Bible Study Lords Supper

[stovebolts]

How do you view the Lords Supper?

1. Memorial
2. Celebration

I view the Lords Supper primarily as a Celebration and as a rededication of the Covenant (Jer 31:31) that was fullfilled by Christ when he said, "This is the blood of the Covenant"

I view the cross, as symbolic of the Alter. We join at the table to celebrate the new covenant in Christ's blood while wecommune with the body of Christ where Christ himself is the host.

Any questions?

God Bless.

 

[A-Christian]

Hello Stove,

I view the Lord's supper exactly as according to scripture, He said to view it; as His body and blood.
Sounds gross doesn't it? But he did say it, rather, he so forcefully conveyed it that many of those around him did not accept it and left. Jesus did not try to stop them. If he did not mean it that way, would'nt you think he would have said "hey wait, I did not mean it that way."

The scriptures show that the apostles accepted it as Christ said it as so do the writings of the earliest Church fathers prove that they did as well.

Peace

 

[tim-from-pa]

One thing that is rarely taught is what the elements mean. The blood (wine) is for salvation. If that's all that was needed, then the wine would be sufficient. What's the bread for? For physical healing on the same basis as salvation.

 

[garethppls]

I believe that Christ is present throughout the worship and the Eucharist, but I do not believe that he is physically the wine and the bread. Jesus carried out the first Eucharist during a Passover festival, which is a symbolic festival. I do not believe in transubstantiation, but I believe that Communion is a necessary ritual.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello A-Christian,

One day, I would really like to put together a proper redaction of John 6 as I believe it is ‘bigger’ than a literal interpretation. Perhaps if I’ve got the time within the next few weeks, I’ll put together another thread just for that topic. Until then, I believe that we can learn much more about the Lords Supper.

I suppose a good start might be digging into the Old Testament since Jesus proclaimed the new covenant on a celebration that was central to Israel. Of course, I’m speaking on Passover which I’m assuming everyone is familiar with the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.

Two things are core with the Hebrew nation. The first core item would be Covenant and the second would be the Exodus from Israel. These are key going forward with our study.

The term, “cutting a covenant†literally meant, “Cutting a covenantâ€Â. What would occur when a covenant would be “cutâ€Â, was an animal, such as a bull would be cut in half and the people that were making this covenant (promise) would walk between the animal. The notion was that if either broke their agreement, then they would be as the animal that they had literally cut in half.

Once the agreement had been drawn up and both parties agreed, they cut the animal in half, walked between them (very soberly I might add) and then in celebration for being in agreement, ate the animal as a celebration meal.

I would like to briefly direct you to the Covenant with Abram and God. Please read Genesis 15, emphasis on verses 9-18.

Now, moving forward to the Covenant with Israel,

Jeremiah 34:18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in two, and passed between its parts,

This passage in Jeremiah is in direct relation to the covenant at Mt. Sinai with Moses and Israel. Part of their agreement was written as what we commonly know at the 10 commandments. With this stated, I would like to post;
Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth you shall make for me, and shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings, and your peace offerings, your sheep, and your oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto you, and I will bless you.

First off, lets look at why they are making these offerings. The text states, “I will come unto you, and I will bless youâ€Â. From this text, it is clear that the purpose of the sacrificial offerings was so God could bless his people while they were in communion (fellowship) with one another and God.

To better understand this, one has to look at the two types of offerings mentioned above. We have the burnt offerings and we have the peace offerings. To spare some time, (and I can post if needed), the burnt offering was to be wholly burnt while only particular innards and portions of the fat of the peace offering was burnt and the rest was to be eaten by the community within two days in celebration to their commitment.

To briefly summerize the major offerings of Israel, there were three major sacrificial offerings that were core to the Hebrew nation. The first was the Burnt offering which was wholly burnt. The second was the sin offering. The sin offering once again consisted of portions of fat an innards being burnt on top of the burnt offering, but the meal was to be eaten only by the priests. Lastly, there was the Fellowship (peace) offering. As stated earlier, the fat and other innards were burnt but unlike the sin offering, it was to be eaten by all of Israel in a communal meal.

An example of a fellowship offering would be when Hannah went to dedicate Samuel to God’s service in 1 Samuel 1:24-25. Here, Hannah not only gives a fellowship offering, but also a drink offering and a grain offering. If you think about the size of a three year old bull, I’m guessing that it weighed around 800-1200 lbs. That’s a lot of meat to eat in two days!

I hope this gets us moving in the right direction as we focus on the theme of Table and what the table represents.
In short, alter represents sin and atonment while table represents fellowship and celebration.

Please let me know if there are any questions before moving forward. I don’t do well at articulating myself at times, so please ask questions.

