Masturbation

[atmosphere]

Lady in Waiting:

I belive it is a sin. I respesct every guy out there that is trying to stop! God Bless you and know that this deshion to stop not will mean more to your future wife than you could ever know!

does anyone else notice the comedy here? someone with the Screen Name "Lady in Waiting" is writing about how men should stop masturbating, because their future wife will enjoy it more. dude, who are you in waiting for? are you even looking? or are you just waiting for it to fall in your lap? if my future wife is masturbating- then why shouldn't i? no no... i got a better one--
I used to be a sexual... beast (for lack of better terms)... and i have done a really good job of turning from that... if I shake it more than twice every now and then- i say that's better than chasing a girl down and introducing her to my mattress. i'm sure God would rather i did the former... infact- i'm sure of it! because i don't get that sick feeling of guilt in the pit of my soul when i get done moisurizing myself like i do when i'm handing that girl a towel to clean off her stomach. so- you tell me how masturbating is so terrible. why did i learn not to be ashamed of it when i was in 8th grade Health class? are you telling me my teacher was lying DEAD into my face? who does it hurt? how does it affect anyone? as long as you're not stroking it to "dirty pictures" then i say go nuts (no pun intended). It's not gonna kill you- or damn you to hell. God made young men that way on purpose... not to hold back until their balls explode! God has a sense of humor, but He's not sick about it! ...whatever

 

[saved]

PT 1

The Purity Challenge
Broadcast Date: 10/27/03

Bob: According to Josh Harris, all of us have a problem with lust.

Josh: I define lust as craving what God has said no to; it is wanting what you don't have, and that can be many different things. A married person can have a spouse that they are allowed to enjoy the gift of sex with, but if they set their gaze on someone other than their spouse, they are coveting what God has forbidden.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, October 27th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Is there a lust problem in your life and do you know what to do about it? Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. We're going to be talking about a subject over the next few days, Dennis, that is, I think, increasingly a challenge in our culture, because our culture keeps presenting us with opportunities for – well, opportunities for lust. And I might say here at the beginning of the program that some of what we're going to be discussing may not be appropriate for younger children. Parents may want to use some wisdom as we go through this subject.

But this is an ongoing battle, an ongoing struggle in our culture today.

Dennis: It is perhaps one of the oldest battles known to mankind – our battle around the subject of lust goes all the way back to the Garden, and when hearts chose sin instead of being obedient to God. And we have with us a real veteran of FamilyLife Today to help guide us through this. Josh Harris joins us back again for another edition of FamilyLife Today. Josh, welcome back.

Josh: Thank you so much. It's good to be with you.

Dennis: It just seems like the other day you joined us talking about kissing dating goodbye.

Bob: You referred to him as "the young monk." Do you remember that?

Dennis: I remember that. His monkhood didn't last long, though.

Bob: Turned in his robe a few years later.

Dennis: He kissed dating goodbye, kissed singlehood goodbye …

Bob: … and then kissed Shannon hello on the day that they got married.

Dennis: And now has kissed a couple of children hello. And Josh, of course, is a pastor near Washington, D.C., of Covenant Life Church; speaks nationally and leads an annual conference for college students called "New Attitude." Share with our listeners a little of what New Attitude is all about.

Josh: It's just a chance for us to gather singles together and to focus our attention completely on God. So we worship, we hear God's Word, we break down into small groups so we can get to know each other, and we've been doing it for five years now, and we have a great time.

Bob: Can I add a word of endorsement for this as well? I have two daughters who are alumnus of this conference. There was actually a young woman in our church, who wanted to go, and we were having conversation, and she said, "I'd really like to go, but I don't have anyone to go with," and I said, "I'd sign my daughters up for that," and I went to both of them and said, "Would you girls like to go?" This is one of those deals – Dad will pay for this and give you spending money to go to the New Attitude conference.

Josh: You didn't tell me you had to bribe them to get them to the conference. I thought they were willing to go to this conference.

Bob: We put them on the road, but they came back and really appreciated the strong biblical challenge and the opportunity to fellowship and, as a dad, I mean, what could delight your heart more than that, right?

Dennis: Yeah, exactly, and, you know, today the battle that we're talking about, the battle around the subject of lust, is one that's not just a battle for college students. It's for all of us today. Josh has written a book called "Not Even a Hint," and that, of course, comes out of Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 3, where Paul exhorts the church at Ephesus that there not even be a hint of immorality named among them. The subject of lust is really one, Josh, that you dealt with personally, along with several friends. In fact, it led you to a contract.

Josh: That's right. I led a camp and working with a group of guys there, we became close, and at the end of our time at this camp, we decided that we were going to demonstrate to God just how serious we were for Him, and so we came up with a long list of rules and agreements that we were making for the next year. And so we had things like we're going to go to church every Sunday, read the Bible every day, fast once a week, wouldn't go to movies, wouldn't make out with a girl – we were just putting everything on there that just sounded really spiritual, and one of the items on that list that had our particular attention was that there would be no sexual self-indulgence.

