Mistakes resulted in 238,337 preventable deaths :2004-2006

[Works4Him]

Nice, resorting to personal attacks when losing your side of the debate. I'd be upset if I didn't find it so amusing.

For the record, I believe God hears our prayers and answers all of them. I think a "few prayers" can change a life. But at the same time, sometimes the answer to a prayer is to get off your butt and take your Kid to see the doctor. God is under no obligation to answer our every prayer with a miracle. In the story you cite, God obviously didn't answer the prayers with a miracle, so unless you think God wanted this child to die a slow painful death from a highly treatable illness, it's possible God wanted these people to GO TO THE DOCTOR.

Just a thought.

Peace!

 

[Cornelius]

No, what's interesting is the editing you have done to the quote.

You said "Amen" to the whole post, so I assumed that the part of the Christians being stupid was part of your OK. Forgive me if I am wrong .

 

[Cornelius]

Nice, resorting to personal attacks when losing your side of the debate. I'd be upset if I didn't find it so amusing.

For the record, I believe God hears our prayers and answers all of them. I think a "few prayers" can change a life. But at the same time, sometimes the answer to a prayer is to get off your butt and take your Kid to see the doctor. God is under no obligation to answer our every prayer with a miracle. In the story you cite, God obviously didn't answer the prayers with a miracle, so unless you think God wanted this child to die a slow painful death from a highly treatable illness, it's possible God wanted these people to GO TO THE DOCTOR.

Just a thought.

Peace!

I did not realize we were in a debate and that I have lost. I really find it interesting how Christians view faith and prayer. Kind of like a side dish, something to help a little. A backup plan when the world starts failing them. Kind of like a recipe for success in case God fails them.

If God says "No" to the healing, well......then we can still get out of it, because there is always the doctor that WILL help us ,even if God do not.

You must admit that is how we think.

C

 

[Works4Him]

Actually, I think we are to pray without ceasing, and because doing so would require us to pray while doing other things, sometimes action is required along with prayer.

I assumed that people discussing differing views was the very definition of a debate. If that's not what this is, I suppose you were just waging personal attacks at Gabe and I for fun then?

Let me ask you this: If your child had been getting progressively sicker and sicker over days or weeks' time, and had slipped into a coma, would you pray while you just sit there, or would you pray while calling 911 and getting the kid to a doctor?

Noplace in scripture do I see that we are supposed to distrust doctors. Again, God lets doctors write His Holy Scripture. The beliefs of these people have nothing to do with real Christianity. At best, their church is part of sect, at worst I'd call them a cult. Yes, God CAN cure people, but sometimes God cures people through the hands of the doctors He created to treat the ill.

 

[Works4Him]

No, what's interesting is the editing you have done to the quote.

You said "Amen" to the whole post, so I assumed that the part of the Christians being stupid was part of your OK. Forgive me if I am wrong .

Did I call them Christians? Personally, someone who lets their child die of diabetes while they ignore all the avenues of medical treatment that God has laid out is hardly someone I regard as a "Little Christ"

 

[Cornelius]

No, what's interesting is the editing you have done to the quote.

You said "Amen" to the whole post, so I assumed that the part of the Christians being stupid was part of your OK. Forgive me if I am wrong .

Did I call them Christians? Personally, someone who lets their child die of diabetes while they ignore all the avenues of medical treatment that God has laid out is hardly someone I regard as a "Little Christ"

Oh, I see, you have not read the link.

 

[Works4Him]

I'm sure I read it at least as closely as you read my first post in this thread. Have you given up getting in vehicles yet?

Do you think it's fair to call this trial unfair, when the defense decided on their own not to call any witnesses?

Nobody's prosecuting the parents for praying. Praying is fine, but sometimes prayer should be accompanied by action.

Again I ask, If your child had been getting progressively sicker and sicker over days (or possibly weeks) time, and had slipped into a coma, would you pray while you just sat there, or would you pray while calling 911 and getting the kid to a hospital?

Would you call someone who ignored the avenues of Medical care God has placed in front of them and let their child die a "little Christ"?

 

[Gabe]

No, what's interesting is the editing you have done to the quote.

You said "Amen" to the whole post, so I assumed that the part of the Christians being stupid was part of your OK. Forgive me if I am wrong .

