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Miracles, do you believe?

If someone came to your church and told the congregation that God had healed them miraculously, woul

  • Believe them.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Want to see some evidence before you believed them.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not believe them because God doesn't do miracles now.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

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kwag_myers

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I'd like to get a general consensus. Thank you for taking this poll!
 
kwag_myers said:
I'd like to get a general consensus. Thank you for taking this poll!

If I can make an observation, I would submit to you that the 1st and 4th options (believe them/not believe them) do not represent arbitrarily valid opinions, but are, rather, demonstrably INCORRECT choices.

Simple logic dictates this....

Do you know why?
 
I learned miracles are a fact a few months ago when I nearly got into a car accident. Bascially there is no explanation for my escape from the situation, aside from God, because my car doesn't have anti-lock brakes. I should have rammed into the back of the stopped mini-van while going 70MPH, which probably would have killed me, but somehow I managed to steer away despite the angle being nearly impossible and my wheels being locked.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
kwag_myers said:
I'd like to get a general consensus. Thank you for taking this poll!

If I can make an observation, I would submit to you that the 1st and 4th options (believe them/not believe them) do not represent arbitrarily valid opinions, but are, rather, demonstrably INCORRECT choices.

Simple logic dictates this....

Do you know why?

Answer:

To choose the 4th option ("not believe them because God doesn't do miracles now") one must deny the theoretical POSSIBILITY that -

a) there is a God
b) if there is a God, he would be capable of superceeding the natural laws of nature if he so desired

How can someone say that possibility CANNOT be true? I feel they would have to be operating under an assumption.

Likewise, those who choose the 1st option (to simply "believe him") are operating under an assumption (and, in comparison to the 4th choice, I would say it is an even GREATER assumption) that is, that ANYONE who came with such a testimony is telling the truth or is not mistaken about their own experience. Since it would be a very simple matter for anyone to bring a false miraculous testimony, those who choose option 1, to just believe him with no other evidence, are NECESSARILY displaying a considerable amount of GULLIBILITY.

Now perhaps it can be said that there is no real penalty or negative repercussion for believing a false testimony of this type. That may be true, but I don't think that's the point. The point is we wouldn't buy a house from a real estate agent without visually (or otherwise) verifying that said house DID exist and WAS available. Why would we, without question, accept ANY miraculous claim anyone makes? If anything, I'd conjecture that there is a much greater chance of a miraculous testimony being something other than what it's claimed to be than the chance that a real estate office is going to try and sell you property that doesn't exist.

Because it would take a MIRACLE for a miracle to occur (sounds redundant, but think about it :wink:)
 
kwag_myers said:
I'd like to get a general consensus. Thank you for taking this poll!

Kwag,

This has nothing to do with our discussion or any potential dispute between us and I'm also not trying to insinuate that yours is not a good idea for a poll, but do you find it interesting that apparently 40 or so people have viewed this thread and only 3 of us have "voted", when, to merely vote doesn't require a viewer to make a post also?

Don't really have a point to make - just find it puzzling :roll:
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Answer:

To choose the 4th option ("not believe them because God doesn't do miracles now") one must deny the theoretical POSSIBILITY that -

a) there is a God
b) if there is a God, he would be capable of superceeding the natural laws of nature if he so desired
Actually you are wrong on both counts. To choose the fourth option is to assume that God has chosen to cease performing the miralculous. It has nothing to do with whether or not he exists or is capable of performing miracles.

BradtheImpaler said:
Since it would be a very simple matter for anyone to bring a false miraculous testimony, those who choose option 1, to just believe him with no other evidence, are NECESSARILY displaying a considerable amount of GULLIBILITY.
Not necessarily. It could simply be that they have no reason to not believe the person; that is, "innocent until proven guilty". Do you have any reason to immediately doubt someone's testimony of the miraculous other than your own presumptions?

BradtheImpaler said:
If anything, I'd conjecture that there is a much greater chance of a miraculous testimony being something other than what it's claimed to be than the chance that a real estate office is going to try and sell you property that doesn't exist.
Which is why you chose number 3. Jesus had a lot to say about a lack of faith and unbelief.

BradtheImpaler said:
but do you find it interesting that apparently 40 or so people have viewed this thread and only 3 of us have "voted", when, to merely vote doesn't require a viewer to make a post also?
You've checked at least 3 times, probably 5 times. I've checked close to 5 times and kwag at least 5 times. If only 8 people checked 5 times, that's 40 views. If only 3 of us have voted, that's still 38%, which is pretty good.
 
Free said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Answer:

To choose the 4th option ("not believe them because God doesn't do miracles now") one must deny the theoretical POSSIBILITY that -

a) there is a God
b) if there is a God, he would be capable of superceeding the natural laws of nature if he so desired

Actually you are wrong on both counts. To choose the fourth option is to assume that God has chosen to cease performing the miralculous. It has nothing to do with whether or not he exists or is capable of performing miracles.

Yes you're right - I read it for some reason without the "now", but the option remains the only one which assumes that miracles cannot happen, for whatever reason. So my reason for rejecting it remains the same - I don't think we can say a miracle CAN'T happen, because in order to say that we would have to believe that God didn't exist, or that He doesn't do miracles, or that he doesn't do miracles ANYMORE (now).

BradtheImpaler said:
Since it would be a very simple matter for anyone to bring a false miraculous testimony, those who choose option 1, to just believe him with no other evidence, are NECESSARILY displaying a considerable amount of GULLIBILITY.

[quote:fec87]Not necessarily. It could simply be that they have no reason to not believe the person; that is, "innocent until proven guilty". Do you have any reason to immediately doubt someone's testimony of the miraculous other than your own presumptions?