And so we signed this – we gathered together in one of the guy's living room, and we placed our hands on the contract …

Dennis: … kind of a blood covenant of sorts, huh?

Josh: … oh, yeah, it was serious. I mean, we didn't actually sign it in blood, but it was that kind of serious.

Bob: You were all single guys?

Josh: We were all single guys.

Dennis: How many guys were there?

Josh: I think there were about five or six guys. You know, college-age, and so we just looked at this, and we saw it and, you know, and I felt like heaven must be leaning in and just thinking, "Wow, what a group of men." God's men for this generation, and that particular item that I mentioned was number 10 on the list, and I went home just elated, ecstatic about this agreement, and about two weeks later I broke rule number 10. And that was the beginning of a year for me of realizing how incapable I was in my own strength of changing in this area.

Now, that's just one expression of lust. Obviously, not everybody deals with that particular issue but for me it was the beginning of an introduction that, you know what? My own rules, my own willpower, my own desire to be pure in and of my own power and kind of show God how great I could be just fell apart, and that was the beginning of a process of learning that to really change in the area of lust, I needed God's power at work.

Bob: Mm-hm.

Dennis: I think when it comes to the subject of lust there may be the assumption that we know what the definition of that is, but how would you define it?

Josh: I define lust as craving what God has said no to. It is wanting what you don't have, and that can be many different things. There are so many different expressions of lust – that definition allows us to recognize you know what? Even if my temptations with lust look different than someone else, it's still the same lie whether you're someone that deals with homosexual temptation or someone that's just tempted when you walk through the grocery store aisle, and those magazines are sitting there. It's all about wanting what God has said no to and instead of being content, we're looking for something else.

Bob: And we're in a culture today that is actively working to try to ignite our lust.

Josh: Absolutely. Our economy in so many ways is built on exploiting this – stirring up desire so that it can sell its cars, Coke, its whatever it might be, and we have to be aware that those temptations are going to bombard us, but there is a greater satisfaction.

Bob: It's almost, though, like you have to – if you want to insulate yourself from the problem, you have to drop out of society, or you have to figure out how to be so armored up as you go in, so protected, that you can make it through the battlefield without falling.

Josh: Well, I really believe that it starts with our hearts, and that's one of the things I didn't want to do in "Not Even a Hint," is just give a bunch of outward expressions of just change your behavior, because I've learned from experience that just trying to change your behavior, you know, snapping yourself with a rubber band, all these different kinds of things that we can do to just do the outward stuff – it doesn't really help us change. It has to start with our hearts before God.

Dennis: So hold it, hold it – snapping yourself with a rubber band?

Josh: You haven't heard of guys doing this? You wear a rubber band, and every time they think a lustful thought, they snap themselves. Here's another example – I got this letter from a guy. I mean, just passionate, I love his heart, but he and his friends there at school, they make this agreement that if one of them stumbles in the area of lust, looks at pornography or those kinds of things, the other guys will go without food for a day. And so he's saying, you know, we've built it up so that now, you know, there are dozens of guys that are depending on whether or not we …

Dennis: … are going to starve one another to death.

Josh: Well, exactly. You know, I love the zeal there, I love the heart behind it, but what I have learned is you know what? It's not that outward behavior, it's not the rules that we can come up with, it's not our contracts. We need the power of the Gospel at work in our lives. That's what ultimately leads to lasting change.

Dennis: I want you to share a letter you received from a young lady – not a man. Now, you'd think that the letter that you're about to read would be a letter from a young man who is struggling with lust, but this letter came from a young lady whose honesty – well, it got my attention.

Josh: She wrote, and she was dealing with Internet pornography, and this is just a portion of what she communicated. "I don't know who I am anymore. I am so scared. I do what I know is wrong. I have tried to stop – really, I have. I have cried and sobbed at night. I have prayed and kept journals. I have read books. I am honestly at a loss. I love God but I cannot continue to ask for forgiveness over and over and over for the same thing. I know I need help, but I don't know how to get it. I know that God has so much more planned for my life than this, but this sin continues to conquer me."

Dennis: A lot of people feel conquered by lust. That's what hit me by this is we can feel like we are enslaved, that we are literally carrying around a ball and chain, a weight of shame, and yet you say we have the wrong standard, the wrong source, and the wrong motive for fighting this sin.

Josh: That's right. I believe we have the wrong standards, and that we often set our standards at what we think we can accomplish ourselves. Okay, I think I, you know can not look at this and not watch this, and I set it at a goal that in my own human strength I think I can achieve, and the result is that we trust in the wrong source of power – the source of power in our own willpower.

