mark 3:21 and the virgin birth

[doubting thomas]

if mary had an angel tell her she was going to have god's child, and joseph had a dream confirming this, why do we get in mark 3:21 that jesus' family thought he was crazy? surely they would believe their son/brother, considering the circumstances surrounding his birth

thanks

 

[Alabaster]

if mary had an angel tell her she was going to have god's child, and joseph had a dream confirming this, why do we get in mark 3:21 that jesus' family thought he was crazy? surely they would believe their son/brother, considering the circumstances surrounding his birth

thanks

His siblings and friends would have experienced their older brother behaving like a great kid and young adult for years until He was actually anointed into His ministry at age 30. It would have been then that they would have been confronted by that promise, and it would be very difficult to assimilate, knowing Jesus for so long as that carpenter's kid, and that great brother!

 

[reba]

Think about it.....

Would you really believe your relatives if they said this Child is God. Shoot folks dont believe it today.

 

[theLords]

Think about it.....

Would you really believe your relatives if they said this Child is God. Shoot folks dont believe it today.

Very, very good point.

Luke 16 (KJV)

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus said that even if a man comes back from the dead people will not believe.

It's interesting to note that James was Jesus' brother. His siblings, mother, father, and all His relatives had to come by faith and faith alone.

 

[doubting thomas]

Think about it.....

Would you really believe your relatives if they said this Child is God. Shoot folks dont believe it today.

i would, if my mother and father told me my brother was conceived without a man. at the very least i would expect mary and joseph to stick up for jesus, since they clearly know how special their son is, instead of letting his own siblings doubt him.

the fact that mark 3 tells us that his "mother and brothers" were there gives one the impression his mother also thought he was crazy. it makes no sense for his own mother, who knows the circumstances surrounding his birth, to call him crazy.

and yet in mark 3 we also have jesus rejecting his parents and siblings (we also get jesus lashing out at his mom at the canaan wedding). he sure is hard on the woman who gave birth to him. what happened to honoring your mother and father?

frankly, im surprised more people are not troubled by this (not necessarily his seemingly tempestuous relationship with his family, but that those in his own family thought him mad when their own mother and father can attest to the miraculous nature of his birth)

if mary gave birth to jesus a virgin, her children should not be questioning jesus' sanity. (and where are john the baptists' parents to defend jesus' sanity?)

 

[theLords]

I think your misconstruing things a bit which is the reason no one is troubled in the manner you are.

Jesus did not dishonor His mother at the wedding. He in fact honored her by doing what she requested even though it was not His time to begin His ministry.

Mark 6:4 (NIV)
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

 

[doubting thomas]

It's interesting to note that James was Jesus' brother. His siblings, mother, father, and all His relatives had to come by faith and faith alone.

not quite. mary was visited by an angel. and joseph was visited by an angel in a dream. so hardly "faith alone".

so the question becomes, why not give his siblings this dream or a visitation from an angel as well?

it's like the transfiguration, which has always bothered me. why not make this event accessible to more people? why not have an angel visit herod or caiaphas or pilate? but i digress... the point, i guess, is that god makes "faith" a lot easier for some than others.

personally, if my mother told me she gave birth to my older brother while a virgin, i would believe her. or i would at least not be so quick to call my brother mad, since i would expect my mother to stick up for him.

 

[doubting thomas]

I think your misconstruing things a bit which is the reason no one is troubled in the manner you are.

Jesus did not dishonor His mother at the wedding.

im misconstruing nothing when it comes to mark 3:21, which is what is at issue here. you'll notice i actually said im not that concerned with jesus rejecting his family - which is the opposite of having his family reject him.

and maybe there is good reason that all the prophets have been rejected. that too is something to think about.

 

[Mike]

It could also be that they said these things, not to themselves as though they believed He'd lost His mind, but for the crowd that had amassed. This could have been family instinct taking over. They see Him being (in their eyes) overwhelmed by massive crowds, so they are trying to extract Him from this situation. Think about this too. If the Divinity of Jesus is not True and there was a story being weaved in these Gospels, why leave this in? Why not take it out? Why write it at all?

Because there's not the contradiction you are finding in this account.

 

[doubting thomas]

Jesus did not dishonor His mother at the wedding.

where i come from, calling your mother "woman" and saying "why do you involve me" is considered rude. who calls their mother "woman"?

when we take this passage from john 2 with mark 3, we get a jesus who clearly shows great indifference to his own mother. hardly the respect she deserves considered she gave birth to him a virgin.

 

[doubting thomas]

If the Divinity of Jesus is not True and there was a story being weaved in these Gospels, why leave this in? Why not take it out? Why write it at all?

Because there's not the contradiction you are finding in this account.

that's a great point. but i think it has more to do with the veracity of the virgin birth. it makes sense that his mother doubts him if the virgin birth story is an invention (which i would point out really does nothing to undermine one's faith in the resurrection)

and i also dont think the woman who was visited by an angel would have any trouble standing up for her son in public. she seems to be abandoning him here, (she would never dare call the son of god crazy), when we know she did not abandon him in his hour of most need.

