Mark of the beast - buying and selling?

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 13:15 (NIV)mean anything?

history repeats itself when one learns who the beast out of the sea is that gives power to the beast out of the earth are!!!

 

[JohnDB]

It means the 1st century Jewish temple leadership became corrupted by pagan Rome's ideals and began actively promoting them. Not that anybody is likely to accept that meaning.

Well to me, it seems that the mark is one that proves that you worship the beast. Because anyone who doesn't is killed.

It directly precedes the statements about the mark. It's the means of a pledge to the beast. Because if you don't pledge loyalty to the beast your money is worthless.

 

[smaller]

You said and I quote you: "Revelation 16 very clearly identifies the beast as one of 3 spirits of devils"
Can you tell us what these three spirits are?

I cited Rev. 16 and defer to the fact that "the beast" is one of 3 spirits of DEVILS. Go read it. See it.

And, if this IS so, then why don't people factor the entire WORLD of devils that go along with that unseen realm and instead they just see PEOPLE.

I swear people are blind to the obvious.

Who buys and sells SOULS of men? Do other men? Or do DEVILS?!

Do the spiritual math. It all adds up Perfectly when all the parties are on the table for viewing, even if most of them are UNSEEN. Which is exactly the problem with end time conversations. Most only have half a loaf to bring to the conversation. What they see externally ONLY. Which is rather pointless when it comes to end times.

And please spare me any conversations about the pope or the RCC or Jews. zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[smaller]

Well to me, it seems that the mark is one that proves that you worship the beast. Because anyone who doesn't is killed.

It directly precedes the statements about the mark. It's the means of a pledge to the beast. Because if you don't pledge loyalty to the beast your money is worthless.

All these folk were beheaded, presumably killed. YET they speak. go figure. Death isn't what it's cracked up to be.

Rev. 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Do you know who these are?

Satan and his messengers (OTHER DEVILS).

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

No, never said that. I just have this idea that God will take care of me somehow.

On this we agree. But he won't force his care on us. The Mark represents a choice, but we'll only make the right choice if we're prepared to confront our dependence on materialism. There's a whole world full of Christians out there with a slew of convenient doctrines about how God's provision will come in the form of following the money wherever it may lead, even if it's a microchip implant in the right hand (or forehead).

They will convince themselves this isn't the Mark because the Mark will be some kind of overt religious symbol , or that God would not allow them to take the Mark as one of the conditions of his protection, or that they won't be around for the Mark. Do you see how it works?

"Well, since I believe in pre-trib rapture, then this microchip implant in the right hand to control buying/selling can't be the Mark since I'm not supposed to be here for this part".

Or, "Well, since God isn't sending a lightening bolt to strike the syringe out of the Doc's hand before he implants the chip, I guess it's not the Mark".

Do you remember the "Left Behind" series of books by Tim LeHaye and Jerry Jenkins? They suggested that nothing can separate us from the love of God, including ourselves. In other words, one could take the Mark and it wouldn't matter anyway. Then, they took it a step further by introducing a test case where a kid with the (invisible) seal of God was physically forced to take The Mark. He went on to praise just how useful the Mark really was and termed his new found position "bi-loyalty". Dozens of millions of Christians read those books and received that message.

Perhaps, when the time comes you really will reject the Mark, but unless you're prepared to confront your dependence on materialism now, that choice will become more and more difficult.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Who are the players in the drama? If you see/say "only man" that is a wrong answer.

Sure, not only man has a role in the prophecy, but this is what the prophecy says about those who take the Mark, for buying/selling...

small and great, rich and poor, free and bond

Satan doesn't care about money or microchips, buying and selling etc except in how he can use it to turn us away from trusting God for our material provision.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Well to me, it seems that the mark is one that proves that you worship the beast. Because anyone who doesn't is killed.

It directly precedes the statements about the mark. It's the means of a pledge to the beast. Because if you don't pledge loyalty to the beast your money is worthless.

I don't think it's this black/white. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24).

Jesus didn't say one master would be God while the other would be Satan. He said the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy). To be sure, Satan wants us to worship him without payment and without shame, but God knew better. Satan is certainly an influence, but that's all he is; an influence. He can't force us to turn away from God.

The real enemy is ourselves; the choices we make as a result of the influence around us. Because we are physical creatures in a material world, it makes sense that materialism will be a huge issue for us. We struggle with it every day. Couple that with the freedom we have to ignore God (if we so choose) and we can very easily slip into a comfortable life with only trivial reference back to what God may want.

"Man does not live by bread alone" and yet the majority of the Church world genuinely believes they will die if they do not give their lives over to working for more bread. Consider Jesus' comments on the People of Noah and lots day (Luke 17:26-30). They were destroyed for their complacency; that was the root that led to all the other problems. They just stopped caring about what God wanted and cared only about the cares of this world.