There isn't really much left for me to add since Works4Him has already answered, and I agree with his opinions on this subject. especially this:

Nobody's prosecuting the parents for praying. Praying is fine, but sometimes prayer should be accompanied by action.

When you cross the road, do you stop and look before you cross or do you simply pray that that the double-decker bus coming your way will miss you? I trust in God, but I don't test Him. He's given us common sense for a reason and I'm not about to ignore mine.

 

[Cornelius]

Actually, I think we are to pray without ceasing, and because doing so would require us to pray while doing other things, sometimes action is required along with prayer.

I assumed that people discussing differing views was the very definition of a debate. If that's not what this is, I suppose you were just waging personal attacks at Gabe and I for fun then?

Well it seems that you think because many agree with you, that you are winning Jesus was not in the majority and did not win the popularity vote. Many, does not = right.

Let me ask you this: If your child had been getting progressively sicker and sicker over days or weeks' time, and had slipped into a coma, would you pray while you just sit there, or would you pray while calling 911 and getting the kid to a doctor?

It would depend on my faith. If I believed that God healed her, I would not go to the doctor, and if I did not believe it, I would go. I do not have a predetermined action, it depends on my faith.

Noplace in scripture do I see that we are supposed to distrust doctors.

No place in Scripture does it say we have to trust them, but we have plenty of scriptures that tell us we must not trust the arm of the flesh (what do you think that would be ?) and to trust God alone.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith Jehovah: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man,(would you say that a doctor could be called "a man" ?) and maketh flesh (The flesh is this man, that is mentioned in the first part of this scripture) his arm,("arm" is what moves the "hand" that determines the action ) and whose heart departeth from Jehovah. (his heart here departs from God to the man, mentioned here )


So this is rather a strong case that God would prefer for us to learn how to move in faith and not make man our salvation.

Again, God lets doctors write His Holy Scripture.

God also allowed a tax collector to write the Scripture. I am not against doctors, many people have been helped by them, but there is a better way called faith. I am against just sitting down and never going forward in faith, because "things are the way they are and will always be so" That is not true.

Jesus never mentioned doctors , neither did He once combine a doctor with His faith. We are suppose to learn how to walk like Him.

The beliefs of these people have nothing to do with real Christianity. At best, their church is part of sect, at worst I'd call them a cult. Yes, God CAN cure people, but sometimes God cures people through the hands of the doctors He created to treat the ill.

God cures people through the hands of a doctor because He is great in compassion and mercy, not because He has ever needed them. He is not lazy , so He never thinks: "Oh, I guess I do not feel like using my power today, so let the doctor heal them."
No , Jesus always said:Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it done unto you.

According to THEIR FAITH, not His.

 

[Cornelius]

Noplace in scripture do I see that we are supposed to distrust doctors. Again, God lets doctors write His Holy Scripture. The beliefs of these people have nothing to do with real Christianity. At best, their church is part of sect, at worst I'd call them a cult. Yes, God CAN cure people, but sometimes God cures people through the hands of the doctors He created to treat the ill.

No place in Scripture are we told to trust them either. But I have a strong scripture that will show that we are not to place our trust in any man. This would include doctors.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith Jehovah: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from Jehovah.

Making "flesh" your arm is to replace God with a man.

God in His mercy help people still through doctors, . I have good friends who are doctors. But doctors do not come as a package deal with our faith. God never tells us to have a backup plan with our faith. Jesus never called Luke and told him to "follow up".

We are also not told to judge our brothers and sisters when they walk in faith.

 

[Cornelius]

We either believe God is sovereign or we do not. There are only these two options.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

HEAVENLY CHILD

I learned to read when I was four years old, that’s when my sister came into the world. She was so beautiful, and she… still is. Her name was from God, Beloved, Kara my beloved. She was always thinking of another other than herself. She loved her family, she was happy, and she smiled all the time. Eleven years were given to her, she used them wisely learning about God and all that He does through the good and the bad. Everywhere she went she was loved, and she still is. You couldn’t take her spirit from her, she was so headstrong, and her spirit lives on. She loved to laugh and hated to make a mistake. She loved to draw people and coffee shops. Hanging out with her friends was another favorite pass time she loved. She was a heavenly child… and she still is.