 

[A-Christian]

Wow Stove, that was quite a post.
However, John 6 seems fairly clear to me though, especially once one understands that some of the wording actually translates into "chew".

1 Corinthians 11 also supports my belief that Christ is able to make himself available in the Eucharist. Paul is actually telling the Corinthians that they had better regognize that Christ is present in the bread and wine:

11:26. For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.
Quotienscumque enim manducabitis panem hunc et calicem bibetis mortem Domini adnuntiatis donec veniat

11:27. Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. Itaque quicumque manducaverit panem vel biberit calicem Domini indigne reus erit corporis et sanguinis Domini
Or drink... Here erroneous translators corrupted the text, by putting and drink (contrary to the original) instead of or drink. Guilty of the body, etc., not discerning the body, etc... This demonstrates the real presence of the body and blood of Christ, even to the unworthy communicant; who otherwise could not be guilty of the body and blood of Christ, or justly condemned for not discerning the Lord's body.

11:28. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. Probet autem se ipsum homo et sic de pane illo edat et de calice bibat
Drink of the chalice... This is not said by way of command, but by way of allowance, viz., where and when it is agreeable to the practice and discipline of the church.

11:29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Qui enim manducat et bibit indigne iudicium sibi manducat et bibit non diiudicans corpus



On top of that, the writtings of the early church fathers also indicate that bread and wine are indeed the body and blood of Christ. There is one man in particular names Ignatius, that hung around the apostle John for forty+ years; I would think that he knew how John felt about the bread and wine when he wrote:

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Peace

 

[evechot]

The Lords Supper is in fact the Memorial Supper of Jesus' death.

After Judas leaves, Jesus introduces an entirely new celebration, or commemoration, with his faithful apostles. Jesus takes a loaf, says a prayer of thanks, breaks it, and gives it to his disciples, saying; "Take, eat." Jesus explains; "This means my body which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in "remembrance of me".
When each has eaten of the bread, Jesus take a cup of wine, evidently the fourth cup used in the Passover service. Jesus also says a prayer of thanks over it, passes it to his disciples, asks them to drink from it, and states; "This cup means the "new covenant" by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf."
So this is, in fact, a Memorial of Jesus' death. Each year on Nisan 14 it is to be repeated, even today and every year on Nisan 14 we should remember the Lord's Supper by taking of the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus' death. Many of us do not celebrate the Death of Jesus on Nisan 14 or on April of the first full moon. We celebrate Easter [a pagan custom] or the Death of Jesus on the cross [Christian Memorial ] which is the right way of do it. As Jesus says, in remembrance of him. This celebration will call to the memory of the celebrants what Jesus and his heavenly Father have done to provide escape for mankind from the condemnation of death. For the Jew's who become Christians or Christ's followers, the celebration will replace the Passover.
The New Covenant, which is made operative by Jesus' shed blood, replaces the Old Law convenant. It is mediated by Jesus Christ between two parties, on one hand, God the Father and us [followers of Christ ] Christians. Besides providing for the forgiveness of sins, the convent allows for the oppurtunity of Everlasting Life in God's Kingdom and that we are followers of Jesus as his disciples were when they drank and ate with him remembrance of his death.

Read: Matthew 26:21-29; Mark 14:18-25; Luke 22:19-23; John 13:18-30; 17:12; 1 Corinthians 5:7 Exodus 24:10

 

[tim-from-pa]

Each year on Nisan 14 it is to be repeated, even today and every year on Nisan 14 we should remember the Lord's Supper by taking of the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus' death.

Agreed. I think Christians ought to be even more aware of the feast days of Israel and how they are fulfilled. On the bright side, I am seeing more and more interest and awareness in them when the subject is brought up than I did a decade or two ago. 20 years ago if you said the 14th of Nisan, probably many would have thought you were talking about automobiles.

 

[A-Christian]

today and every year on Nisan 14 we should remember the Lord's Supper by taking of the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus' death

Why not do it weekly or even daily like the apostles?

peace

 

[stovebolts]

Hello A-Christian,

I would much rather this be a Bible Study, rather than a setting of doctrines.

As far as the Church in Corinth, they were a church with many problems and divisions which Paul addresses in some of the verses you posted. Sadly, I believe you missed the bigger picture at what Paul was driving at.

Please keep in mind that Paul was once a religous zelot and had the entire OT put to memory. Have you ever wondered how many times he was at the alter? I believe that he realized what these items represented and what their function was. Thus, it is good to know a portion of what Paul knew when trying to relate to some of the things he said. Agreed?

Before we address the issues that are described in some of the verses you posted, I believe we will all be better served to start at the beginning and work our way toward Christ.