There will be billions who take the Mark simply because they believe it's just another part of the economic system they depend on, but that won't matter to God because he's already make it clear through the teachings of his son and the conscience. There is no human alive who cannot understand that there is a problem with denying help to someone who needs it just because they can't pay for it and yet we persevere with this crooked system.

 

[Sinthesis]

Well to me, it seems that the mark is one that proves that you worship the beast. Because anyone who doesn't is killed.

It directly precedes the statements about the mark. It's the means of a pledge to the beast. Because if you don't pledge loyalty to the beast your money is worthless.

Observant Jews were faced with a conundrum of how to follow the requirements of Moses' law when their temple leadership(land beast) had sold out to the Romans(sea beast). In effect they had to think and act like Romans(mark of the beast) in order to participate in the Jewish Temple economy(buy and sell).

 

[Obadiah]

On this we agree. But he won't force his care on us. The Mark represents a choice, but we'll only make the right choice if we're prepared to confront our dependence on materialism. There's a whole world full of Christians out there with a slew of convenient doctrines about how God's provision will come in the form of following the money wherever it may lead, even if it's a microchip implant in the right hand (or forehead).

They will convince themselves this isn't the Mark because the Mark will be some kind of overt religious symbol , or that God would not allow them to take the Mark as one of the conditions of his protection, or that they won't be around for the Mark. Do you see how it works?

"Well, since I believe in pre-trib rapture, then this microchip implant in the right hand to control buying/selling can't be the Mark since I'm not supposed to be here for this part".

Or, "Well, since God isn't sending a lightening bolt to strike the syringe out of the Doc's hand before he implants the chip, I guess it's not the Mark".

Do you remember the "Left Behind" series of books by Tim LeHaye and Jerry Jenkins? They suggested that nothing can separate us from the love of God, including ourselves. In other words, one could take the Mark and it wouldn't matter anyway. Then, they took it a step further by introducing a test case where a kid with the (invisible) seal of God was physically forced to take The Mark. He went on to praise just how useful the Mark really was and termed his new found position "bi-loyalty". Dozens of millions of Christians read those books and received that message.

Perhaps, when the time comes you really will reject the Mark, but unless you're prepared to confront your dependence on materialism now, that choice will become more and more difficult.

You are quoting me on stuff I never said and then arguing against me on these things I never said as well as arguing against me on things I actually agree with you on. This is like having a conversation with a schizophrenic so I'm through with it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I cited Rev. 16 and defer to the fact that "the beast" is one of 3 spirits of DEVILS. Go read it. See it.

And, if this IS so, then why don't people factor the entire WORLD of devils that go along with that unseen realm and instead they just see PEOPLE.

I swear people are blind to the obvious.

Who buys and sells SOULS of men? Do other men? Or do DEVILS?!

Do the spiritual math. It all adds up Perfectly when all the parties are on the table for viewing, even if most of them are UNSEEN. Which is exactly the problem with end time conversations. Most only have half a loaf to bring to the conversation. What they see externally ONLY. Which is rather pointless when it comes to end times.

And please spare me any conversations about the pope or the RCC or Jews. zzzzzzzzzzzz

What does buying and selling have to do with Rev 16 for the seven vial judgments that are being poured out are from God upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't think it's this black/white. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24).

Jesus didn't say one master would be God while the other would be Satan. He said the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy). To be sure, Satan wants us to worship him without payment and without shame, but God knew better. Satan is certainly an influence, but that's all he is; an influence. He can't force us to turn away from God.

The real enemy is ourselves; the choices we make as a result of the influence around us. Because we are physical creatures in a material world, it makes sense that materialism will be a huge issue for us. We struggle with it every day. Couple that with the freedom we have to ignore God (if we so choose) and we can very easily slip into a comfortable life with only trivial reference back to what God may want.

"Man does not live by bread alone" and yet the majority of the Church world genuinely believes they will die if they do not give their lives over to working for more bread. Consider Jesus' comments on the People of Noah and lots day (Luke 17:26-30). They were destroyed for their complacency; that was the root that led to all the other problems. They just stopped caring about what God wanted and cared only about the cares of this world.

There will be billions who take the Mark simply because they believe it's just another part of the economic system they depend on, but that won't matter to God because he's already make it clear through the teachings of his son and the conscience. There is no human alive who cannot understand that there is a problem with denying help to someone who needs it just because they can't pay for it and yet we persevere with this crooked system.

Satan can force many to turn away from God. It is Satan that works through and gives power to the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the sea uses that power to command the beast out of the earth that by promising peace, safety and provision. He will use lying signs and wonders in the sky that can deceive the elect if possible to bow down and take his mark or in other words take loyalty to this beast out of the earth and those who refuse to denounce Christ to take his mark will be persecuted even to death, Matthew 6:24.

 

[smaller]

Sure, not only man has a role in the prophecy, but this is what the prophecy says about those who take the Mark, for buying/selling...

small and great, rich and poor, free and bond

Entirely dependent on "which" entity class is being observed.