Absolutely. A miracle is, by definition, a usurption of the very laws of nature. If a man told me he went to Walmart's yesterday and bought toilet paper on sale, he might be lying, but I really wouldn't have a reason to doubt him. But if he told me that he stopped by the City Morgue on the way back, laid hands on a cadaver and it sat up, walked out of the Morgue and went home to his family - yeah, I want some evidence. I want to see the death certificate, I want to talk to the morgue employees that might have been present, I want to meet the guy's family, I want to see the (previously?) DEAD GUY. Is that so wrong or unusual? Or do you think I should just go tell everyone I know that this fellow raised someone from the dead and when they ask ME to prove it all I can tell them is he SAID he did?

BradtheImpaler said:
If anything, I'd conjecture that there is a much greater chance of a miraculous testimony being something other than what it's claimed to be than the chance that a real estate office is going to try and sell you property that doesn't exist.

Which is why you chose number 3. Jesus had a lot to say about a lack of faith and unbelief.

So what are you saying? That MOST reports of miracles are true? You're arguing here on a purely philosophic level. You know that I know that you would also doubt. If someone posted on this forum that they had literally WALKED ON WATER you're telling me that your honest reaction would be to believe him without equivocation?

BradtheImpaler said:
but do you find it interesting that apparently 40 or so people have viewed this thread and only 3 of us have "voted", when, to merely vote doesn't require a viewer to make a post also?

You've checked at least 3 times, probably 5 times. I've checked close to 5 times and kwag at least 5 times. If only 8 people checked 5 times, that's 40 views. If only 3 of us have voted, that's still 38%, which is pretty good.[/quote:fec87]

Maybe it's pretty good for this kind of thing - just seems like anyone who was interested enough to click on a thread title would just go ahead on click on one of the poll choices? Whatever.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
If I can make an observation, I would submit to you that the 1st and 4th options (believe them/not believe them) do not represent arbitrarily valid opinions, but are, rather, demonstrably INCORRECT choices.
I know that there are some who believe that we have come to the period in time when the gifts of the Holy Spirit, miracles, etc. have been do away with (1 Corinthians 13:8-10 I think). I was trying to be sensitive to those people. I really just want to know where the church as a whole stands on this issue.

I heard a report from South America where people who have died are brought to the church first. If it's not their time, they are raised up. If it is their time, they are then taken to the undertaker. Of course there's no way to verify it. I don't even know the name of the church, or what country that it's in.

There's also a prophetic word by Chris Chandler that says there is going to come an outpouring of miracles: http://www.globaloutpouring.com/RadiantChurch.html

A group of prophets that I meet with went over this and found it to be scripturally in line. So, there is a chance that we will see many miracles in the days ahead. Again, I just wanted to know if the collective church was ready for it or not. Not that it's my call or anything, I'm just curious.

Yes, this does have something to do with our discussion. If this were politics, I'd like to know how far to the left (as in left field) I am.
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
If I can make an observation, I would submit to you that the 1st and 4th options (believe them/not believe them) do not represent arbitrarily valid opinions, but are, rather, demonstrably INCORRECT choices.
I know that there are some who believe that we have come to the period in time when the gifts of the Holy Spirit, miracles, etc. have been do away with (1 Corinthians 13:8-10 I think). I was trying to be sensitive to those people. I really just want to know where the church as a whole stands on this issue.

I heard a report from South America where people who have died are brought to the church first. If it's not their time, they are raised up. If it is their time, they are then taken to the undertaker. Of course there's no way to verify it. I don't even know the name of the church, or what country that it's in.

There's also a prophetic word by Chris Chandler that says there is going to come an outpouring of miracles: http://www.globaloutpouring.com/RadiantChurch.html

A group of prophets that I meet with went over this and found it to be scripturally in line. So, there is a chance that we will see many miracles in the days ahead. Again, I just wanted to know if the collective church was ready for it or not. Not that it's my call or anything, I'm just curious.

Yes, this does have something to do with our discussion. If this were politics, I'd like to know how far to the left (as in left field) I am.

Kwag but we have heard these prophecies again and again. There was/is always someone among the Charismatics/Pentecostals (or now "neo-Charismatics") predicting a huge outpouring of miracles. I would think that a "huge outpouring" of miracles would be enough to prove skeptics wrong, so obviously it hasn't happened yet. If this is a legitimate prophecy, let him give a DATE that it will begin. To say something's "coming" is not a convincing prophecy, because it can't be proven wrong. It comes with it's own "escape clause" - i.e. - "well, it hasn't happened YET". This is an old fortune teller's technique, make open-ended predictions that are vague enough so they can't be held accountable if it doesn't happen.

Also what does it tell us if there is a prediction that an outpouring of miracles is COMING? That's it's not happening NOW, or it wouldn't be "coming". But to hear the same folks speak of signs and wonders in their midst, you'd think it was already an outpouring. The fact that they are looking FORWARD to this, is an indication that they really know that they don't "have it" yet.

Thirdly, I feel there is a very obvious psychological reason why predictions such as this are always coming from churches like these. It's just a very popular, exciting prophecy (if believed). Really, who would want to hear a prophecy that said a huge outpouring of miracles is NOT coming? Obviously no one among those groups that believe in miracles. This is what Charismatics (et.al.) WANT to hear and that is why there is ALWAYS some "prophecy" among them to this effect.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Kwag but we have heard these prophecies again and again. There was/is always someone among the Charismatics/Pentecostals (or now "neo-Charismatics") predicting a huge outpouring of miracles. I would think that a "huge outpouring" of miracles would be enough to prove skeptics wrong, so obviously it hasn't happened yet.
Here you go again. You asked for my reasons for this thread so that you can be overly critical of me. Here's where you say, "Oh, don't take it personally". It's difficult not to take it personally when your intensions are directed at me, personally. Example: 1 Timothy 2:15...
BradtheImpaler said:
kwag_myers said:
I addressed this in the other thread and got quite a flame-job in response. One thing that my accuser claims is that I take scripture out of context.

