Living Union

[netchaplain]

When I realize that I am in living union with the Lord Jesus Christ I am so identified with His interests that they become paramount to me. Few know it. Every distinct truth has its own characteristics. Christians in general are characterized by the knowledge of Jesus as their Savior; they praise God for the blessings of salvation. But the leading characteristic of union is, that your individuality is combined with the Lord Jesus; you belong entirely to another. The bride is merged with the Bridegroom.

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God.” (1 Pet 3:18). The man (old man, e.g. sinful nature—NC) under judgement has been removed* in the condemnation of the Cross, and you are brought to God as a new creation*. All that stood against you has been cleared away to God’s infinite satisfaction, and like the prodigal son, you are at home in the Father’s house. The Son of God has fully accomplished this infinite work, and here you must begin.

There is a grievous leaven in the church today, a great defect in the preaching of the Gospel. The Savior’s death is presented to the soul after the manner of the Law, where the pious Jew found relief for his immediate sins, but he still retained himself, the man which is at enmity to God. The illustration of a man pressed for the army, and finding a substitute to stand in his stead is not the Gospel.

The Gospel is that you are under the judgment of death, and that the Lord Jesus Christ has borne the judgment, not that you should keep the man who was under judgement, but that you should be completely severed from him (it—NC) in your death with Christ. “Old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.” The being who sinned* must go in judgement - not forgiven, but crucified (Rom 6:6—NC). It is not renouncing your bad works; every Christian would be ready for that; but are you ready to see all that is nice and amiable in you under the judgement of God?

The man who was under the judgement of God has been judicially terminated in the Cross, and the Man Christ Jesus so glorified the Father in the most distant spot, that He was “raised from the dead by the glory of the Father.” He is glorified, and now the Father is free to go out to the most distant spot, to a Saul of Tarsus, and receive him to Himself. He who measured my distance is the One who is the measure of my nearness!

The present issue is, “Is the man who was under the judgement of God, and who is removed from God’s eye in the Cross of His Son, gone from your side*? It is not only that you believe that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead, but that you are now on the field of battle as clear as He is. “As He is, so are we in this world” (1 Jhn 4:17).

How are you free from the dominion of sin? You have died (the old man is only crucified but not dead—NC) with Christ unto sin (Col 3:3). You have changed your man; you have passed in death from Adam to Christ. You have died with Him who died unto sin* and you are one with Him in His resurrection and ascension* (presently positioned with Him in both, they being inevitable to occur—NC). Hence you are told to believe—“Reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6:11). The Spirit progressively makes your reckoning a reality. “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free” (Rom 8:2; Gal 5:1) – (also, God—through “the Spirit Himself”—will always confirm to us that we are His children – Rom 8:16—NC).

- J B Stoney




Poster’s Opinion:
* “removed”: restrained but not eradicated.

* “new creation”: new nature added.

* “the being who sinned”: you in your old nature – Rom 7:17, 20.

* “all that is nice and amiable in you”: everything we might ignorantly consider to be good but actually isn’t.

* “gone from your side”: e.g. no longer dominating you, of which all reborn will eventually learn.

* “have died with Him who died unto sin”: only the Lord Jesus can “die unto sin.” This makes the believer “dead unto sin,” and how could one die unto that which he is already dead?

Will one born again ever have the desire to sin?—impossibly no! (Phil 2:13). This means those who profess faith and live (whether now are eventually) “after the sinful nature” have yet to undergo God’s “work” in them. This would be the result of never having been born again because He “conforms” all who are redeemed (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18).




Excerpt from MJS devotional for Oct. 13:

“Our Father is ‘a very present help in trouble.’ We may be sure that He who permits the suffering is with us in it. He was even in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). It may be that we shall see Him only when the trial is past; but we must dare to believe that He never leaves the crucible.”
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

 

[for_his_glory]

I view a living union to Christ as being stripped down as all things of our past are exposed to Him that we then are made renewed by His Spirit and contain all that is of Christ within us.

 

[netchaplain]

I view a living union to Christ as being stripped down as all things of our past are exposed to Him that we then are made renewed by His Spirit and contain all that is of Christ within us.

HI FHG - Nice to hear from you, and I agree with your comment! I always include the note that we still have the sinful nature because the new nature isn't the old one renewed. Hence "all things new"--not remade, right? Just being aware of this is half the production of our spiritual growth, because we need not be confused of why we still have wrong thoughts and unintentionally do wrong things!