It's just an unfortunate side effect of the scriptures when readers go to the people only auto-zone on these matters.

Satan doesn't care about money or microchips, buying and selling etc except in how he can use it to turn us away from trusting God for our material provision.

Which probably doesn't have a thing to do with what is being portrayed in Revelation, as prior touched upon in brief.

Scriptures do present spiritual and adverse spiritual "buying and selling" that are not connected to money or external marks whatsoever.

 

[smaller]

What does buying and selling have to do with Rev 16 for the seven vial judgments that are being poured out are from God upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him.

Uh, because that's the thread topic (mark of the BEAST) and that chapter is where the reference to the particular matter of BEAST identity is spelled out?

A very basic lesson about warnings in the scriptures is that these ARE warnings to DEVILS in the flesh.

Another basic lesson is that they don't listen, but actively resist Gods Dictates.

Need we go on with basics? Or do we prefer the half a loaf methodology of understandings?

 

[for_his_glory]

Uh, because that's the thread topic (mark of the BEAST) and that chapter is where the reference to the particular matter of BEAST identity is spelled out?

A very basic lesson about warnings in the scriptures is that these ARE warnings to DEVILS in the flesh.

Another basic lesson is that they don't listen, but actively resist Gods Dictates.

Need we go on with basics? Or do we prefer the half a loaf methodology of understandings?

I believe you have your chapters mixed up as Rev Chapter 13 deals with the OP with the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth as his mark is 666 the number of a man that dictates who will be able to buy and sell. Just as God works through man to bring glory and honor to His name Satan does the same as he demands glory and honor as he claims to be his own god. The seven vial judgments in Rev 16 have much to do with those who bow down to Satan and reject Christ as they too will be cast into the lake of fire with him, the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 13:15-18
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[turnorburn]

Can anyone see an image like that today?

 

[for_his_glory]

Can anyone see an image like that today?

since 1929 when it was healed

 

[smaller]

I believe you have your chapters mixed up as Rev Chapter 13 deals with the OP with the beast

Indeed. So does chapter 16. Do we "physically/literally" see this "wicked spirit?" Uh, no.

out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth as his mark is 666 the number of a man

Lucifer is also called a man. That doesn't mean he was a person. Satan is also called he/his in the scriptures. Still doesn't equate to Satan being a human.

What I like to point out (the completely obvious) is that there is an invisible kingdom with invisible occupants and invisible cities/capitals/nations that are dealt with at length in the scriptures. It's unfortunate when this oh so very critical component is overlooked.

People tend to believe only what they can see. That's now how the scriptures present things.

We don't see, physically/literally, Jesus' Kingdom NOR do we see Satan's NOR do we see the occupants.

Luke 11:18
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

IF "the beast" is this:

Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The matters of the mark of the beast is dealing with the unseen kingdom and the unseen occupants therein.

This much is CERTAIN.

 

[turnorburn]

i saw it back in 72 when my wife asked me to go to her grandparents church.. when i saw it i told her: if it only had life and could speak this was it.. since then I've seen it do both...

 

[for_his_glory]

Indeed. So does chapter 16. Do we "physically/literally" see this "wicked spirit?" Uh, no.



Lucifer is also called a man. That doesn't mean he was a person. Satan is also called he/his in the scriptures. Still doesn't equate to Satan being a human.

What I like to point out (the completely obvious) is that there is an invisible kingdom with invisible occupants and invisible cities/capitals/nations that are dealt with at length in the scriptures. It's unfortunate when this oh so very critical component is overlooked.

People tend to believe only what they can see. That's now how the scriptures present things.

We don't see, physically/literally, Jesus' Kingdom NOR do we see Satan's NOR do we see the occupants.

Luke 11:18
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

IF "the beast" is this:

Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The matters of the mark of the beast is dealing with the unseen kingdom and the unseen occupants therein.

This much is CERTAIN.

So you are saying the dragon, the beast and the false prophet are spirits that we can not see as they are not literal people Satan works through, but only spirits of devils.

Who is the dragon, but Satan himself that uses his unclean spirits to work through physical man. The three unclean spirits are spirits of demons that proceed out of the mouth of Satan who gives power and authority to his unholy trinity that is Satan, the beast (Luciferian priesthood) and the son of perdition who is the false prophet who speaks lies and teaches a twisted word of God that deceives the nations. These three spirits of demons send out wondrous signs to the political leaders (kings) of the earth and throughout all the nations as the signs are that of the monumental greatness of this modern day tower of Babel with its seat in Jerusalem as they make a name for themselves setting themselves above all that is God's, Genesis 11:1-9; Isaiah 14:12-14.

 

[for_his_glory]

i saw it back in 72 when my wife asked me to go to her grandparents church.. when i saw it i told her: if it only had life and could speak this was it.. since then I've seen it do both...

It does have life and it does speak. I visited one time and the Holy Spirit unction me to get up and leave right when it began to speak.