I wanted to focus on the theme of Table and then go on to the theme of Alter. Both hold significance when we come to the Lord's table which will better help us discern the body as a whole when we get to that point.

Are there any questions or comments on what purpose the table served?
Do we understand the difference between the covenant which was cut, and what the sacrafices represented?

 

[A-Christian]

I would much rather this be a Bible Study, rather than a setting of doctrines

Your right StoveBolts, This thread is for discussing conclusions as to what the Lord's Supper is, based on what a person pieces together during their own individual readings of the Bible. My conclusions are not based on vague biblical references but rather on straight foward biblical instructions coupled with evidence that demonstrates what the earliest Christians believed about the Lord's Supper. I have to side with those that actually knew and hung around with the apostles.

Peace :-D

 

[A-Christian]

StoveBolts,

I would like to listen to what you say though. Just don't throw too much out at one time. :-D

Peace

 

[stovebolts]

A-Christian,

If you wish to create strife, please create a thread of your own in Apologetics where you can debate your issues with protestants that wish to oppose your view. Neither is my desire.

Your thoughtfulness of others is appreciated.

 

[A-Christian]

Stovebolts,
I think you misunderstood me. I do have a view on the Lord's Supper. It may not match your view, but I will continue to read your thoughts on the subject because I am interested. Strife was never my intent.

 

[stovebolts]

Stovebolts,
I think you misunderstood me. I do have a view on the Lord's Supper. It may not match your view, but I will continue to read your thoughts on the subject because I am interested. Strife was never my intent.

Fantastic.

Since I would like to focus on the theme of table and it's relation to the Lord's Supper before we focus on the theme of Alter, perhaps you would like to bring us into the NT and take the book of Luke and show us the hermenutics that pertain to Table in reference to the meal?

I'll look forward to hearing your redaction in your own words without directly quoting your reference material, except your Bible.

 

[A-Christian]

It may take me a day or two, but I'll take a look at it and get back with you.

 

[A-Christian]

The table seems to be just that, a table. There is lamb on the table for sure because it is passover.

 

[francisdesales]

To those discussing these issues:

I would like to point out that the "Lord's Supper", technically, does not refer to the Eucharist.
The "Lord's Supper" refers to the agape meal preceding the Sacrifice, the Eucharist. Paul chastizes the Corinthians because their conduct at the Lord's Supper was not conducive to the proper reception of the Body and Blood in the following Eucharist. Paul goes on to discuss the problems involved with not receiving the Lord properly because of their poor conduct PRECEDING the Eucharist, not DURING it.

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Joe! I've glad you could join us!

Thanks for posting that, coming from me, it means little at this point not to mention that I'd rather establish what the Lord's supper is. By doing so, it should clear up the misconceptions that many have when going to Paul's writings to the church at Corinth in regard to the meal. (which was a full meal with leavened bread and glasses of wine, not simply a wafer of unleavened bread and a chalice).

Moving forward, here is what I've just written. I hope that it helps.

In regard to Table, Table is also a ministry where Jesus as host serves those who are present at his table. And yes, Jesus did institute the “Lords Supper†during Passover. BTW, Passover was a Memorial Celebration. Exodus 12:14 (NIV) "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD -a lasting ordinance.

The offering was made, and the community celebrated at Table. What happened at Alter, was the memorial and re-dedication of the covenant that was originally cut. In other words, there was ONE covenant where an animal was cut in two and those in agreement walked between the pieces (Jer 34) After that, the covenant was affirmed and celebrated each year.

The short of it is this, when we come before the Lord’s table as Christians, we re-dedicate our commitment to Christ when we partake of the fruit of the vine. (Christ died once) When we partake of the bread, we do so in celebration as a community united in Christ.

Now, back to the theme of Table and Jesus’ ministry at Table as recorded by Luke.

For ease, I would like to break the ministry of Christ where Table pertains.

There are 9 instances in Luke where Jesus is present at Table with 11 lessons. Horizontal categories are broken listed as;
1. Meal
2. Participants
3. Significance
4. Teaching moment

The instances are found in;
5:27-32
7:36-50
9:10-17
10:38-42
11:37-54
14:1-24
19:1-10
22:7-38
24:7-38
24:13-35
24:36-53

A-Christine, would you be willing to do some homework and provide a summary of each teaching moment in the above format as it relates to the theme of Table?

God Bless

 

[A-Christian]

Yes, I agree Francis, but "The Lord's Supper" is a common term used outside the Church when refering to the bread and wine. I hope you hang around in this thread as I might feel, after reading many of your post, that your input in Stovebolt's bible study might be of interest.

Stove, this study is what Catholics refer to the "Eucharistia", isn't it?


peace