And our motive is to feel pure; our motive is to be the kind of person that we think God will be proud of, and it really just falls apart, because what happens is if we trust in our own power, it ultimately fails, and then our motive just falls apart because we feel like, well, now I'm not pure, and I don't feel pure anymore, and so we lower our standards again. So, okay, I'll set it at a place where I think I can reach it, and I believe God wants us to do what seems like the exact opposite of what we should do – set our standards where He sets them, which is not even a hint.

And, you know, even when I look at the title of the book myself, I look at that, and I say, "There is no way that I can do that," and it drives me to the cross. It drives me to that reminder that I can only do this with the power of Christ working in me and the motive, the motive of grace – not the motive of earning, not the motive of I want to get my act together and I won't do this again, God, so you'll be proud of me – but the motive of because Christ died for my sins, I can pursue holiness in the confidence of His love for me.

Dennis: And you can do that in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Josh: That's exactly right.

Bob: I heard you tell a story once about picking out a romantic comedy at a video store that you later wished you hadn't picked up.

Josh: My wife and mother-in-law sent me out in search of a good movie, which is a daunting task. So I'm there and, sad to say, I was more focused on finding something new, finding something entertaining than I was wanting to really honor God, and so I – usually my standard is I want to check a movie out on a Christian website and get a recommendation from another Christian before I watch something, and I came across this PG-13 romantic comedy. I hadn't read anything about it, just trying to gauge from reading the back of it if it's any good …

Dennis: … that's dangerous …

Josh: … that's dangerous, exactly. And so it says there is sexual innuendo, and I'm just thinking, well, you know, I'm an adult, I can handle this. It couldn't be that bad – that kind of mindset. And I know that the Holy Spirit is saying, "Walk away, find something else, go back to the family section," and I, to my shame, I ignored that, and I started walking to the register with this movie, and the thought comes into my mind, "I hope I don't see anyone from church."

Now, when you have that kind of thought, anyone who is listening – if that thought pops into your mind, that's a warning sign something you're doing is not quite right. Well, I just sort of made my way to the register, anyway, and handed my video to the checkout lady and never seen her in my life and, all of a sudden, she's looking at the screen, and she looks at me and said, "Are you the Josh Harris who wrote, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye?" I just wanted to melt through that floor.

But it was a reminder for me of just, you know what? I need to be aware that God is watching me. I shouldn't be preoccupied with somebody seeing me from church. I need to be able to, before God, say, "I believe this is something that will honor you as I watch it."

Bob: You give a great definition – it's actually John Piper's definition of lust, in your book. Share that with our listeners.

Josh: Yeah, John Piper says that lust is a sexual desire minus honor and holiness. And so it's when we take that sexual desire, which, you know, sexual desire is a gift from God to us, but we take away any concern for what God thinks and any concern for what's best for another person, and you see that. You know, when a guy is flipping through a magazine that is exploiting women, he's not concerned about them. So that equation is helpful for me that – yes, sexual desire within marriage, even our sexual drives – they're not a mistake, it's not a curse for us as Christians, but we need to keep the fear of God and love for our fellow humans in that equation to make sure it's pleasing to him.

Dennis: Josh, one of the things that you talk about in your book is doing this personal inventory of identifying what trips your lust trigger, and I thought this was really good, because not all of these apply to every person, but all of us can identify with one of these or more.

Josh: I encourage people to look at things like the time of day in which they are consistently struggling. Is there a moment where you just feel tired and, boy, I want something to comfort me, whether that's at the end of the day or a certain time at work where you're tempted. Be strategic. Recognize "I need to be on guard in those moments." Tempting locations – you go to the mall; when you go to a certain friend's house or at the beach; wherever it might be, avoid certain places or only go when you know someone is going to be praying for you and asking you how you did in honoring God. Television, as we mentioned earlier – a huge area – what are you watching, what are you viewing? Newspapers and magazines – you know, I came to a place where I realized, you know what? I can't flip through the Style section of the newspaper without seeing some image, some little article or clip or something like that, I need to just avoid that section. That's just for me personally. I'm not saying any Christian who looks at that part of the newspaper is sinning, but that was a place for me to fight back in a specific area.

The music that you listen to – and I'm not even referencing music videos and the way artists can portray themselves, but the songs that we sing are going to either encourage us towards holiness or tear down our resolve. Books that we read – a lot of bestsellers today are filled with word pictures that just encourage an ungodly desire.

And then the Internet, which is not a small area for a lot of people, but one of those areas where I think we need to apply what Christ talked about pulling out our eye, if need be, you know, unplugging the Internet, unplugging the computer at your house, moving your computer out into a public area of your home – whatever you need to do to make sure that you are pleasing the Lord in the way you browse the Web.

Bob: Do you think there are some people who can – I'm thinking of the guys who are Christians who go write Christian movie reviews and have to see the movies to write it – are there some people who can expose themselves to some of the things you've talked about without it fueling their lust, or are we fooling ourselves if we think that?