Who is your "accuser"?
Why do you need to know this? You went back nearly two months to find this thread just so that you could continue your criticism of me. You posting has nothing to do with 1 Timothy 2:15.
BradtheImpaler said:
If this is a legitimate prophecy, let him give a DATE that it will begin.
That is not how God's gift of prophecy works. Once again you have shown your ignorance of God's Word. However, since there is a forum for prophecy, I'm not going to get into that discussion. Also, prophecy is not the point of this poll.
BradtheImpaler said:
To say something's "coming" is not a convincing prophecy, because it can't be proven wrong. It comes with it's own "escape clause" - i.e. - "well, it hasn't happened YET". This is an old fortune teller's technique, make open-ended predictions that are vague enough so they can't be held accountable if it doesn't happen.
This is exactly why "common sense" doesn't work. We need the gift of discernment to know what is of God and what is fortune telling.
BradtheImpaler said:
Also what does it tell us if there is a prediction that an outpouring of miracles is COMING? That's it's not happening NOW, or it wouldn't be "coming". But to hear the same folks speak of signs and wonders in their midst, you'd think it was already an outpouring. The fact that they are looking FORWARD to this, is an indication that they really know that they don't "have it" yet.
All of God's outpourings have started small and grown rapidly. I tried to tell you about what is happening now in small groups, but you won't receive it. And when the rapid outpouring comes, I'll bet that you won't receive it then either.
BradtheImpaler said:
Thirdly, I feel there is a very obvious psychological reason why predictions such as this are always coming from churches like these. It's just a very popular, exciting prophecy (if believed). Really, who would want to hear a prophecy that said a huge outpouring of miracles is NOT coming? Obviously no one among those groups that believe in miracles. This is what Charismatics (et.al.) WANT to hear and that is why there is ALWAYS some "prophecy" among them to this effect.
Yeah, you're right. It's all just a plot to keep viewers tuned in. You go with that, take your critical, unbelieving attitude to the judgement seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7-10).
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Kwag but we have heard these prophecies again and again. There was/is always someone among the Charismatics/Pentecostals (or now "neo-Charismatics") predicting a huge outpouring of miracles. I would think that a "huge outpouring" of miracles would be enough to prove skeptics wrong, so obviously it hasn't happened yet.

Here you go again. You asked for my reasons for this thread so that you can be overly critical of me. Here's where you say, "Oh, don't take it personally". It's difficult not to take it personally when your intensions are directed at me, personally. Example: 1 Timothy 2:15...

BradtheImpaler said:
kwag_myers said:
I addressed this in the other thread and got quite a flame-job in response. One thing that my accuser claims is that I take scripture out of context.

Who is your "accuser"?

[quote:15101]Why do you need to know this? You went back nearly two months to find this thread just so that you could continue your criticism of me. You posting has nothing to do with 1 Timothy 2:15.

I'm not sure I "need" to know this, I was just curious. You're always assuming the most diabolical motives.

BradtheImpaler said:
If this is a legitimate prophecy, let him give a DATE that it will begin.

That is not how God's gift of prophecy works. Once again you have shown your ignorance of God's Word. However, since there is a forum for prophecy, I'm not going to get into that discussion. Also, prophecy is not the point of this poll

It's not the point of this poll but you just brought it up so I commented on it.

BradtheImpaler said:
To say something's "coming" is not a convincing prophecy, because it can't be proven wrong. It comes with it's own "escape clause" - i.e. - "well, it hasn't happened YET". This is an old fortune teller's technique, make open-ended predictions that are vague enough so they can't be held accountable if it doesn't happen.

This is exactly why "common sense" doesn't work. We need the gift of discernment to know what is of God and what is fortune telling

But WHO decides whose "gift of discernment" is correct? All I've been trying to point out in our discussion on all these threads is that everything you offer as objective evidence depends on something else that is SUBJECTIVE. I am trying to make you see that your whole perspective relies on circular reasoning.

BradtheImpaler said:
Also what does it tell us if there is a prediction that an outpouring of miracles is COMING? That's it's not happening NOW, or it wouldn't be "coming". But to hear the same folks speak of signs and wonders in their midst, you'd think it was already an outpouring. The fact that they are looking FORWARD to this, is an indication that they really know that they don't "have it" yet.

All of God's outpourings have started small and grown rapidly. I tried to tell you about what is happening now in small groups, but you won't receive it. And when the rapid outpouring comes, I'll bet that you won't receive it then either

Will we be allowed to investigate the miracles involved in this "rapid outpouring" when it comes or will we just have to take someone's word for it?

BradtheImpaler said:
Thirdly, I feel there is a very obvious psychological reason why predictions such as this are always coming from churches like these. It's just a very popular, exciting prophecy (if believed). Really, who would want to hear a prophecy that said a huge outpouring of miracles is NOT coming? Obviously no one among those groups that believe in miracles. This is what Charismatics (et.al.) WANT to hear and that is why there is ALWAYS some "prophecy" among them to this effect.

Yeah, you're right. It's all just a plot to keep viewers tuned in

You don't allow for "human nature". By nature, people tend to believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE, and often there is very little requirement for evidence attached to it. This is because they don't want to find out it's not true.

You go with that, take your critical, unbelieving attitude to the judgement seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7-10)
[/quote:15101]

Let's see....would that be the same as the "Judgement seat of KWAG_MYERS"? Guess so.

Kwag, your outrage over being challenged on your claims about yourself and your group speaks volumes. Religion (of any type) always seems to react with threats of reprisal (enlisting God as it's agent) when it is probed for evidence of it's convictions. All I am "guilty" of is not accepting everything you claim without evidence. The same way you evaluate and require evidence for things that you have to do with in what you would term the "secular world", I apply to the "religious world" also. I don't buy that deeming something "non - secular" lands it in a "safe zone" where all is ASSUMED and no proof is required. In other words, I don't see any line of demarcation between secular truth and religious truth - I believe there is ONLY "truth". If something is real, there will be evidence.