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, we still have that sin nature for we have not yet been given our new glorified bodies and sin in this flesh will always tempt us to do things which we know are wrong to do, but as long as we are walking in the Spirit we will not give mind to the flesh Galatians 5:24, 25

 

[netchaplain]

Yes, we still have that sin nature for we have not yet been given our new glorified bodies and sin in this flesh will always tempt us to do things which we know are wrong to do, but as long as we are walking in the Spirit we will not give mind to the flesh Galatians 5:24, 25

I believe you are close when you say "sin is in the flesh." The "flesh" in the NT nearly always refers to, not the physical flesh as in the body, but the nature of man as in the old man, e.g. sinful nature. Thus the sin is the nature of our spirit and will be finally removed from our spirit when receiving the new body (as you've mentioned)--to go along with the new nature.

Same as phrases like "body of sin" (Rom 6:6); "the body of this death" (Rom 7:24); "the body of the sins of the flesh" (of the nature - Col 2:11). These all refer to the sinful nature: Greek sarx'; Definition IV in Strong's dictionary. G4561: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV

Gill's explanation:
"Not of outward calamities, but of indwelling sin is he all along speaking" . . . " Romans 6:6 calls "the body of sin"; that mass of corruption that lodged in him, which is called "a body," because of its fleshly carnal nature; because of its manner of operation, it exerts itself by the members of the body; and because it consists of various parts and members, as a body does," etc.
Romans Seven Twenty Four comment:
http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=45&c=7

I think it can be seen that the physical body is just and object (thing) and cannot incur sin but is subject to that which incurs sin--the sin nature (old man). The sinning is just the manifestation of the sin nature!

Thanks for the interesting comment!

 

[FreeGrace]

HI FHG - Nice to hear from you, and I agree with your comment! I always include the note that we still have the sinful nature because the new nature isn't the old one renewed. Hence "all things new"--not remade, right? Just being aware of this is half the production of our spiritual growth, because we need not be confused of why we still have wrong thoughts and unintentionally do wrong things!

Exactly, NC! The terms "RE-born", "NEW birth", "RE-generation" and the like all indicate something actually new. I'm particularly interested in the term "RE-generation", which seems to me to be a reference of a revival of something dead. The only thing I can think of that could be dead would be a human spirit. iow, we're born physically alive but spiritually dead. We have a human spirit, but it's dead.

Jesus told the woman at a well that one must worship God in spirit and in truth. I see that as needing a human spirit and needing God's laws/directions/requirements. Without both, no one can properly worship God.

That said, I believe God created Adam with a body, soul, AND a human spirit. And Adam had fellowship with God, through His human spirit. The warning about the tree in the original Hebrew says "in the day you eat of it, dying, you SHALL die."

Some just dismiss this as a Hebrew figure of speech emphasizing death. But I see it as the "dying" referring to the process of physical death over time, or what we call the aging process. We all wear out over time and die. The word "shall die" occurred on THAT DAY that Adam and his wife ate the fruit. What happened? They immediately lost all connection with God. When the LORD appeared, they did the only thing they could; they hid from Him. He had to initiate conversation. And provide the solution to their huge problem.

So, Adam's human spirit died that day. And he physically died 100's of years later.

So, when a person puts their faith in Christ, their dead human spirit is RE-generated, or born AGAIN and is now alive.

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can only reside in the NEW nature (human spirit), as it makes no sense to think He would indwell the corrupt flesh (body and soul), which Paul clearly describes as in conflict with the Holy Spirit:
"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal 5:17

 

[netchaplain]

Exactly, NC! The terms "RE-born", "NEW birth", "RE-generation" and the like all indicate something actually new. I'm particularly interested in the term "RE-generation", which seems to me to be a reference of a revival of something dead. The only thing I can think of that could be dead would be a human spirit. iow, we're born physically alive but spiritually dead. We have a human spirit, but it's dead.

Hi FG, and thanks for your reply and probing comments! I see it the same way if you mean dead spirit as in "dead in sins" (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), which also means, as I think you may agree, separated from God, because the spirit of a person or an angle is eternal. I believe the nature of a being (man/angel) determines the quality of their essence (weather they are holy or evil), so to address the individual 's spirit and soul (the soul being the deciding element of the spirit) is to address the nature, for how goes the nature, so goes the individual.