Josh: You know, I can't speak to their hearts and what they're facing. I think that that is a very unique calling. Obviously, God will give grace in those situations, but I think we misapply the concept of discernment so often, and I compare it to someone saying, you know what? If you don't enjoy a calorie, it won't make you fat. In other words, if you just roll your eyes at it and say, "Oh, that's terrible. Hollywood – can you believe it?" That kind of thing – and disapprove that you're not affected by it, and I think we all need to evaluate, you know what? Those are seeds that are being planted, even if I'm disapproving, and I need to guard my heart and my soul.

Bob: Dennis, it's important for all of us to remember that Jesus took this subject of lust very seriously and said, in fact, if you have committed lust, you've committed adultery. In His mind, in His teaching, this is not a harmless sin, it's an offense to His holiness.

Dennis: And He recommended a radical word picture in response – if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. I think the issue here is He is saying go to the heart of the issue, and that is our hearts, and I think right now, after hearing us talk about this, we would be remiss if we didn't call both men and women to say, "So what? Okay, you heard this. So what? What are you going to do about it? Nothing? Are you going to normalize sin? Are you going to change any habits in the big things? How about habits in the little things like Josh was talking about?"

Because I agree with you, Josh. I think where the enemy gets us is not this giant leap into lust's arms. Instead, I think where he gets us is in the little choices. And so I just want to ask the listeners as a result of hearing what you've heard – the challenge of Paul – let there not even be a hint of sexual immorality be named among you – what are you going to do differently as a result of hearing these words?

And I would encourage you, if you're married, to tell your spouse what you're going to do – create a little accountability. So my challenge to men and, for that matter, women, whether single or married – and, by the way, the singles who are listening – the college students, the young single professionals listening to this broadcast – you need this, too. None of us are exempt. Find a friend, a same-sex friend, to talk to and to share what you're going to do. What is your action point out of not letting there be even a hint of sexual immorality being named in your life?

 

[saved]

PT2

Finding the Power to Change
Broadcast Date: 10/28/03

Bob: If you think that there is nothing wrong with a little lust now and then, listen to Josh Harris. He says you're believing a lie.

Josh: Lust comes with a lie. A little sinful fantasizing won't hurt. Lust says taking radical action against sin isn't necessary. We've all heard that line – "Well, you don't have to get radical about this," and yet Romans tells us that setting our mind on the flesh brings death. Galatians says that sowing to the flesh brings spiritual ruin and corruption.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, October 28th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Do you need to take some radical action in your life to deal with the issue of lust?

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. We're going to talk today a little bit about the other side of the story. You remember a couple of months ago we featured a message on our program about the subject of modesty from C.J. Mahaney, who is a pastor in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Dennis: And we heard from a few of our listeners.

Bob: We got a lot of feedback, including this letter that I thought was interesting, that came from a woman who is a 40-year-old married mom who was a little taken aback by our conversation about modesty. She said, "C.J. didn't go into the reason why women dress immodestly. And the blame for that goes to Christian men." She says, "When I was growing up, I always dressed modestly; wore simple, tasteful dresses most of the time; rarely wore jeans; my mother was strict with my clothing. However, you can't imagine how painful it is, as a woman, to hear all the boys talking about the very beautiful other girl – the one who is dressed immodestly."

And she took us to task a little bit in this e-mail. She went on to say, "I still dress modestly in church, but outside of church I often dress immodestly, and I've noticed how I am much more respected and treated as someone special when I look 'attractive.' It's time to tell men to stop their bad behavior that makes women want and, yes, even need to dress immodestly. It's not right, and it hurts deeply."

Well, we thought, "Okay, we're going to get one of the guys who is on C.J.'s pastoral team, Josh Harris, who has just written a book about lust, to come join us and tell men to stop their bad behavior.

Dennis: What do you think about that, Josh? Do you think the real problem is with the men?

Josh: I think that we're all sinful, but I think we all need to recognize that no one else can make us sin, and I would say to any woman who feels more respected when she is dressed immodestly, you ain't being respected. You are being lusted after, and it's not love, and it's not something to desire. Yes, you get more attention. That's absolutely true. The girl that is dressed immodestly is going to get more attention, catch the guy's eye. It's another one of those examples of will you love the praise of men or the praise of God? Which are you going to live for?

Bob: At the same time, what this lady is saying about there being a problem with men …

Josh: … absolutely …

Bob: … we are, as Proverbs describe, we're like stupid oxen when presented with a temptation. Oftentimes, we just kind of glaze over and are led astray. We really fall in this area.