~Ariel Neumann, age 14 (Kara’s sister)

 

[GojuBrian]

Cornelius,

I find it very hard to believe that you would not take your child to the doctor if they became very ill.

I also find it very dishonest of you to portray the scriptures in such a way that makes it seem we either have to choose God or doctors. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

If you do what these people did and deny your child medical care...may God have mercy on your soul, because if I'm on the jury, I won't.

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius,

I find it very hard to believe that you would not take your child to the doctor if they became very ill.

I also find it very dishonest of you to portray the scriptures in such a way that makes it seem we either have to choose God or doctors. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

If you do what these people did and deny your child medical care...may God have mercy on your soul, because if I'm on the jury, I won't.

I said: I will not take my child to the doctor if I had faith that God has healed her/him. If I do not have the faith, then I obviously will take the child. There is a difference .

I know many Christians who live without doctors. I know many Christians who do not go to doctors and have been healed of cancer (just two of my close friends in the past year and another more distant friend, this past month) Good friends have just had their baby at home a month ago. Another friend has had all three children at home, two of which were breached babies. They prayed, went to make tea, came back and the children were pink and healthy. This same couple's child broke his arm at 5 years old and they prayed for him and sent him to play. The next morning my friend picked him up by his broken arm and threw him into the air. God healed the arm perfectly. No doctor. God has healed a friend of diabetes.He has healed me of high blood pressure, (I first threw my pills away). The doctors were going to amputate the toe of my friends mother and we prayed. She kept her toe. My other friends migraines went away after suffering since childhood. Doctor's gave pills, but it never took it away.

A son of a friend was in an accident. Brain damage and they took him out of the hospital. Doctors warned he will die and if he went home , they had to sign a document., They did. They were told not to feed him anything , because it was dangerous. On the way home the boy said he was hungry for a burger. The bought a burger. Next day , he was better and the day after had no sign left of the accident.

I can go on and on and on about how people with faith are experiencing the power of God in their lives every day. God has even healed water pipes in my house after prayer. He fixed the aircon of another friend, fix the car of another and put gas into an empty tank a few times for another.

I see it, I live it. God is still the same God that took Israel through the desert.

WE have changed, He is still the same.

C

 

[GojuBrian]

I know many Christians who live without doctors. I know many Christians who do not go to doctors and have been healed of cancer (just two of my close friends in the past year and another more distant friend, this past month) Good friends have just had their baby at home a month ago

How were they diagnosed with cancer if they live without doctors?

 

[Works4Him]

I said: I will not take my child to the doctor if I had faith that God has healed her/him.

That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. Even you, who staunchly supports these terrible parents, would still take your child to a doctor if the child was not recovering!And yet, when this child got sicker and sicker, and then eventually slipped into a coma, these parents didn't do that. They just kept sitting on their butts hoping God would make up for their lack of brains.

You posted a lot of verses, and most of them were either pulled out of context or misapplied. For example you posted Jer 17:5, which I'll post in a more modern translation of for those who don't speak 19th century English:

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD.

First off, in this passage God isn't upset because they had doctors and other forms of caregivers. The Lord is speaking through Jeremiah, giving a message to Judah, because they had turned away from God completely. They had forgotten God, weren't praying to him at all, ignoring his commandments. Essentially, they had turned their backs on God, and this is why the Lord was upset.

It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous, to liken taking your child to the doctor to be tantamount to what God is saying in this passage. You can go see the Doctor without turning your heart away from God. Whenever I go to see my doctor, I'm actually practicing my faith in God, because I'm trusting God to have given my doctor the wisdom and knowledge to diagnose the problem. It's not an either/or situation here. Someone with a shard of wisdom would realize that you can fully trust in God and realize that He has placed people here on Earth to help us.

In attempt to counter my observation that the Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by a Doctor, you pointed out that Matthew was a tax collector. While you are in part right, you seemingly ignored Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:28, where Matthew quit collecting taxes to follow Christ. If Matthew hadn't left his career collecting taxes, he wouldn't wave written or edited the first Gospel. Most historians however believe that Luke was still practicing medicine throughout his life.