Now as to your poll, my point is exceedingly clear, and, I believe, incontrovertible. It is that anyone who chooses the 1st option (to believe them) is demonstrating that they are WILLFULLY capable of being deceived. Surely it would be a simple thing for someone to erroneously claim to have witnessed or been involved in a miracle. In fact, I'd say it happened pretty regularly, and I don't see how you could believe otherwise? Fine. Then if you think we should just believe ANYONE who claims a miracle without requiring evidence, we would HAVE to be deceived by SOME. (I would say by the LARGE MAJORITY of those claimants, but for argument's sake let's just say "some")

So your choice is that you can be deceived, my choice is that I want some evidence first. You can call me an unbeliever, but I'd rather be that than be DECEIVED.

Now please tell me why I am wrong about this :roll:
 
BradtheImpaler said:
I'm not sure I "need" to know this, I was just curious. You're always assuming the most diabolical motives.
And why would that be? My assumptions are based on your past behavior.

BradtheImpaler said:
But WHO decides whose "gift of discernment" is correct? All I've been trying to point out in our discussion on all these threads is that everything you offer as objective evidence depends on something else that is SUBJECTIVE. I am trying to make you see that your whole perspective relies on circular reasoning.
Discernment is subjective to the prophets. God brings unity through His Holy Spirit. You don't understand this because you rely on your human abilities and not on God's Spirit. It is not one person verses another. It is all people surrendering to God's Word, both written (logos 1 Timothy 6:3) and spoken (rhema Matthew 4:4).

BradtheImpaler said:
Will we be allowed to investigate the miracles involved in this "rapid outpouring" when it comes or will we just have to take someone's word for it?
Investigate all you want. You can be just like the Pharisees, always trying to prove that Jesus' miracles are of the devil. So far, you've shown me no difference to those who accused Jesus of using the devil's power to cast out demons.

BradtheImpaler said:
You don't allow for "human nature". By nature, people tend to believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE, and often there is very little requirement for evidence attached to it. This is because they don't want to find out it's not true.
Ask the Holy Spirit. How many times do I have to repeat what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit teaching us what is truth? You've either hardened your heart to God's Word, or you think yourself wiser than Jesus.

BradtheImpaler said:
Let's see....would that be the same as the "Judgement seat of KWAG_MYERS"? Guess so.
Could be, we're both relying on the same Spirit of Truth.

BradtheImpaler said:
Kwag, your outrage over being challenged on your claims about yourself and your group speaks volumes.
WRONG. My outrage is from your several attempts to hijack threads in order to attack me personally. And Free just lets it go.
BradtheImpaler said:
Religion (of any type) always seems to react with threats of reprisal (enlisting God as it's agent) when it is probed for evidence of it's convictions. All I am "guilty" of is not accepting everything you claim without evidence.
WRONG AGAIN. What you are guilty of is speaking against the Holy Spirit and persecuting His prophets.
BradtheImpaler said:
The same way you evaluate and require evidence for things that you have to do with in what you would term the "secular world", I apply to the "religious world" also. I don't buy that deeming something "non - secular" lands it in a "safe zone" where all is ASSUMED and no proof is required. In other words, I don't see any line of demarcation between secular truth and religious truth - I believe there is ONLY "truth". If something is real, there will be evidence.
Again you rely on your human ability. I rely on the Holy Spirit.
BradtheImpaler said:
Now as to your poll, my point is exceedingly clear, and, I believe, incontrovertible. It is that anyone who chooses the 1st option (to believe them) is demonstrating that they are WILLFULLY capable of being deceived. Surely it would be a simple thing for someone to erroneously claim to have witnessed or been involved in a miracle. In fact, I'd say it happened pretty regularly, and I don't see how you could believe otherwise? Fine. Then if you think we should just believe ANYONE who claims a miracle without requiring evidence, we would HAVE to be deceived by SOME. (I would say by the LARGE MAJORITY of those claimants, but for argument's sake let's just say "some")
You're just continuing to show your ignorance of the things of the Spirit. And I'm tried of explaining it to you because you choose not to receive it. I'm also tried of you hijacking my thread.
BradtheImpaler said:
So your choice is that you can be deceived, my choice is that I want some evidence first. You can call me an unbeliever, but I'd rather be that than be DECEIVED.

Now please tell me why I am wrong about this :roll:
You cannot show God's love without being vulnerable. The fact that you choose not to be vulnerable proves that you've hardened your heart to the things of the Spirit. And yes, you are definitely wrong to do that (Mark 16:14).
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
I'm not sure I "need" to know this, I was just curious. You're always assuming the most diabolical motives.

And why would that be? My assumptions are based on your past behavior

Which you previously judged in the flesh, not the Spirit. (see how easy it is? All I have to do is say I judge by the Spirit, or you judge by the flesh, and you're supposed to accept that)

BradtheImpaler said:
But WHO decides whose "gift of discernment" is correct? All I've been trying to point out in our discussion on all these threads is that everything you offer as objective evidence depends on something else that is SUBJECTIVE. I am trying to make you see that your whole perspective relies on circular reasoning.

[quote:54ca7]Discernment is subjective to the prophets

And who are the prophets? Apparently anyone who claims to be.

God brings unity through His Holy Spirit. You don't understand this because you rely on your human abilities and not on God's Spirit. It is not one person verses another. It is all people surrendering to God's Word, both written (logos 1 Timothy 6:3) and spoken (rhema Matthew 4:4)

Go to any Christian forum and you will find a bunch of people all claiming to have "surrendered to God's Word" - of course, these forums basically consist of debate, showing that the people who believe they have surrendered to God's word don't agree on large portions of it. Each person or group believes that they are following the Spirit. You are just another - I don't see any difference.

BradtheImpaler said:
Will we be allowed to investigate the miracles involved in this "rapid outpouring" when it comes or will we just have to take someone's word for it?

Investigate all you want. You can be just like the Pharisees, always trying to prove that Jesus' miracles are of the devil. So far, you've shown me no difference to those who accused Jesus of using the devil's power to cast out demons

I'm not attributing your miracles to the devil - I'm not convinced you HAVE miracles in the first place. Your comparison is invalid.