Josh: Well, I think this is so true, and I think this is a place where men should really grieve and repent before God for all the ways in which they have encouraged this in our culture and Christian men are at the forefront of that. You know, we're the ones that have bought our ticket and supported the movies that propagate this, we're the ones that give more attention, at times, to girls that are dressed immodestly. But for women out there, I think it's so important to see, and I address this in "Not Even a Hint." I want this to be a book that it serves women to see that it's not just men forcing you to do something. What that's revealing, and I'd encourage them to see, is what that's revealing in your own heart is that you – you want that lust, you want that kind of attention. I think that's a way in which a woman's lust is uniquely expressed. They want to stir up something in a man, and they love the feeling that gives them.

Bob: We kind of jumped right into the subject without even really introducing our guest today, didn't we?

Dennis: Well, I think many of our listeners know who Josh Harris is. He is the author of a book we featured a number of years ago called, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." My kids love that book. Oh, they were wild about that.

Bob: They were thrilled. We'd bring it home and say, "Here, you kids need to read this."

Dennis: It was like I brought a rattlesnake into the house among my teenagers. Josh speaks nationally and leads an annual conference for college students called "New Attitude." He is a pastor in Gaithersburg, Maryland, at Covenant Life Church with C.J. Mahaney, and he and his wife Shannon have two children.

Bob: And if any of our listeners would like more information about the New Attitude conference, we've got a link on our website that can give them information. The conference happens during Christmas break every year, right?

Josh: The first of the year, exactly.

Bob: So if folks would like more information, they can go to our website.

Dennis: Yeah, we found out yesterday Bob bribed his children to be able to go to this, and I would thoroughly endorse that and say …

Bob: … it's appropriate bribery.

Dennis: I think it is. Give them a little spending money and send them to this conference, because it will be a great spiritual stimulus to love and good deeds.

Josh has written a new book called, "Not Even a Hint." It comes out of Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 3, where Paul exhorts us, "Let there not even be a hint of sexual immorality named among us," and, Josh, you point out how lust is really a lie.

Josh: That's right.

Dennis: Or leads us into several lies, and I thought this was one of the parts of your book that our listeners really ought to get here, because we don't see, many times, past the enticement of lust or what it really offers.

Josh: That's true. Lust never comes and tells us, "Here is where this is going to really lead. You are going to do this, you're going to look at this magazine and watch this show, you're going to indulge, and you're going to feel miserable, you're going to hate the consequences." It never mentions any of those things. It never talks about the disappointment and disillusionment.

Dennis: You're going to break your marriage covenant.

Josh: Exactly, you're going to destroy your family.

Dennis: Yeah, you're going to show disrespect for your spouse and ultimately end your marriage.

Josh: Yeah, we don't hear any of those things. We hear promises. We hear, "This is going to feel good. This is going to be the thrill that you've been lacking. This will bring lasting pleasure," and so I've learned that the only way to fight these lies is not to argue, "Well no, it won't be that good; it won't feel that great." We can't argue on our own opinion. We need to bring Scripture. The Bible refers to itself as the "sword of the spirit." This is the only offensive weapon that God has given us and, really, only Scripture can cut through the lies of lust.

Let me give you some examples – lust comes with the lie, "A little sinful fantasizing won't hurt," and yet Romans tells us that setting our mind on the flesh brings death. Galatians says that sowing to the flesh brings spiritual ruin and corruption. Lust says taking radical action against sin isn't necessary. You've all heard that line, "Well, we can – you don't have to get radical about this," and yet Jesus said if your right eye causes you to sin, cut it out. In other words, be radical. 2 Timothy says flee the evil desires of youth. Don't hang around, don't look at what you can handle – flee.

Lust comes with the lie that God won't mind a little compromise, and yet Colossians 3 says put to death whatever belongs to the earthly nature. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. That's like a cup of cold water in your face, when lust is lying, "Hey, God doesn't mind. He looks around, and He says, 'Well, everybody is compromising, so it's no big deal.'" No, God is holy, and His wrath is coming on this very sin.

Dennis: Here is a lie that I've heard, and I've heard other people express – "Looking at a few pornographic pictures won't affect me."

Josh: And this is where the Book of Proverbs is so powerful. It says, you know what? If you follow that adulterous woman down her path into her home, and that can be in the form of a movie, that can be a pornographic image – it's going to lead to your ruin in life, and it really describes the consequences. It says, "Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned?" And I love Psalm 101, verse 3, that says, "I will set before my eyes no vile thing."

Dennis: You know, Josh, in all of these lies, the actual temptation to take the bait is not sin. It is just an enticement to sin. It's a bait, like a worm on a hook to a fish, to try to get us to take the lie and believe it and act on it. It's not wrong to hear the lie, it's wrong to believe the lie and embrace the lie and take action based on the lie.

Josh: And what's so wonderful is that God's promises are better. Lust gives us a lie that too much purity is going to keep you from seeing and enjoying beauty, and what I'm grateful for is that God doesn't just offer threats of what will happen if we do what's wrong. He offers us promises of how much better it is to obey Him. So He says in Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." What an amazing promise. All the images that this world offers us, there is something that's more beautiful. You walk in purity, you walk in holiness, and God has promised you will see Him.

