Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Marriage, fornication and porniea.

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00
In our day, the term "marry" seems to mean "undergoing a legal contract". Legal contracts are a fairly recent innovation. In earlier times, weddings were celebrations of marriage rather than marriage itself.

Consider the following use of "marry" by the early church historian Eusebius:

From Eusebius (260 – 340 A.D) Church History

AT this time the so-called sect of the Nicolaitans made its appearance and
lasted for a very short time. Mention is made of it in the Apocalypse of
John. They boasted that the author of their sect was Nicolaus, one of the
deacons who, with Stephen, were appointed by the apostles for the
purpose of ministering to the poor. Clement of Alexandria, in the third
book of his Stromata, relates the following things concerning him. “They
say that he had a beautiful wife, and after the ascension of the Savior, being
accused by the apostles of jealousy, he led her into their midst and gave
permission to any one that wished to marry her. For they say that this
was in accord with that saying of his, that one ought to abuse the flesh.
And those that have followed his heresy, imitating blindly and foolishly
that which was done and said, commit fornication without shame. But I
understand that Nicolaus had to do with no other woman than her to
whom he was married, and that, so far as his children are concerned, his
daughters continued in a state of virginity until old age, and his son
remained uncorrupt."


Eusebius indicated that the men who participated in the Nicolaitan practice of fornication with the wife of Nicolaus, were marrying her.

Eusebius also directly quoted Clement of Alexandria in his description of what Nicolaus had supposedly done in allowing anyone who wished, to marry his wife. Eusebius apparently thought that Clement used the word “marry†appropriately, as referring to copulation. At the same time, Eusebius stated that “Nicolaus had to do with no other woman that her to whom he was married.†Is Eusebius now using “marry†in a different sense from that of his quote from Clement? I don’t think so. When he referred to the woman whom Nicolaus was married, did he not simply mean the woman with whom he was living and with whom he had sexual relations?

Clement of Alexandria “Exhortation to the Heathenâ€Â, chapter 4

…and again that of Demetrius, who was raised to the rank of the gods; and where he alighted from his horse on his entrance into Athens is the temple of Demetrius the Alighter; and altars were raised to him everywhere, and nuptials with Athene assigned to him by the Athenians. But he disdained the goddess, as he could not marry the statue; and taking the courtesan Lamia, he ascended the Acropolis, and lay with her on the couch of Athene, showing to the old virgin the postures of the young courtesan.

Is this story not saying that because Demetrius could not have sex with the statue of Athene, and that the goddess herself was not personally available, he copulated with the courtesan Lamia to satisfy his needs? Is this not the way in which Clement defined "marry"?

Clement of Alexandria “Stromataâ€Â, Book 2, chapter 23

But they who approve of marriage say, Nature has adapted us for marriage, as is evident from the structure of our bodies, which are male and female.

This passage could be interpreted from almost any point of view, but it seems to me that Clement is saying that nature has adapted men for sexual intercourse with women as is evident from the structure of their respective bodies.

Eusebius “Church History†Book 3, Chapter 28

And Dionysius, who was bishop of the parish of Alexandria in our day, in the second book of his work On the Promises, where he says some things concerning the Apocalypse of John which he draws from tradition, mentions this same man in the following words:
“But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace.†These are the words of Dionysius.


Eusebius quotes Dionysius as explaining “the delights of the belly and of sexual passion†in terms of "eating and drinking and marrying.†He seems to equate "the delights of the belly" with "eating and drinking", and he seems to equate "sexual passion" with "marrying".
 
Caromurp;

This can be solved by one scriopture,said by Jesus himself:

"Whomsoever looks upon a woman lustfully has already comitted adultery in his heart"
-Mathew.


This established by the literal word of God himself that adultery starts with the eyes.

Adultery can be established to mean sleeping with someone else's wife or husband.Which is exactly what you are doing if you're having sex with your betrothed,as she isn't your wife.
By the literall Word of God adultery starts with the eyes and desires of the heart,not with a legal decree or official staute.



Yes,I am aware that your are due to be married,but being due and being married are NOT the same thing.

Example,let's say that an earthquake hits that calls you home to God the day before the wedding.You just died guilty unrepentant of sexual sin as you were not married .

To use a more earthly example,in the State of Illinois you cannot drive a car without insurance,and if you are caught without it its a $1000 fine and license suspension.

Now if you go before the judge and show a post-dated insurance policy that was valid after the traffic stop ,the judge will pound his gavel and seize your drivers license.