BradtheImpaler said:
You don't allow for "human nature". By nature, people tend to believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE, and often there is very little requirement for evidence attached to it. This is because they don't want to find out it's not true.

Ask the Holy Spirit. How many times do I have to repeat what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit teaching us what is truth? You've either hardened your heart to God's Word, or you think yourself wiser than Jesus

What if I, or anyone else, claimed to have asked the Holy Spirit about this and he told me you were a false prophet? Would you believe me? Well, why not? Your sole criteria for determining truth is what the Spirit "tells" us. That different people will claim the Spirit gave them conflicting messages doesn't seem to occur to you, but that is the NORM, if anything.

WHO determines who is listening to the Spirit and who is not in that case?

BradtheImpaler said:
Let's see....would that be the same as the "Judgement seat of KWAG_MYERS"? Guess so.

Could be, we're both relying on the same Spirit of Truth

Another presumptuous claim.

BradtheImpaler said:
Kwag, your outrage over being challenged on your claims about yourself and your group speaks volumes.

WRONG. My outrage is from your several attempts to hijack threads in order to attack me personally. And Free just lets it go

"Save me, Free! Brad is asking questions I can't answer!" :roll:

BradtheImpaler said:
Religion (of any type) always seems to react with threats of reprisal (enlisting God as it's agent) when it is probed for evidence of it's convictions. All I am "guilty" of is not accepting everything you claim without evidence.

WRONG AGAIN. What you are guilty of is speaking against the Holy Spirit and persecuting His prophets

OR...

I could be "guilty" of exposing those who claim to be prophets but are not.

(and, again, your claim of being "persecuted" is downright silly, and it should be apparent to everyone here how indicative this is of all your claims)

BradtheImpaler said:
The same way you evaluate and require evidence for things that you have to do with in what you would term the "secular world", I apply to the "religious world" also. I don't buy that deeming something "non - secular" lands it in a "safe zone" where all is ASSUMED and no proof is required. In other words, I don't see any line of demarcation between secular truth and religious truth - I believe there is ONLY "truth". If something is real, there will be evidence.

Again you rely on your human ability. I rely on the Holy Spirit

Another claim that cannot be substantiated. Did you notice that Darrell also claims to hear from the Spirit, and he says that demons cause bread mold. Should I believe that? Do you?

BradtheImpaler said:
Now as to your poll, my point is exceedingly clear, and, I believe, incontrovertible. It is that anyone who chooses the 1st option (to believe them) is demonstrating that they are WILLFULLY capable of being deceived. Surely it would be a simple thing for someone to erroneously claim to have witnessed or been involved in a miracle. In fact, I'd say it happened pretty regularly, and I don't see how you could believe otherwise? Fine. Then if you think we should just believe ANYONE who claims a miracle without requiring evidence, we would HAVE to be deceived by SOME. (I would say by the LARGE MAJORITY of those claimants, but for argument's sake let's just say "some")

You're just continuing to show your ignorance of the things of the Spirit. And I'm tried of explaining it to you because you choose not to receive it. I'm also tried of you hijacking my thread.

You HAVEN'T explained it. By your rule of thumb, we would have no defense against deception, because we are to believe anyone who makes any claim, as long as they say they are a Christian and that "this really happened". Anyone following this logic is an incredibly easy "mark" for any prankster or hoax.

BradtheImpaler said:
So your choice is that you can be deceived, my choice is that I want some evidence first. You can call me an unbeliever, but I'd rather be that than be DECEIVED. Now please tell me why I am wrong about this :roll:

You cannot show God's love without being vulnerable. The fact that you choose not to be vulnerable proves that you've hardened your heart to the things of the Spirit. And yes, you are definitely wrong to do that (Mark 16:14).
[/quote:54ca7]

Apparently "vulnerable" is a euphomism for "gullible"?

And as for your scripture reference, YOU'RE not Jesus and YOU haven't provided proof of previous miracles (on the level of feeding 5000 from a "sack lunch") that I should believe whatever additional miraculous claim someone else may make about you.

When will you realize how pretentious it is for you to expect others to just assume that your opinion is not just yours but God's, and that disagreeing with you is disagreeing with God, and that doubting anything you say is like the disciples doubting whether Christ rose from the dead? You threaten ME with God's judgement, (another incredible presumption) but it never occurs to you how God may react to those who claim to be his prophets and speak in his sted IF THEY ARE REALLY DON'T.

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran; I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" (Jer.23:21)
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Which you previously judged in the flesh, not the Spirit. (see how easy it is? All I have to do is say I judge by the Spirit, or you judge by the flesh, and you're supposed to accept that)
I guess if I keep this up my poll will stay at the top of the list. I'm reminded of Acts 16:17-18 where Paul was grieved because this woman wouldn't shut up.

Okay, I'll use your tactic: Prove that I judged in the flesh and not by the Spirit.

BradtheImpaler said:
But WHO decides whose "gift of discernment" is correct?
That would be God. Then, He tells His prophets and they proclaim His judgement. Again I repeat (hoping that you will listen this time), the Spirit brings unity. When we are truly discerning by the Spirit of God, we are in agreement. Again I repeat (knowing that you are too proud to receive this) that you don't understand the things of the Spirit because...Romans 8:5.
BradtheImpaler said:
All I've been trying to point out in our discussion on all these threads is that everything you offer as objective evidence depends on something else that is SUBJECTIVE. I am trying to make you see that your whole perspective relies on circular reasoning.
And I am trying to tell you the importance of being filled with the Spirit. But you choose to argue the point instead of receiving the wonderful gift that God has for you.
BradtheImpaler said:
And who are the prophets? Apparently anyone who claims to be.
Or perhaps those who fulfill the guidelines in scripture for determining a prophet. And if you want to know what they are, go to the Bible Prophecy forum.
BradtheImpaler said:
Go to any Christian forum and you will find a bunch of people all claiming to have "surrendered to God's Word" - of course, these forums basically consist of debate, showing that the people who believe they have surrendered to God's word don't agree on large portions of it. Each person or group believes that they are following the Spirit. You are just another - I don't see any difference.
You are so caught up in what other people do. Don't you care about what God is doing in these days? I used to be like you, aways criticizing others, full of pride. Then, like Paul, God knocked me off my horse. I tell you this so that you'll know it if/when it comes.