Thus I think it is the "crucifixion" (not eradication of its existence but restraint of the Cross) of the nature (Ro 6:6) which prepares the rebirth of the individual. I see it that the regeneration (rebirth via regeneration) of the individual's spirit and soul comes by the application of the new nature (it's all in the nature)--all via the Spirit, who is the Author of the Word and of our rebirth in applying Christ's expiation for our sin; and Jesus being the "Author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2).

I believe Col 3:3 ("ye are dead"--with Christ) is in reference to our separation from the "law of sin" (Ro 7:23, 25; 8:2), just as Christ "died unto sin" (Ro 6:10) we also are dead unto it. The law of sin declares that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20--per Gen 2:17).
The Messianic Jew is freed from the Law of Moses and the law of sin, but the Gentile only from the latter, for they were never under the former.

I see that as needing a human spirit and needing God's laws/directions/requirements. Without both, no one can properly worship God.

Would need more clarification to continue concerning "needing a human spirit." Do you mean one must first be born, where a spirit is joined with a body?

Hope I didn't rattle on too much!

Blessings Sis!

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FG, and thanks for your reply and probing comments! I see it the same way if you mean dead spirit as in "dead in sins" (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), which also means, as I think you may agree, separated from God, because the spirit of a person or an angle is eternal. I believe the nature of a being (man/angel) determines the quality of their essence (weather they are holy or evil), so to address the individual 's spirit and soul (the soul being the deciding element of the spirit) is to address the nature, for how goes the nature, so goes the individual.

I understand the soul and spirit are distinct, per Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Just as "joints and marrow" are related but distinctly different, the same for soul and spirit.

Would need more clarification to continue concerning "needing a human spirit." Do you mean one must first be born, where a spirit is joined with a body?

Isn't that what Jesus told the woman at the well? "Those who worship God must worship in spiriti and in truth". iow, one must have both spirit and truth in order to worship God.

I hoped that post #6 was clear about how Adam's spirit immediately died, while his body died over time. And how the human spirit is RE-born or RE-generated at faith in Christ.

Were there things that weren't clear in that explanation?

Hope I didn't rattle on too much!

Blessings Sis!

Nope. Not a sis. The generic icon above my name indicates male.

 

[netchaplain]

I understand the soul and spirit are distinct, per Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Just as "joints and marrow" are related but distinctly different, the same for soul and spirit.

Isn't that what Jesus told the woman at the well? "Those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth". iow, one must have both spirit and truth in order to worship God.

Yes, soul and spirit are different, as I showed in #7 that the soul is the mind or deciding element of the spirit (individual).

I hoped that post #6 was clear about how Adam's spirit immediately died,

I see it that Adam's death after the sin was the separation of his fellowship with God, hence being driven out of the Garden. But I'm still not clear about Adam's spirit dying, since a spirit cannot die.

while his body died over time.

I see this the same way as you.

And how the human spirit is RE-born or RE-generated at faith in Christ.

With you here too!

Were there things that weren't clear in that explanation?

Only what you're trying to explain about a spirit dying, but that's okay!

Nope. Not a sis. The generic icon above my name indicates male.

Seems like I made this mistake before with you. Thanks for the patience!

 

[FreeGrace]

I see it that Adam's death after the sin was the separation of his fellowship with God, hence being driven out of the Garden.

What died "on that day" then? Something did. It had to be the part of him that allowed worship of God, per John 4:24. After the fall, both Adam and Eve did accept the promise of the Messiah and both relationship and fellowship were restored.

But I'm still not clear about Adam's spirit dying, since a spirit cannot die.

Only what you're trying to explain about a spirit dying, but that's okay!

Eph 2 speaks of being "dead in sins". The term "spiritual death" is fairly common. And we know that the lake of fire is also described as the second death.

Yes, the soul will live forever, either with God, saved, or separated from God, in the second death, the lake of fire.

I don't believe an unbeliever has a human spirit. We all are born spiritualy dead. Only through faith in Christ is our dead human spirit RE-generated or born AGAIN, also called the NEW birth.

That's when a person is able to properly worship God, per John 4:24.

 

[netchaplain]

What died "on that day" then? Something did. It had to be the part of him that allowed worship of God, per John 4:24. After the fall, both Adam and Eve did accept the promise of the Messiah and both relationship and fellowship were restored.

