Most Christians are idolators

[Adullam]

No idols are sacred to begin with. Now stop trying to circumvent the question and / or subtly trying entrapment, and answer my original question. Although I rather have the answer from the OP.

I'll even answer my own question by scripture. The answer is definitely, positively NO.

Let's look at a definition:

Allegiance: The loyalty that citizens owe to their country (or subjects to their sovereign)

What's the opposite of loyalty? Unfaithfulness.

Unfaithfulness in what? Unfaithfulness in believing (or supporting) what God has said:

I will make of thee a great nation

I think the issue going on here is that people are confusing allegiance with WORSHIP and the idea of the HEADSHIP. I give my allegiance to my wife, but I don't worship her. I'm sorry some people can't distinguish the two --- not my problem, but for those of us who support our country, don't make it into a problem. (Those who disagree are free to move out--- that's the greatness of the USA)

What do you call someone who lives IN the USA but is not of it? I'll bet nobody would think a Christian fits into this catagory???...they will think an illegal alien from latin America. But the level of indoctrination stops the freedom of faith to see Christians as aliens in this world.

Christians are pilgrims and strangers in this world...In the world but not OF it! This is not understood at all but most "believers". A person in bondage gets used to the fetters that make up his confinement...it is his world.


A Christian has a great nation...a holy nation..Israel in the Spirit whose capitol is the New Jerusalem presently in the heavenlies.

If someone has seen this city, or at least believed in it, the earthly allegiances soon fade away!

 

[handy]

Here is an oft ignored verse...

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

But how is "rendering unto Caesar" one's loyalty and obedience, what nations and sovereigns reasonably expect from their citizens and subjects, equal to the sin James is rebuking?

The full context of what James says here is:

James 4:1-5 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

James is not speaking of people who are patriotic here. He is rebuking those who are engaging in lusts and worldly pleasures. Yes, absolutely James is rebuking what has become idolatry...but how do you make the jump from what James is describing to simple patriotism or love for family?

 

[handy]

What do you call someone who lives IN the USA but is not of it? I'll bet nobody would think a Christian fits into this catagory???...they will think an illegal alien from latin America. But the level of indoctrination stops the freedom of faith to see Christians as aliens in this world.

Christians are pilgrims and strangers in this world...In the world but not OF it! This is not understood at all but most "believers". A person in bondage gets used to the fetters that make up his confinement...it is his world.


A Christian has a great nation...a holy nation..Israel in the Spirit whose capitol is the New Jerusalem presently in the heavenlies.

If someone has seen this city, or at least believed in it, the earthly allegiances soon fade away!

Sure we are aliens in this world....I believe that. I certainly don't view this world as my real home, and most all the Christians that I've met, don't either. Almost all Christians that I've met even view and describe death as "going home".

But nonetheless, while we are here, we are still to be obedient and "Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

I don't see the conflict between the two. As Tim PA pointed out, we also need to show our spouse our love and allegiance...this does not mean that we do not have God as our first love.

Yes, we are in this world, not of it. But, while we are in this world, we are to follow the laws and be loyal citizens of the nation that God put us in, for the rulers are His ministers. (It's helpful to remember that Paul was a citizen of none other than Rome.)

I'm not sure if Paul loved Rome or felt patriotic towards it...If I were put in a way-back machine and dumped there, I certainly wouldn't, but I would still be obedient to show fear and honor to it as long as I was there. But, I view America as having been blessed by God (though sadly we seem to be letting go of that blessing) and I do praise and thank God for allowing me to live here. For me, it's no chore to obey Romans 13:7, I can do so joyfully and that is a blessing from God.

When one looks at it this way, it's almost more of a slap to God to be unpatriotic, if one is living in a nation where one can so freely live out our faith and follow God's commands to preach the word and share the Gospel.

 

[Adullam]

But how is "rendering unto Caesar" one's loyalty and obedience, what nations and sovereigns reasonably expect from their citizens and subjects, equal to the sin James is rebuking?

The full context of what James says here is:

James 4:1-5 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

James is not speaking of people who are patriotic here. He is rebuking those who are engaging in lusts and worldly pleasures. Yes, absolutely James is rebuking what has become idolatry...but how do you make the jump from what James is describing to simple patriotism or love for family?