You also listed a number of miracles that you have seen through prayer. Great! I'm not saying that God doesn't do miracles. I've seen people healed by prayer myself. Before he was born, doctors told one of my best friends parents that he would be born retarded and paralyzed. They prayed, and he's a healthy, normal adult today. I've got a small pile of these miracle stories I can share too. But the bottom line is that God does not ALWAYS choose to perform miraculous healings. sometimes God heals us through the hands of the doctors he has gifted with special knowledge and abilities.

I don't know what more I can say here. I am simply stunned that people actually think they're being responsible and even righteous for forgoing using the doctors God has given us in favor of sitting around and watching their child get sicker and sicker, slip into a coma, and then die. Yes, God CAN heal through prayer, but he's under no obligation to do so.

As a closing thought, we are called to be a light to the darkness. How do you think the unsaved out there perceive these parents? They probably see them as monsters. Heck, I'm saved and I see them as monsters. What would have been a better witness: Letting your child die in the name of God, or taking your child to the doctor, telling that Doctor that you're praying for God to work though his hands? These parents were so selfish to hold onto their unbiblical views they lost sight of the fact that we're first off supposed to be a light to the world. They ignored this, and became awful, terrible messengers, just so they could cling to some insane notion derived from some misunderstanding of scripture that you can't go the doctors and be a Christian at the same time. It boggles the mind.

 

[Cornelius]

I know many Christians who live without doctors. I know many Christians who do not go to doctors and have been healed of cancer (just two of my close friends in the past year and another more distant friend, this past month) Good friends have just had their baby at home a month ago

How were they diagnosed with cancer if they live without doctors?

[quote:27n9c1tl]

[/quote:27n9c1tl]

Well at least two of them started bleeding internally and then with one of them, God sent two woman, who did not know about the bleeding , a word that he had cancer. Gold first told him, then the woman contacted him and confirmed it.

My other friend developed a growth that was so big that she could not sit anymore. She did go to the doctor to confirm it. She is in the seventies.After the tests, she was told that she had cancer. She then refused treatment and God healed her, this year in March.

Another had cancer, then God brought her to where she is now. She did not start off in faith, she slowly grew in faith, even though her family resisted this and demanded her to see a doctor. She did not, and now her husband is joining her in her faith.

Everybody has their own story.

Some people make a decision while they are in a hospital and they start to walk in faith.


I am not fighting about this, this is normal Christianity for some. We live different lives than our unbelieving neighbors

 

[Cornelius]

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD.

First off, in this passage God isn't upset because they had doctors and other forms of caregivers. The Lord is speaking through Jeremiah, giving a message to Judah, because they had turned away from God completely. They had forgotten God, weren't praying to him at all, ignoring his commandments. Essentially, they had turned their backs on God, and this is why the Lord was upset.

.

Does not really matter how you want to ignore this scripture, it will always say the same thing.

I know it makes you uncomfortable, it is suppose to do that. Its called the narrow road:

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD.

 

[Works4Him]

Does not really matter how you want to ignore this scripture, it will always say the same thing.

I know it makes you uncomfortable, it is suppose to do that. Its called the narrow road:

:rolling

It doesn't make me uncomfortable in the least, and I didn't ignore it. I did put it in the appropriate context. Text without context is pretext, and all that jazz.

If I were rebelling against God, that scripture might make me uncomfortable, but that's not the case. I fully rely on God, and I recognize that sometimes God uses people (such as doctors) to serve His purpose.

This is the second time you've ignored what I said and opted to personally attack me instead. I am getting a sneaking suspicion that I could banter with you all day long, and you'll just keep ignoring most (if not all) of my message in favor of attacking my credibility in any way you can. You're right, this isn't a debate. It's your own personal propoganda machine. I think I'll find something more productive to do. It's raining, maybe I should go to the car wash.

Blessings.

 

[Cornelius]

I did put it in the appropriate context. Text without context is pretext, and all that jazz.

I am not attacking you, that would be fruitless. I do however know what the Bible teaches and that is all I am posting. It could be coming against what you believe, and maybe that is why you see it as an attack.

True context is looking at the whole Bible. That is the appropriate context.

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth;

Without the sum, we make mistakes. That scripture is truth and it fits with what the whole Bible teaches.

C

 

[Gabe]

...I am not attacking you...

Clearly, your definition of "Ad-Hominem" differs from most. People who read this thread can make up their own mind.