Just as the State of Illinois does not allow for future dated compliance with the law,neither does Jesus.

Repent of your sin,and walk into your new marriage with a clean and pure spirit.Don't burden yourself with fase purity propped up by legalism.

King David stands as an example.He comitted adultery with Bathsheba,then married her.

And what he did STILL displeased the Lord!
Ordering her husband killed was icing on the cake.Had David guarded his eyes that night he wouldn't have slept with Bathsheba.Notice that him being married after the fact didn't hold water before God!


I write this to bring clarity to your situation,not to condemn or pass judgement.

Silversmok3
 
Silversmoke,
I appreciate your sound advice, but PLEASE be aware of one thing...I did NOT start this thread :lol

Please go to the first page and read the other posts!! Below is just one of my replies to the OP, and as you can see, I am absolutely not the one advocating sex before marriage, and my fiancee (blazin bones) and I are not having difficulty with this issue.

caromurp said:
I am unclear as to what you are saying in your post. Are you saying that it is not sinful for two loving Christians to have sex before marriage? :sad
Please forgive me if that is not your intent..., I cannot agree. God has instituted marriage for the purpose of security, and as an expression of his relationship with his people. The church is the bride of Christ, but the culmination of the relationship will not be until the rapture, which is the set time appointed by God the Father. If marriage is an earthly example of this then it seems backwards to me to allow for premarital sex. Again, if that is not your point of view I appologize.

I do agree with you that people, especially Christians, should be encouraged to marry if they have found a suitable partner who is equally yolked with them (having the same spiritual maturity level and compatible callings). Our culture too often considers marriage as secondary to achieving success...the pressures are to finish your education first, earn enough money to buy a house and car, sew your wild oats, etc. But marriage and family should be viewed as the defining criteria for success, because you can have all the material things in the world and still be unfulfilled in life without a family, unless you are called to be single.

Jus wanted to clear that one up quickly :o
 
Sincere aplologies Caro,

This is directed at the OP ned flanders, I wrote my reply from my Blackberry :biggrin ,and your name was at the top of the browser.

I read the OP's first paragraph and was like :o
 
Two Christian's land on a desert island. They are virgins. They are in love.

The outside world is wiped out and there is never going to be a ship to rescue them.

What will they do? Wait for a pastor to come round and marry them ? Will God tell them to wait for a pastor? I do not think so.

I think they will get "married" and live happily ever after.

C
 
Sure, but in that case ther is no more "law of the land" to define marriage. Since our society's government says that we are not married until we have taken the neccessary steps, God will not view us as such either. :crazy
 
Cornelius said:
Two Christian's land on a desert island. They are virgins. They are in love.

The outside world is wiped out and there is never going to be a ship to rescue them.

What will they do? Wait for a pastor to come round and marry them ? Will God tell them to wait for a pastor? I do not think so.

I think they will get "married" and live happily ever after.

C

No Offense intended Corelius, but this is a classic example of loop-hole Christianity.

If we start trying to live in what if scenario's rather than what reality is, then we begin fragment and destroy the Christian faith. All it takes is for someone to suggest that Jesus was not born of a virgin or that the flood may not have been global and the integrity of our faith severly compromised.

As caromurp has pointed out, obviously if these two were the last two on earth, they would be commanded just as we are to be fruitful and multiply. Marriage does not need a ceremony, but that does not mean that sex should occur outside of marriage.
 
I have never looked at this before , but since this was posted, I can see for myself that this is indeed so in the Bible. If a couple has sex, they MUST get married......or else it it fornication. So if the fictitious couple on the island has sex, they too are then married, and should they ever be rescued, they must stay together. If they find themselves in the USA soon after, they then must submit to the law of the land and "get the papers". In some countries, jumping over a fire, means you are married.I live in Africa and all African cultures do not have pastors and wedding cake.



I can see in the Bible that they (the couple on the island )would not have been sinning in the time before they "got the papers" if they eventually "got the papers".


If they however,, the moment they were rescued, decide they want to go their separate ways, they would then both be in adultery.

I really do not think that this is the perfect way. I think the perfect way is to wait until you are married
 
That last point of your's make a huge difference. If it is not the perfect way, then how can it be acceptable to a perfect God?
 
I guess the fact that God did not judge or punish those who did this, would suggest that I must also not judge them.

" I think" just means that. My opinion. Not Scripture. Personally I see that a couple will have less problems (from society and Christians) if they just waited. That is why I say " I think" :)
 
Everything is cool BB, I did not think you were bashing me :) I like an intelligent conversation.