And then this one in Isaiah 33:17 – "Your eyes will behold the King in His beauty. They will see a land that stretches afar." Lust comes and says, "Right now is all that matters. This moment is all that matters. Pleasure right now." God says, "No, there is a greater pleasure, there is a greater reward that is waiting for those that will trust Me and obey Me."

Bob: You mentioned talking to a woman who confessed an issue of lust. We don't typically think of lust as being an issue for women, but as you've talked to women, as you've talked on this subject, you've had a lot of women who have said, "I deal with this, too."

Josh: It's been a real education for me. I first gave a message on this topic of lust two years ago, and it was for all men. I was asked to speak, and I gave this message, and I was overwhelmed by the response from the men – the encouragement. But what really shocked me was that women started writing and saying, "We'd like to hear this message, too," and, frankly, I didn't want them to. I didn't want them to hear what I was confessing in this message to guys, but as they continued to ask and say, "No one ever talks to us about this, no one ever addresses this issue." I said, "Okay, fine." They began to listen to this tape in small groups and dialog about it, and I learned, through that experience, that there are many women who deal with thoughts, they deal with impure desires, but because so few people are willing to talk about it, the women deal with even more shame, which hinders them from receiving God's grace by going to another lady and confessing this.

I've had several ladies say it's a taboo subject. I feel like if I confess it, the other women are going to look at me and say, "What planet are you from? How can you struggle with that?" And yet Scripture says these things are common to man, common to humankind, and none of us should feel that our particular area of temptation is unique. We need to realize God's grace can help us to change.

Bob: Is it different? Do women lust differently than men do?

Josh: I think, from the letters that I've received, and even as I wrote the book, what I did is I had an assistant who did all the interviews with women, all the interaction, because I didn't want to have that one-on-one interaction with women on this topic. But as she informed me and my wife Shannon, what we heard consistently is, number one, there are women out there that deal with lust in ways that you might call the traditional male way. So that happens, that's common. But I think what's more common is they deal with lust on the level of wanting to be desired.

I got a letter from a lady who said, "You know what? What I have experienced is that a man and a woman driving down the street who see a provocative billboard of a woman, the man will be tempted to desire the woman; desire her sexually; to have. Where the woman will be tempted to want to be like that woman so that she can get that desire from other men." So I think the temptation is to use sexual appeal as a tool of manipulation.

Bob: It's like the e-mail from the woman that I shared at the beginning of the program, where she said, "I dress immodestly not at church but in public because I'm more attractive and people pay more attention to me."

Josh: Dr. Al Moeller said to me in a conversation once, something I'll never forget. He said, "Men are tempted to give themselves to pornography; women are often tempted to commit pornography." You never have to star in a pornographic movie or pose for a picture to commit pornography. If you are someone who is dressing and acting in a way primarily designed to stir up lust in other people, you are committing pornography with the lie. The temptation is different, but it's still lust coming with a lie – "Here is how you'll be satisfied apart from God."

Dennis: You know, it's interesting what we're talking about here, because it, in a way, does explain why some women choose to dress immodestly. They are seeking approval, attention, perhaps without even realizing it, are seeking to stimulate men to come to them.

Last summer I had the opportunity to go to China, and the women in China were dressed incredibly modestly – very modest. And I was in China for over 10 days and didn't realize how modestly the women were dressed until I came back to America, and it was like a bucket of cold water thrown over me. Western Civilization doesn't even realize how far we have gone with our dress, especially with our daughters. And I think what needs to happen today is the fathers – yes, the mothers, too – but I think the fathers need to call their daughters to really understand the heart of a man, the anatomy of lust, and to dress appropriately so that these desires are not stirred up in the opposite sex.

Bob: I just want to step up on the soapbox here with you for a minute, if I can.

Dennis: I'll slide off to the side, Bob.

Bob: I would encourage women – you can be attractive and modest simultaneously. You don't have to be unattractive. Don't assume that modesty automatically means a lack of attractiveness. It's appropriate. It adorns the Gospel well to be attractive.

At the same time, I would encourage single men – if you see women dressed modestly, go over and talk to them, spend time with them, affirm them, give attention to them as sisters in Christ. Encourage them – and you don't have to walk over and say, "I see you're dressed modestly. I came to encourage you." You can just go over and say, "Hi, what's your name?" And chat with those women so that they get the message, "I don't have to dress like the other girls I see who have got the boys around them."

Dennis: That's a good word.

Bob: Guys can be proactive in this regard and in a healthy way affirm our sisters who are trying to do it right.

Josh: Mm-hm, and I think it's so important, too, that we not judge women who are dressed immodestly – that we pray for them, that we love them as sisters. I think many are naïve. They just know that they feel better, they feel like guys pay more attention, and some are not really thinking through the fact that they're stirring up lust. So let's maintain that focus that we're the worst of sinners, that we are accountable to God, and I think that's great – encouraging those that are dressed modestly, making a statement that how much we appreciate that.