Eph 2 speaks of being "dead in sins". The term "spiritual death" is fairly common. And we know that the lake of fire is also described as the second death.

Yes, the soul will live forever, either with God, saved, or separated from God, in the second death, the lake of fire.

I don't believe an unbeliever has a human spirit. We all are born spiritualy dead. Only through faith in Christ is our dead human spirit RE-generated or born AGAIN, also called the NEW birth.

That's when a person is able to properly worship God, per John 4:24.

I guess I don't know what you mean by "a human spirit."

 

[FreeGrace]

I guess I don't know what you mean by "a human spirit."

The Bible specifically distinguishes between soul and spirit (human):
1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So soul and spirit are dividable.

I think it's obvious that the human spirit is immaterial, as is the soul. Jesus noted that we must worship God in spirit and in truth. He could have said "soul", but He said spirit.

The terms "born AGAIN", "RE-generation", and "NEW birth" all have specific meaning. Since we know from Gen 2:17 that Adam and His wife DID DIE "on the day" they ate the fruit, we know that death was not physical, as they lived some 900 years after that. So, what died specifically? I would say the human spirit. Which clarifies what Jesus meant in John 4:24 about needing to worship God in spirit.

Man is born physically alive (with body and soul), but spiritually dead (dead human spirit).

Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation are said to be born again, re-born, re-generated. The only part that can fit this description is the human spirit. Not the body, and not the soul.

In addition, we know that at faith in Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit. This means He lives IN us. So, where is that specifically? Certainly not anywhere in the body or soul, which the Bible describes as "the sinful nature" or the "flesh". So, the only place left would be the born again human spirit.

It's sad that so few pastors even understand this, much less teach it. They just throw around the words "regeneration", "born again" without any thought as to what that actually means.

 

[netchaplain]

So soul and spirit are dividable. .

Thanks, got it.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can only reside in the NEW nature (human spirit), as it makes no sense to think He would indwell the corrupt flesh (body and soul), which Paul clearly describes as in conflict with the Holy Spirit:
"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal 5:17

I also wanted to share with you that I believe just as our body houses our spirit, it also houses the Spirit of God (1Co 6:19). Our spirit has a temporal life connection with our body--the material with the immaterial. But the Spirit presently has an eternal connection of life with our spirit, and latter with our new body--He being the Author of our new body (Rom 8:11).

I see it that it's not the body that's evil but is only subject to what is evil--the old man!

Blessings!

 

[FreeGrace]

[QUOTE="FreeGrace, post: 1379195, member: 7355"

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can only reside in the NEW nature (human spirit), as it makes no sense to think He would indwell the corrupt flesh (body and soul), which Paul clearly describes as in conflict with the Holy Spirit:
"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal 5:17

I also wanted to share with you that I believe just as our body houses our spirit, it also houses the Spirit of God (1Co 6:19). Our spirit has a temporal life connection with our body--the material with the immaterial. But the Spirit presently has an eternal connection of life with our spirit, and latter with our new body--He being the Author of our new body (Rom 8:11).

I see it that it's not the body that's evil but is only subject to what is evil--the old man![/QUOTE]
I wasn't referring to "evil", but the fact that our bodies are perishable/corruptible, per 1 Pet 1:23. The sinful nature is both body and soul, which is what we are at physical birth. It doesn't seem practical or logical that the Holy Spirit would take up residence in the body/soul.

What does make sense is that the Holy Spirit would take up residence in the born AGAIN, RE-generated human spirit, which is what is required to worship God, per John 4:24.

The "old man", a reference from Eph 4, refers to the body/soul. And is contrasted to the "new man", or our status as a new creature, because of the born AGAIN, RE-generated human spirit.

 

[netchaplain]

I wasn't referring to "evil", but the fact that our bodies are perishable/corruptible, per 1 Pet 1:23. The sinful nature is both body and soul, which is what we are at physical birth. It doesn't seem practical or logical that the Holy Spirit would take up residence in the body/soul.

What does make sense is that the Holy Spirit would take up residence in the born AGAIN, RE-generated human spirit, which is what is required to worship God, per John 4:24.

The "old man", a reference from Eph 4, refers to the body/soul. And is contrasted to the "new man", or our status as a new creature, because of the born AGAIN, RE-generated human spirit.

With the exception of our understanding being different concerning the body, I think we're pretty close in our beliefs in the rest on this issue. Thanks!