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

 

[Adullam]

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[handy]

Husbands love your wives...
Love thy neighbor as thyself...
By this they will know you are My disciples, if you have love for one another...

The key isn't that we love...we are supposed to be characterized by our love...

It is as our Lord said, and has been repeated in this thread...one cannot love anyone/anything more than our Lord.

We should love the blessings God gives to us. To live in a nation where one is at peace and has the freedoms to proclaim the Gospel and live out our faith is a great blessing.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I have a question for you...Which idols are considered more sacred than others?

A Christian has a great nation...a holy nation..Israel in the Spirit whose capitol is the New Jerusalem presently in the heavenlies.

If someone has seen this city, or at least believed in it, the earthly allegiances soon fade away!

As usual, there are two sides of a coin but only heads is facing up on the ground, and therefore people conclude that's all there is to the coin! (Only heads).

What I am saying is that yes, we have a citizenship in heaven, but that is to rule and reign with Christ. That's the purpose of the church. Not everyone is called now, but God will offer salvation as He sees fit in due time to all.

The Kings and priests that we will become is over the Kingdom of God here on this earth --- and that is presently manifested as Israel and Israel nations as I believe the USA contains people (and are the nation) of some of the lost tribes of Israel.

In this age of grace, God set up the Israel nations to be the light to the world, and the Sovereign to physically hold the throne of King David believed to be in abeyance until "he's whose right" comes again (Ezekiel 21:27).

In other words, if I believe God prophesied this nation, even though it's merely fleshy, there's a reason for it's existence and God's intended purpose. And to thumb my nose up at that is to say God is a liar when he promised that "many nations" shall come from Abraham. These BTW are physical people. This is not descriptive of the church. That's emphatically for sure.

 

[Adullam]

As usual, there are two sides of a coin but only heads is facing up on the ground, and therefore people conclude that's all there is to the coin! (Only heads).

What I am saying is that yes, we have a citizenship in heaven, but that is to rule and reign with Christ. That's the purpose of the church. Not everyone is called now, but God will offer salvation as He sees fit in due time to all.

The Kings and priests that we will become is over the Kingdom of God here on this earth --- and that is presently manifested as Israel and Israel nations as I believe the USA contains people (and are the nation) of some of the lost tribes of Israel.

In this age of grace, God set up the Israel nations to be the light to the world, and the Sovereign to physically hold the throne of King David believed to be in abeyance until "he's whose right" comes again (Ezekiel 21:27).

In other words, if I believe God prophesied this nation, even though it's merely fleshy, there's a reason for it's existence and God's intended purpose. And to thumb my nose up at that is to say God is a liar when he promised that "many nations" shall come from Abraham. These BTW are physical people. This is not descriptive of the church. That's emphatically for sure.

Is that taken from the "Crusaders handbook" ???

There are no holy nations on earth today. The government is in heaven and Christ is the head of that government.

Rather than platitudes about the superiority of democratic republics, the bible is speaking of a holy people who do not get entangled with the affairs of this life, but rather live as Jesus lived in His time here. We are to be separate from the world...owing allegiance ONLY to Christ.

I know many crusader types who would kill in Jesus' name. The nations are full of these.

 

[WIP]

Here’s where I’m a little confused. What is the difference between worship, trust, and love?<O</O
<O</O
If I love something does that mean I worship it? If so then how can I love my wife, my children, or anyone without being guilty of idolatry? How could Jesus command us to love one another if the very command forces us into idolatry?
<O</O
What about trust or faithfulness? Is it wrong for me to trust or have faith in something other than God? I trust in my ability to walk, crawl, roll, or glide in order to be mobile from one place to the next. I trust that my body will continue to function well enough that I will continue to exist. I trust in my ability to safely operate a vehicle every time I get behind the wheel. I trust my employer will pay me when payday rolls around so I can continue to live in this society. Every spring when I plant my crops I trust the weather will cooperate so they will grow and produce grain. I trust my government to make decisions that will be in the best interest of those they serve. I trust my doctor every time I heed his/her advice. I trust my dentist when he’s got that drill stuck in my mouth. I trust a surgeon and all the rest of the staff with my life when I go under the knife. I trust my wife will be faithful to me and honor our marriage vows. Likewise I do my best to be faithful to my wife. <O</O
<O</O
Most of all I trust that God is faithful and will be there with me should something go wrong. <O</O

 

[tim-from-pa]

Is that taken from the "Crusaders handbook" ???