Bob: I want to ask you a question – do you have victory in this area?

Josh: I am experiencing God's power to change. I have not experienced victory in the sense that there is no longer temptation. On a daily basis, I need to ask God for help. I think too many Christians want some experience of "victory" that means they don't have to fight anymore, but I believe what God wants to do is to trust Him in the midst of the struggle and so prove the reality of the victory that Christ accomplished for us.

So I'm not saying we shouldn't desire to put this to death completely, but when I've spoken to older men, older women about this, what I hear consistently is the battle doesn't go away, but God's grace is there for all of us.

Bob: And I think, Dennis, that's important, because even as I was asking the question, I was thinking the time when I will have complete victory in this area is when I am dead. Prior to that, I don't know that I'll ever have complete victory.

Dennis: Yeah, I was thinking how I would answer, and I had similar thoughts, and then my mind raced to Galatians, chapter 5, verse 16. Paul said, "I say then, welcome His spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another that you do not do the things that you wish."

And it goes on to say that but if you are "led by the spirit, you are not under the law, and you're not going to carry out the desires of the flesh." And I would answer your question this way – I am experiencing victory as long as I walk in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is the power who raised Christ from the dead and, I promise you, if He can defeat death, He can help you defeat lust. The question is – will you yield to Him or will you yield to the flesh?

 

[atmosphere]

you've got to be kidding... i am not going to read all that- why don't you be human and put it in your own words...

 

[saved]

atmosphere if length keeps you from seeking truth then my guess is that you stay away from the bible. If you do not want to read it that is fine, but such issues do not get short answers. We are to reason things and that sometimes takes a great deal of discussion. As far as being human comment I suspect that you decided to slander out of frustration however the result is the same it brings judgement on yourself.

 

[atmosphere]

dude... a topic about masturbation does not require that much dribble about it. stroke it if you feel like it, if not then don't. the bible is more interesting than that crap, so don't assume i don't read it, because of it's length. i'm not that interested in what you think about playing w/ one's self (and it's not even your own thought, it's someone elses... unless you wrote that piece of dialogue... but you didn't). it's not that important, there are other things to worry about- which is my point about the whole topic anyway- if you beat yourself off, don't beat yourself up. focus on something else.

 

[saved]

Like I said, I suspect that you decided to slander out of frustration however the result is the same it brings judgement on yourself.

 

[Vic C.]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Lady in waiting]

Atmosphere-I am waiting for someone. :Fade-color :B-fly:

 

[rebornpunk]

A Chick's View on Masturbation

So I'm not sure if a woman's point of view on the big "self-pleasure" debate is welcomed here, but I'll give a shot. Women have the same problem a lot of the time, so why not make this a multigender topic?
Okay, so the way I see it is: a sin is basically anything that draws you away from God.
Now I don't know about you, but the last thing I'm going to do while I'm in the midst of self-pleasure is picture Jesus Christ standing in the room. And how many of us even want that image? What do you think the expression on your closest friend's face would be watching that? Now picture Jesus's face instead.
Another way of looking at it is "What would Jesus do?" Now please forgive me if I'm being too Fundementalist, but I just can't even bring myself to dare the thought that Christ would have spanked the monkey occassionally when some Israelite chick smiled at him in a flirty way. Was He tempted? I'm willing to bet He was. The Bible tells us He was tempted in the same ways we all are, and I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that even Christian chicks have trouble not reverting to "nympho-mode" once in a while. So, yes, I believe Christ went through puberty fighting off arousal. But the key word is "fighting". When temptation- even the natural temptation of sexual longing- came knocking, he didn't budge, because He refused to sin, and giving into even a godly desire in an ungodly way was not acceptable for the Holy Lamb of the World.
Now if Jesus wouldn't do, I sure as heck am not going to justify it in the least.
And if you need more reasoning, think about this: how often are you only more horny on a steadier basis when entertaining it through masturbation? It only strengthens the drive, and reinforces the habit. When I was really doing it a lot, I'd wake up from an erotic dream (surprise, surprise, chicks have wet dreams) doing it in my sleep, so habitual had it become. That's when I knew it was a problem.
I pray that you will be strengthened with the desire not to please yourself (in any way, not just this) but rather to please God who died for us, and so let His approval rain down on you, His precious child.
Should you beat yourself up for it? No. I'm a hypocrite when I say that, I know, because I still slip into it sometimes, and I do beat myself up over it. However, that's another bad habit needing breaking, and once we know that we are forgiven, we should look no more upon it. Leave it with God. It's all He wants.
If you're struggling with it, make sure to pray about it. God may be holy, but it isn't like he has virgin ears. He hears the confessions of whores and child-molesters. A masturbater is no less precious to him because of his or her sin.
May God bless you and lead you in all paths of righteousness,
Steph<>< :angel:

 

[Saryn]

ok. i see a few things here.
1: i have seen only one person actually give some encouragement and advice on how to deal with it. this should not be. ildrummerboy86 said he was stuggling, that he was having a hard time controling it. this tells me that he has been convicted and is now trying to change. and what do we do? we start discussing the immorality or morality of masterbation. i agree with sharing ideas on this forums. however, sharing is not the only purpose. another purpose is to encourage and help out our brothers and sisters in Christ. while i do sometimes argue my morals and convictions, mostly rather heatedly, we should not argue amongst ourselves when or brother, ildrummerboy86, is in need! help, encourage our brother here. debate moral convictions in another post.