BradtheImpaler said:
I'm not attributing your miracles to the devil - I'm not convinced you HAVE miracles in the first place. Your comparison is invalid.
See my thread on unbelief.
BradtheImpaler said:
What if I, or anyone else, claimed to have asked the Holy Spirit about this and he told me you were a false prophet? Would you believe me? Well, why not? Your sole criteria for determining truth is what the Spirit "tells" us. That different people will claim the Spirit gave them conflicting messages doesn't seem to occur to you, but that is the NORM, if anything.

WHO determines who is listening to the Spirit and who is not in that case?
Brad, we've gone over this so many times that I've lost count. A true prophet meets all the criteria set forth in the Bible, always proclaims that Jesus is the one and only Christ, and is always in agreement with other prophets of God. If I proclaim something that is not in scripture (as you have with your common sense doctrine), or if I proclaim something that conflicts with what other prophets are speaking, or if I proclaim that there is another way to be saved other that Jesus, etc. I may be a false prophet. Prove it!

BradtheImpaler said:
Let's see....would that be the same as the "Judgement seat of KWAG_MYERS"? Guess so.

Could be, we're both relying on the same Spirit of Truth

Another presumptuous claim.[/quote]
Not presumption, unity in the Spirit.

BradtheImpaler said:
"Save me, Free! Brad is asking questions I can't answer!" :roll:
Again with the mocking, you're so good at showing God's love. It's more like "Save me, Free! Brad is asking questions that I have answered over and over and over and over again. He just doesn't listen."

BradtheImpaler said:
Religion (of any type) always seems to react with threats of reprisal (enlisting God as it's agent) when it is probed for evidence of it's convictions. All I am "guilty" of is not accepting everything you claim without evidence.

WRONG AGAIN. What you are guilty of is speaking against the Holy Spirit and persecuting His prophets

OR...

I could be "guilty" of exposing those who claim to be prophets but are not. [/quote]
You could be. But you haven't proven it yet. Come on Brad, practice what you preach. Prove it.

BradtheImpaler said:
(and, again, your claim of being "persecuted" is downright silly, and it should be apparent to everyone here how indicative this is of all your claims)
More of God's love flowing from the ever so humble BradtheImpaler. Oh, aren't we blessed?

BradtheImpaler said:
Another claim that cannot be substantiated. Did you notice that Darrell also claims to hear from the Spirit, and he says that demons cause bread mold. Should I believe that? Do you?
I can certainly see how Darrell could come to this conclusion. All death and decay are caused by the devil, therefore...Personally, I'm more concerned with how demons affect humans, but I cannot dispute what Darrell is saying.

BradtheImpaler said:
You're just continuing to show your ignorance of the things of the Spirit. And I'm tried of explaining it to you because you choose not to receive it. I'm also tried of you hijacking my thread.

You HAVEN'T explained it. By your rule of thumb, we would have no defense against deception, because we are to believe anyone who makes any claim, as long as they say they are a Christian and that "this really happened". Anyone following this logic is an incredibly easy "mark" for any prankster or hoax.
Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit.

BradtheImpaler said:
Apparently "vulnerable" is a euphomism for "gullible"?
Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit.

BradtheImpaler said:
And as for your scripture reference, YOU'RE not Jesus and YOU haven't provided proof of previous miracles (on the level of feeding 5000 from a "sack lunch") that I should believe whatever additional miraculous claim someone else may make about you.
Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit.

As for me not being Jesus, He said that we would do mightier things than He, did He not? And John says that we will be like Him (1 John 3:2).
BradtheImpaler said:
When will you realize how pretentious it is for you to expect others to just assume that your opinion is not just yours but God's, and that disagreeing with you is disagreeing with God, and that doubting anything you say is like the disciples doubting whether Christ rose from the dead? You threaten ME with God's judgement, (another incredible presumption) but it never occurs to you how God may react to those who claim to be his prophets and speak in his sted IF THEY ARE REALLY DON'T.

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran; I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" (Jer.23:21)
Wow, a scriptural reference. I am proud of you. However, you still don't understand that the Spirit brings unity.
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Which you previously judged in the flesh, not the Spirit. (see how easy it is? All I have to do is say I judge by the Spirit, or you judge by the flesh, and you're supposed to accept that)

I guess if I keep this up my poll will stay at the top of the list. I'm reminded of Acts 16:17-18 where Paul was grieved because this woman wouldn't shut up

Why? Because you think I'm demon-possessed and you are the "servant of the most high God"? Now you compare yourself to Paul also.

[quote:9ed52]Okay, I'll use your tactic: Prove that I judged in the flesh and not by the Spirit

I can't. Thank you for likewise demonstrating that your entire premise - that you judge according to the Spirit - CANNOT BE PROVEN.

BradtheImpaler said:
But WHO decides whose "gift of discernment" is correct?

That would be God. Then, He tells His prophets and they proclaim His judgement

They should have YOUR PICTURE next to this definition -

CIRCULARITY: Reasoning that improperly assumes the truth of what is at issue. A circular argument implicitly employs it's own conclusion as a premise (http://www.philosophypages.com)

Again I repeat (hoping that you will listen this time), the Spirit brings unity. When we are truly discerning by the Spirit of God, we are in agreement.

I listened the first time - repetition of your answer hasn't enabled it to make sense this time either. You know who truly has the gift of discernment because they AGREE? So, ATHEISTS have the gift of discernment because THEY agree? The Body of Christ (in general) DOESN'T have the gift of discernment because they DON'T agree about many things? What are you saying? (I think what you're getting at is if someone has true discernment they will be in agreement with you and your particular group)

Again I repeat (knowing that you are too proud to receive this) that you don't understand the things of the Spirit because...Romans 8:5

What am I "too proud" of? YOU'RE the one claiming to be something special.