 

[theLords]

not quite. mary was visited by an angel. and joseph was visited by an angel in a dream. so hardly "faith alone".

so the question becomes, why not give his siblings this dream or a visitation from an angel as well?

it's like the transfiguration, which has always bothered me. why not make this event accessible to more people? why not have an angel visit herod or caiaphas or pilate? but i digress... the point, i guess, is that god makes "faith" a lot easier for some than others.

personally, if my mother told me she gave birth to my older brother while a virgin, i would believe her. or i would at least not be so quick to call my brother mad, since i would expect my mother to stick up for him.

John 20:29 (NIV)
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Those who believe without seeing are blessed.

 

[Alabaster]

where i come from, calling your mother "woman" and saying "why do you involve me" is considered rude. who calls their mother "woman"?

when we take this passage from john 2 with mark 3, we get a jesus who clearly shows great indifference to his own mother. hardly the respect she deserves considered she gave birth to him a virgin.

We cannot judge the mores of ancient Palestine by the culture of the 21st century.

Jesus respected His mother as He should. In fact, He went against cultural dictates with regard to women, giving them more honour than His contempraries did!

 

[doubting thomas]

John 20:29 (NIV)
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Those who believe without seeing are blessed.

seeing an angel (if only in a vivid dream) is not the same thing as seeing the resurrected body of christ. it just seems odd that his own family rejects him while he's alive (and thus are not blessed), even though they should know the circumstances surrounding his miraculous birth, and thus have no problem believing

 

[doubting thomas]

We cannot judge the mores of ancient Palestine by the culture of the 21st century.

Jesus respected His mother as He should. In fact, He went against cultural dictates with regard to women, giving them more honour than His contempraries did!

very good point.

but it is nevertheless has no bearing on why his mother would think him mad.

 

[theLords]

im misconstruing nothing when it comes to mark 3:21, which is what is at issue here. you'll notice i actually said im not that concerned with jesus rejecting his family - which is the opposite of having his family reject him.

and maybe there is good reason that all the prophets have been rejected. that too is something to think about.

Those who speak the Truth of God are rejected because the world does not recognize them.

Can anyone help me find this passage?

where i come from, calling your mother "woman" and saying "why do you involve me" is considered rude. who calls their mother "woman"?

when we take this passage from john 2 with mark 3, we get a jesus who clearly shows great indifference to his own mother. hardly the respect she deserves considered she gave birth to him a virgin.

You're looking at it from a 21st century perspective. To call a woman "woman" during that time was the highest title of honor one could show to a woman. It is equivalent to saying "Ma'am" in our time.

Jesus was sinless and kept the Law of the Prophets His whole life. Do you honestly think that Jesus broke one of the Ten Commandments? "Honor your Father and Mother"

 

[theLords]

seeing an angel (if only in a vivid dream) is not the same thing as seeing the resurrected body of christ. it just seems odd that his own family rejects him while he's alive (and thus are not blessed), even though they should know the circumstances surrounding his miraculous birth, and thus have no problem believing

Adam and Eve walked, talked, and had fellowship with the Lord in perfect paradise and still they sinned against God.

The Israelites saw the Lord split the sea and deliver them mightily from the Egyptians and 7 days later were grumbling at Moses (and God) convinced the Lord had brought them into the desert to die.

It took a young boy named David to stand up to Goliath because no other Israelite had faith that the Lord would deliver them.

Ever read that book "23 Minutes in Hell"? The author wrote that he went to hell and had nightmares about it for a long time. He even stated that 3(?) months later he doubted if he had truly gone to hell and asked God to give him another "glimpse" to confirm if this truly happened or not.

That gives a great insight into the the minds and heart of mankind.

 

[theLords]

very good point.

but it is nevertheless has no bearing on why his mother would think him mad.

The Scripture doesn't state His mother thought He was mad. The Scripture simply states "family" that could mean anyone. For all we know it was His uncles or cousins.

 

[Alabaster]

that's a great point. but i think it has more to do with the veracity of the virgin birth. it makes sense that his mother doubts him if the virgin birth story is an invention (which i would point out really does nothing to undermine one's faith in the resurrection)

and i also dont think the woman who was visited by an angel would have any trouble standing up for her son in public. she seems to be abandoning him here, (she would never dare call the son of god crazy), when we know she did not abandon him in his hour of most need.

There is no evidence that Jesus' mother was included here...or even His immediate family. There is only mention of people in Nazareth, His hometown and members of His family, not named.

 

[doubting thomas]

Do you honestly think that Jesus broke one of the Ten Commandments? "Honor your Father and Mother"

i think mark 3:31-35 can be read as disrespecting your mother. of course i understand the point jesus is making (in fact i think it one of the most beautiful things about his message, echoing galatians 3:28), but yes, i think it dishonors his mother and her special role to equate her as no different than anyone who does the will of god. i think it dishonors her to have mary come and get him, only to have jesus tell her to go away, i do not care to see you, that this is my new family.

when this is coupled with the tone he takes with her ("why do you involve me) at the wedding, one gets the sense that jesus does not, in fact, honor his mother.

of course this is a digression from the topic, which is why mary would think her son mad when she knows of the miraculous circumstances surrounding his birth