3: lets look at masterbation as a moral issue. its either moral or its not. people for it say, who can it hurt. i will ask them, who can it hurt to be a porn adict? it is not the act that is the sin, it is the reason. and the reason is lust. pure an utter lust. what do you look at porn for? to get yourself up there. and what happens? you opinion of women degrades. the become objects. and now lets look at the definition of masterbation.

masturbation
n : manual stimulation of the genital organs (of yourself or another) for sexual pleasure

now i have to think if its causing sexual pleasure, is it or is it not sex. i would say if its causing an orgasm (which is does) then its sex. lets look at the definition of sex.

Sex

Sexual intercourse

hum. does trhe Bible or doesnt the Bible say that sex before marrage is sin. yes it does. so what this says to me is masturbation is sex.
(lildrummerboy86 i am not condemning you. at this point i am stating my convictions. ill address you alittle later k?)

2: i see a varity of opinions here. but, when i see a man saying its comedy for a woman to express her opinion on a matter that is not limited to men it really annoys me. especially when he later says that the choice is having sex with a girl or wack it. those are two evils. does the Bible say, choose the lesser of two evils, or does it say flee from the very sight of sin. there is another choice, God and purity.

3: wack it if you feel it. well, if thats true could i say if you feel the need, take a gun to school and blow the first one to tick you off away?

4: i see that lildrummerboy86 has yet to respond to any of the posts here. why is that? he started it. why would he not reply also. maybe its cuz he sick of the arguement over moral and immoral. maybe we should stop debating and start encouraging our brother who is in need.

for lildrummerboy86: here is what i want you to do. everytime you feel the urge coming, start praying. pray everyday, anytime, whenever. God will get you through this, through God all things are possible. next go to a youth pastor or mentor you trust. seek their advice also. most of all. keep seeking God. as you progress in your walk with God, as you become closer to Him, He will refine you. He will mold you into what He wants you to be.

Peace be with you.

 

[invictus]

k, so i understand where some are coming from. masturbation can become adicting... balance is key. hold on, i'll explain:

we all get rowdy. it's natural. it's part of our genetic code. some are more so than others. it's not a sin to be "horny". now, you can either walk around ALL day trying to resist the urge to rub one out or you can just do it. lets take a look at the difference between the two: trying to resist only makes resisting harder. when you feel it, you feel it bad. and it doesn't go away. you can pray all day, and that doesn't really seem to help. it's seriously tough. SO TOUGH in fact, it can take your focus off of the things that need your focus. now, if you just take a few minutes and get it over with, you have ALL day to walk around withOUT the "horny" feeling. and who was hurt in the process? no one.

someone said imagine your best friends face if they saw you masturbating... now imagine Jesus with that same face. to that, i have this to say: imagine i'm married. me and my wife are getting it on, and my best friend walks in. i can see his face. now i will imagine Jesus with that same face. you know what i'd say to my friend? "DUDE!! busy here!!" the difference is, Jesus knows when you're "busy" and knows not to walk in on you... because He doesn't want to see it any more than you want to be seen. it's a private thing. and HE understands that, because He is human too. and, my best friend knows that i'm a "wanker" and i know he's a "wanker". we joke about it alot. but we don't ask if we can watch eathother. neither of us are ashamed of it. i'm not ashamed of the old yank. it's what i'm looking at or thinking about while i'm looking to knock it out of the park that will define my "shame". and to each his own because we are each our own.

the question is, how do you feel after your done? that is your answer. find a balance, and enjoy it. that's why we are here... to praise God and enjoy our lives... as well as our anatomy. you can't relate masturbating to sex... because having an orgasm does not define sex. a girl can have an orgasm just by wearing tight pants or whatever... doesn't mean she just had sex. boys and girls have wet dreams, which means they had an orgasm in their sleep... that doesn't constitute sex. having sex is a dangerous thing because it can defile your body. sharing yourself with someone other than your wife is defiling your body. sharing yourself with noone but yourself and a bottle of shampoo is not defiling your body. but, like i said, it can become addicting... so find a balance and don't hog the bathroom all the time. then you might start ticking off your parents.

 

[Lady in waiting]

lociking this thread.