit and the Word are in agreement. The failure on both sides of the argument seems to be in regard to the written word.

 

[JLB]

You are right, but faith in Christ 'keeps' some written laws literally, while that same faith in Christ 'keeps' other written laws in a not so literal way, yet are accepted by God as being completely and totally fulfilled and satisfied anyway. Christ being the fulfillment of the literal laws of sacrifice being the premier and most easily understood example of this truth. Christ is not a literal fulfillment of the law, yet God accepts him as the fulfillment of that law anyway.

The task of us New Covenant people of God is to know which ones are fulfilled by us in a literal 'letter of the law' way, and which one's are not, but which get fulfilled by us, nonetheless.

Good point Jethro.

Knowing which laws of God are to be kept by us, and which laws have no value against the lustful desires of the flesh, are what the anointing teaches us.

We also have the whole Bible and the Holy Spirit as a guide, to leads into ALL TRUTH.

ALL TRUTH is a truth that leads a child of God into an obedient loving faithful relationship with the Lord, and that is fruitful before our merciful and loving God.

Love does no wrong to men.

Wearing Jewish clothing and speaking Jewish words, and traveling on Saturday to a gathering... and then turning around and calling ourselves "Torah Observant", tends to lead astray those who are seeking to please God and serve Him, by getting caught up in a never ending ritual of the laws of Moses that have no value in a life that is commanded to be led by the Spirit.


I say this in all Love, as I know many of our Messianic brothers and sisters love God deeply and desire to please Him.



Peace!


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Find that place where the Spirit and the Word are in agreement. The failure on both sides of the argument seems to be in regard to the written word.

Yes, such as;
Mark 2:27
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".
And again;
Hebrews Chapter 4;
God appointed a certain day as "today", and everyday by resting in Jesus.
These things need to be understood so that no one should try to force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians.

 

[eddif]

I Timothy 1:8
Lawfull use of the law

Romans 2:14
The law is written on the new hearts of the Gentiles
(Pay bishop is to not muzzle ox)

eddif

 

[jocor]

Wearing Jewish clothing and speaking Jewish words, and traveling on Saturday to a gathering... and then turning around and calling ourselves "Torah Observant", tends to lead astray those who are seeking to please God and serve Him, by getting caught up in a never ending ritual of the laws of Moses that have no value in a life that is commanded to be led by the Spirit.

"Never ending ritual of the laws of Moses"? FYI - There are more NT laws (1050) that we are to keep than those through Moses (613). Is it OK for us to refer to those NT laws as "never ending rituals of NT laws"?

"No value"?

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what does Yahweh thy Elohim require of thee, but to fear Yahweh thy Elohim, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve Yahweh thy Elohim with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of Yahweh, and His statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
​

"in a life that is commanded to be led by the Spirit"?

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

Those that are led by the Spirit will be led to keep Yahweh's laws. Those that are not, but are carnally minded will not allow themselves to be subject to the law.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

​

 

[jocor]

Yes, such as;
Mark 2:27
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".
And again;
Hebrews Chapter 4;
God appointed a certain day as "today", and everyday by resting in Jesus.
These things need to be understood so that no one should try to force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians.

It is the Holy Spirit that has been trying to lead believers to keep the Sabbath holy for almost 2,000 years, as per Ezekiel 36:26-27, but they continue to fight against it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It is the Holy Spirit that has been trying to lead believers to keep the Sabbath holy for almost 2,000 years, as per Ezekiel 36:26-27, but they continue to fight against it.

I don't think I understand you.
Can you get to the point?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"No value"?

Correct. Specific old covenant, ceremonial law keeping does not solicit the work of the Holy Spirit in the believers life:

"5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:5 NASB)

 

[jocor]

I don't think I understand you.
Can you get to the point?

I don't think I understand you.
Can you get to the point?

In your first post you wrote, "These things need to be understood so that no one should try to force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians."

Some Sabbath keepers may try to "force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians" through their own power, but for the most part, I believe it is the Holy Spirit that has been using Sabbath keepers to teach non-Sabbath keepers the truth (via Ezekiel 36:26-27), but their message is being rejected.

 

[jocor]

Correct. Specific old covenant, ceremonial law keeping does not solicit the work of the Holy Spirit in the believers life:

"5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:5 NASB)

The Sabbath is not a "ceremonial law". It is a moral law which is one reason why it was included with the nine other moral commands of the Ten Commandments. It is totally immoral for someone to force another to work on the Sabbath when that person's Creator said not to work on the Sabbath.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In your first post you wrote, "These things need to be understood so that no one should try to force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians."

Some Sabbath keepers may try to "force a Saturday Sabbath on Christians" through their own power, but for the most part, I believe it is the Holy Spirit that has been using Sabbath keepers to teach non-Sabbath keepers the truth (via Ezekiel 36:26-27), but their message is being rejected.

I see.
But since I don't believe what you are saying, how would you rate my status as a Christian according to Scripture?

 

[reba]

Since we have many that would say a particular commandment must be kept literally and many that would say 'not literally', and both profess the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guide, how does one undertake that task to arrive at the truth?

Being a mom for ever ,a lot of my thinking goes the 'mom way'

We have 2 kids. (Now grown).. I could say to him ,the older, becareful dont be playing in the street.. He understood he could be playing baseball in the street but be on the look out no horsing around..
The same " becareful dont be playing in the street" to the younger and she knew to stay completely away from the street...
God is a BIG God the best His Word is written to us ... to the highly educated .. to the simple minded... and everyone in between.

 

[jocor]

I see.
But since I don't believe what you are saying, how would you rate my status as a Christian according to Scripture?

Why don't you believe it? How do you understand Ezekiel 36:26-27? Do you believe the Holy Spirit uses believers to teach other believers concerning many different subjects? Why not Sabbath?

As for rating you, I know nothing about you. You need to be concerned about how Yahweh views your view of His Sabbath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.. to the simple minded...

Whew! Relief!

 

[JLB]

"Never ending ritual of the laws of Moses"? FYI - There are more NT laws (1050) that we are to keep than those through Moses (613). Is it OK for us to refer to those NT laws as "never ending rituals of NT laws"?

"No value"?

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what does Yahweh thy Elohim require of thee, but to fear Yahweh thy Elohim, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve Yahweh thy Elohim with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of Yahweh, and His statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
​

"in a life that is commanded to be led by the Spirit"?

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

Those that are led by the Spirit will be led to keep Yahweh's laws. Those that are not, but are carnally minded will not allow themselves to be subject to the law.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

Never ending rituals of the law of Moses.

These were to lead us to Christ.

Christ Jesus and His Apostles have given us the commandments to live by today!

as it is written -

If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:37

2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare-- 3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. 2 Corinthians 13:2-3


1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8


We are not under the law of Moses!

Christ has redeemed those who were under the law!


JLB




​