BradtheImpaler said:
All I've been trying to point out in our discussion on all these threads is that everything you offer as objective evidence depends on something else that is SUBJECTIVE. I am trying to make you see that your whole perspective relies on circular reasoning.
And I am trying to tell you the importance of being filled with the Spirit. But you choose to argue the point instead of receiving the wonderful gift that God has for you.
BradtheImpaler said:
And who are the prophets? Apparently anyone who claims to be.

Or perhaps those who fulfill the guidelines in scripture for determining a prophet. And if you want to know what they are, go to the Bible Prophecy forum

I'll check it out then.

BradtheImpaler said:
Go to any Christian forum and you will find a bunch of people all claiming to have "surrendered to God's Word" - of course, these forums basically consist of debate, showing that the people who believe they have surrendered to God's word don't agree on large portions of it. Each person or group believes that they are following the Spirit. You are just another - I don't see any difference.

You are so caught up in what other people do. Don't you care about what God is doing in these days? I used to be like you, aways criticizing others, full of pride. Then, like Paul, God knocked me off my horse. I tell you this so that you'll know it if/when it comes

Yes - we know you're just like Paul, that came up earlier.

BradtheImpaler said:
I'm not attributing your miracles to the devil - I'm not convinced you HAVE miracles in the first place. Your comparison is invalid.

See my thread on unbelief

Saw it....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"snoozer" :wink:

BradtheImpaler said:
What if I, or anyone else, claimed to have asked the Holy Spirit about this and he told me you were a false prophet? Would you believe me? Well, why not? Your sole criteria for determining truth is what the Spirit "tells" us. That different people will claim the Spirit gave them conflicting messages doesn't seem to occur to you, but that is the NORM, if anything.

WHO determines who is listening to the Spirit and who is not in that case?

Brad, we've gone over this so many times that I've lost count. A true prophet meets all the criteria set forth in the Bible, always proclaims that Jesus is the one and only Christ, and is always in agreement with other prophets of God. If I proclaim something that is not in scripture (as you have with your common sense doctrine), or if I proclaim something that conflicts with what other prophets are speaking, or if I proclaim that there is another way to be saved other that Jesus, etc. I may be a false prophet. Prove it!

ALL Christians would proclaim Jesus is the "one and only Christ" and that there is no other way of salvation - and whether one proclaims something is not in scripture may be subjective because it has to do with interpretation. (So far, ANYONE who claims to be a Christian can label himself a prophet) What seems to be the distinguishing feature, is that a prophet must agree with all the other prophets to be a true prophet?

(Please excuse my "raising my voice" here, it's not in anger but a plead for sanity...)

AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE OTHER PROPHETS ARE TRULY PROPHETS? (Because they agree with YOU?)

Your reasoning is so BLATANTLY "circular" that I'm getting motion sickness just listening to you!

BradtheImpaler said:
Let's see....would that be the same as the "Judgement seat of KWAG_MYERS"? Guess so.

Could be, we're both relying on the same Spirit of Truth

Another presumptuous claim.[/quote:9ed52]

Not presumption, unity in the Spirit

PROVE you are relying on the same Spirit of truth as Jesus - otherwise it's just a presumptuous claim.

BradtheImpaler said:
"Save me, Free! Brad is asking questions I can't answer!" :roll:

Again with the mocking, you're so good at showing God's love

I don't claim to always display God's love - is this something ELSE you claim about yourself?

It's more like "Save me, Free! Brad is asking questions that I have answered over and over and over and over again. He just doesn't listen."

I listen well enough to be able to point out the lack of substance in your answers.

BradtheImpaler said:
Religion (of any type) always seems to react with threats of reprisal (enlisting God as it's agent) when it is probed for evidence of it's convictions. All I am "guilty" of is not accepting everything you claim without evidence.

WRONG AGAIN. What you are guilty of is speaking against the Holy Spirit and persecuting His prophets

OR...

I could be "guilty" of exposing those who claim to be prophets but are not. [/quote]

You could be. But you haven't proven it yet. Come on Brad, practice what you preach. Prove it.

I don't have to prove anything - YOU are the one with the burden of proof, i.e. -

that you are a prophet...

that your fellowship is "God's new thing"...

that you see miracles everyday...

I am only RESPONDING to your claims, therefore I have nothing to prove.

BradtheImpaler said:
(and, again, your claim of being "persecuted" is downright silly, and it should be apparent to everyone here how indicative this is of all your claims)

More of God's love flowing from the ever so humble BradtheImpaler. Oh, aren't we blessed?

Oh, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about the claim of being a martyr also :wink:

BradtheImpaler said:
Another claim that cannot be substantiated. Did you notice that Darrell also claims to hear from the Spirit, and he says that demons cause bread mold. Should I believe that? Do you?

I can certainly see how Darrell could come to this conclusion. All death and decay are caused by the devil, therefore...Personally, I'm more concerned with how demons affect humans, but I cannot dispute what Darrell is saying.

So then if you are on the verge of agreeing with Darrel that demons cause bread mold, that would constitute a "unity" of agreement, and therefore both of you qualify as prophets, and this would supply all the evidence necessary that it was SATAN (or some of his imps) that crept into my pantry last week and sabotaged the Jewish Rye?

You're just continuing to show your ignorance of the things of the Spirit. And I'm tried of explaining it to you because you choose not to receive it. I'm also tried of you hijacking my thread.

BradtheImpaler said:
You HAVEN'T explained it. By your rule of thumb, we would have no defense against deception, because we are to believe anyone who makes any claim, as long as they say they are a Christian and that "this really happened". Anyone following this logic is an incredibly easy "mark" for any prankster or hoax.

Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit.

Let's try again....

I am not rejecting the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning truth - I am asking you how I can be sure YOU are hearing from the Holy Spirit? ANYONE can make that claim.