I must admit, that I have never seen this before in the Bible, but the thought had crossed my .......how shall I put it.....subconscious ?? LOL Its one of those "not sorted out" ideas. If you know what I mean. I do not have a strong opinion about it, but I must admit, when I re-looked at the given scriptures, I saw......OK well, this guy makes sense LOL
I can see that in some cases God ordered them killed....other cases, well no punishment, but they had to get married to avoid the punishment.

It also seems rather a fair deal to me.

C
 
I'm Confused.
Accrding to what most of you are saying on here... The first person you sleep with is the one you are to marry and if that person cheats on you, you are free to divorce.
My question is... What about Hosea and Gomer? Gomer was not a vergin when God told Hosea to marry her, she was a prostitute. Gomer also left Hosea and had children with other men and God told Hosea to go and get his wife...
This makes me question wether adultery is grounds for divorce. Why would God have told Hosea to go get his wife if the adultery broke the covenant of Marriage they had? And why would GOd allow them to be married if, Gomer was already married to the first man she slept with just by having Sex with him???
Could you explain this to me?
Thanks
 
Skylene,

God's purpose for having Hosea marry Gomer was not to illustrate divorce laws, it was to illustrate God's love and forgiveness to his people Israel who had committed spiritual adultery against him. Don't take it out of context.

And why would GOd allow them to be married if, Gomer was already married to the first man she slept with just by having Sex with him???
As for this question, He wouldn't. A marriage is not made by having sex, it is consumated by having sex. The two are different.
 
caromurp said:
Skylene,

God's purpose for having Hosea marry Gomer was not to illustrate divorce laws, it was to illustrate God's love and forgiveness to his people Israel who had committed spiritual adultery against him. Don't take it out of context.

And why would GOd allow them to be married if, Gomer was already married to the first man she slept with just by having Sex with him???
As for this question, He wouldn't. A marriage is not made by having sex, it is consumated by having sex. The two are different.
I agree with you I was jusmaking a point to the guy who said sex equalled marriage
 
The following is a true story. A man and a woman went as missionaries to a Catholic country. They decided to get married. But in order to get legally married in that country, a couple must be Catholic. The couple felt that would it would be wrong to become Catholics, and so they could not get legally married. So they simply committed themselves to each other for life, in the presence of God, and believed that God had truly recognized their marriage, and had blessed them richly.

Does anyone have any problems with that?
 
I don't have any problem with that. They were being obedient to God first. If their conscience forbade them to convert to Catholicism then ok, but in this country there is nothing that would go against one's conscience to prohibit them from following the laws.
 
it is impossible to have sex before marriage.

there is a reason it is called the "consumation" . The little ceremony in front of the priest is for show, the actual marriage occurs at intercourse (which is the same concept as Marrying two bottles of ketchup if u dont mind the crude analogy).

you either are getting married, or you are committing adultery. There is no such thing as pre marital sex.
 
caromurp said:
Well then what on earth is the Bible talking about fornication for?
Fornication is really a bad interpretation of the greek word PORNIA.
Pornia is NOT sex before marriage. Pornia is having sex with temple prostitutes.
It is not a sin to have sex before marriage. That is what has been twisted and taught thru out the years, thru false teaching. It is not biblical.

Temple prostitutes were extremely common thru out the bible days.The city of Cornith was infested with temple prostitutes who would worship false idols and demons. It was idolatry.
So when Paul said "flee fornication" (Pornia) he was referring to having sex these demon worshiping prostitutes...which of course is a major sin in God's eyes. It is not about premarital sex at all.

And when Jesus said "“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28

Adultery in bible days was stealing another mans wife. Or having sex with her without the husbands permission.
When Jesus said whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. He wasn't talking about having sexual feelings towards her. Sexual thoughts and feelings are not a sin. Jesus simply meant that who is planning on stealing another mans wife in their heart. Lusting..better interpreted as COVETING. Women were men's property back then.

In the ten commandments. You shall not covet your neighbors house; you shall not covet your neighbors wife. That is what Jesus is referring to in Matthew. Coveting someone else s wife is the same as committing adultery. Women were men's property back then.
Having sexual feelings towards someone who is not your spouse is NOT a sin. It is perfectly natural and God given. Most Christians are needlessly trying to block out all sexual thoughts towards anyone who is not their spouse. This my dears is NOT was Jesus meant.
 
Back
Top