BradtheImpaler said:
Apparently "vulnerable" is a euphomism for "gullible"?

Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit

It's not a "thing of the Spirit", but a truth of words - you substituted the word "vulnerable" for what obviously would be "gullibility". Gullibility is when you believe anything anyone says with no proof.

BradtheImpaler said:
And as for your scripture reference, YOU'RE not Jesus and YOU haven't provided proof of previous miracles (on the level of feeding 5000 from a "sack lunch") that I should believe whatever additional miraculous claim someone else may make about you.

Again you reject the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth. You do not understand the things of the Spirit

Your "needle" seems to be stuck. Not only are you out of answers, but it would seen you are also now out of excuses.

As for me not being Jesus, He said that we would do mightier things than He, did He not? And John says that we will be like Him (1 John 3:2).

You see this is the whole issue in a nutshell - you look at the verse (Jesus said we would do mightier theings than he) and say -

"well, since I am a believer, I MUST be doing mightier things than Jesus"

...while I look at that verse and say...

Since you are obviously NOT doing "mightier things than Jesus", then you are NOT that, or those "things" have ceased, or something else is out of whack with this scripture.

I judge by reality - you INTERPRET reality by a pre-conception.

BradtheImpaler said:
When will you realize how pretentious it is for you to expect others to just assume that your opinion is not just yours but God's, and that disagreeing with you is disagreeing with God, and that doubting anything you say is like the disciples doubting whether Christ rose from the dead? You threaten ME with God's judgement, (another incredible presumption) but it never occurs to you how God may react to those who claim to be his prophets and speak in his sted IF THEY ARE REALLY DON'T.

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran; I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" (Jer.23:21)

Wow, a scriptural reference. I am proud of you

Here's another good one...

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer.23:16)

However, you still don't understand that the Spirit brings unity

What Spirit brought "unity" among the prophets that these verses are about? These prophets had unity didn't they? Does that mean they were hearing from the Holy Spirit? According to your understanding they must have been.

Your appeal then to "unity" as evidence that people are hearing from the correct Spirit is demonstrably FALSE.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Why? Because you think I'm demon-possessed and you are the "servant of the most high God"? Now you compare yourself to Paul also.
I what way? I simply said that I am reminded of Paul. How does that translate into a comparison between him and me?

As for your being "demon-possessed", I think you need to look at the evidence. How many people in this forum have told you that you lack faith and/or are full of unbelief? You are one voice proclaiming a doctrine that goes against scripture (trusting in the flesh).

This is a doctrine of good works (dead works). We have to rely on our selves, our feeble human abilities to determine the truth. In comparison, the Bible teaches us to trust in the Holy Spirit, taking that burden off of us.
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Why? Because you think I'm demon-possessed and you are the "servant of the most high God"? Now you compare yourself to Paul also.

I what way? I simply said that I am reminded of Paul. How does that translate into a comparison between him and me?

Sorry, I apologize for thinking you were comparing yourself to Paul and me to the possessed woman.

[quote:bb0b2]As for your being "demon-possessed" I think you need to look at the evidence

oops...hold the phone, it seems you ARE comparing me to the woman. (Can I take back my apology for thinking you were also comparing yourself to Paul?)

And, is this Kwag_Myers making an appeal to EVIDENCE?

How many people in this forum have told you that you lack faith and/or are full of unbelief? You are one voice proclaiming a doctrine that goes against scripture (trusting in the flesh)

Oh, THAT kind of evidence, which is only "opinion". If you were to post on an Islamic or Atheistic forum I could also appeal to the "evidence" that most people on those forums would think YOU were heretical or nuts or whatever. This would not be evidence - it is only popular opinion within a specific belief system's environment.

Besides - we could probably find almost as many opinions from Christians on this forum that miracles don't happen anymore and that you are not a prophet cause that doesn't go on anymore etc. So according to your rule of thumb, many believers are also guilty of unbelief and, in keeping with your insinuation, possibly DEMON-POSSESSED also?

This is a doctrine of good works (dead works). We have to rely on our selves, our feeble human abilities to determine the truth. In comparison, the Bible teaches us to trust in the Holy Spirit, taking that burden off of us.
[/quote:bb0b2]

How do we know you're not "relying on your feeble human ability to determine truth" and just BELIEVING that you're hearing from the Holy Spirit? We always come back to this and you have no evidence - just the opinions of other "prophets" who agree with you.

:evil: What have you to do with me, Kwag_Myers, thou prophet of the living God? Have you come to torment me before my time? Send us, I pray thee, into those 2000 forum "lurkers" who never post! :evil:

(And Kwag_Myers cast the "Legion" into the 2000 forum lurkers who dashed off a cliff when their computers crashed) :wink:
 
There's also a prophetic word by Chris Chandler that says there is going to come an outpouring of miracles: http://www.globaloutpouring.com/RadiantChurch.html

"We first need to realize that in heaven God has a storehouse that is like a bank (Deut.28:12) We need to also realize that we can have an account in that bank. Once we do that, we can begin to develop our faith in this area of our lives. The first step is to open a heavenly bank account. TO DO THIS WE MUST BE TITHERS" (Chris Chandler)

False prophet :evil:
 
There's also a prophetic word by Chris Chandler that says there is going to come an outpouring of miracles: http://www.globaloutpouring.com/RadiantChurch.html

A group of prophets that I meet with went over this and found it to be scripturally in line. So, there is a chance that we will see many miracles in the days ahead

"On the last night of the crusade, we saw an amazing sign and wonder that has never before happened on our meetings. Gold and silver dust appearing on people!" (http://www.globaloutpouring.com/RFC2000)

Ah yes, the "fake gold dust" manifestation that has swept the Charismatic movement. Samples of this stuff taken from "miracle meetings" has been analyzed many times and found to be "plastic glitter". It is disseminated very easily through the air and/or by touch. This is a very cheap parlor trick and any amateur magician would tell us so.
 
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