There are no holy nations on earth today. The government is in heaven and Christ is the head of that government.

Rather than platitudes about the superiority of democratic republics, the bible is speaking of a holy people who do not get entangled with the affairs of this life, but rather live as Jesus lived in His time here. We are to be separate from the world...owing allegiance ONLY to Christ.

I know many crusader types who would kill in Jesus' name. The nations are full of these.

And allegiance to the nations in which was prophesied..... by the Lord himself.

 

[handy]

Here’s where I’m a little confused. What is the difference between worship, trust, and love?<o
<o If I love something does that mean I worship it? If so then how can I love my wife, my children, or anyone without being guilty of idolatry? How could Jesus command us to love one another if the very command forces us into idolatry?
<o What about trust or faithfulness? Is it wrong for me to trust or have faith in something other than God? I trust in my ability to walk, crawl, roll, or glide in order to be mobile from one place to the next. I trust that my body will continue to function well enough that I will continue to exist. I trust in my ability to safely operate a vehicle every time I get behind the wheel. I trust my employer will pay me when payday rolls around so I can continue to live in this society. Every spring when I plant my crops I trust the weather will cooperate so they will grow and produce grain. I trust my government to make decisions that will be in the best interest of those they serve. I trust my doctor every time I heed his/her advice. I trust my dentist when he’s got that drill stuck in my mouth. I trust a surgeon and all the rest of the staff with my life when I go under the knife. I trust my wife will be faithful to me and honor our marriage vows. Likewise I do my best to be faithful to my wife. <o
<o Most of all I trust that God is faithful and will be there with me should something go wrong.

<o
Certainly there is a difference between worship, trust and faithfulness.

We are to worship God alone...we are called to be faithful stewards, wives/husbands, faithful in our employment, etc.

Trust, trust can be a stumbling block. Yes, we do put trust in these various situations you mention, but we also must recognize that we cannot trust 100% that the dentist won't make a mistake and drill in the wrong area (happened to me once) or that the check will be in the mail, (yep, both my husband and myself have had to wait for checks at times), or even that the weather will co-operate and you'll get your crop. We can trust, be we need to always first and foremost trust that God will work in all and through all for our benefit...that has to be the foundation of our trust. If we trust in our employer, or dentist, or in the weather alone, we are sure to, sooner or later, be disappointed.</o</o</o</o</o</o

 

[WIP]

It does seem that many in this thread promote the idea that to trust anything or love anything implies idolatry and that is where I'm confused about their position. For example, I mentioned earlier that we are not to trust anything more than God and a reply I got was that we are not to trust anything "except" God. Therein lies my confusion because it is not possible to live on this earth without putting some trust in some things. I think what is important is where our final trust placed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If I love something does that mean I worship it?

Maybe.

It depends if your desire (love) for something causes you to worship it. It's okay to 'love' a pepperoni and cheese pizza. But if you're willing to eat the whole thing and not leave any for your children you're probably serving an idol.

If so then how can I love my wife, my children, or anyone without being guilty of idolatry?

How much money do you have in your wallet or bank account right now? Why do you have any since Christ told us it's impossible to love him and money at the same time? But I'm confident you don't believe God meant we are to have no money. Money is a good way to illustrate how we can have something in our life without making it an idol. As long as it serves us, and we don't serve it (by stealing, or being greedy, etc., to keep it in our lives) then it is not an idol.

Here's a good glimpse into the attitude that uses the things of the world (even 'loves' them) but which does not idolize them keeping God first:

...the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them." (1 Cor. 7: NIV1984)

How could Jesus command us to love one another if the very command forces us into idolatry?

He can do that because Biblical love is not consuming others in our own selfish lusts, as worldly, fleshly love does. Biblical love is the desire for the good and well being of others. Worldly love is the desire for our own good and well being at the expense of others. It's impossible to 'love' someone this way and make idols out of them at the same time, consuming them in our service to that idol.

9...“Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. (Romans 13:9-10 NIV1984 emphasis mine)

I trust my wife will be faithful to me and honor our marriage vows. Likewise I do my best to be faithful to my wife.

And that's good. That is how we are to Biblically love one another in marriage. But if, for example, you idolize marriage as a necessary source of well being and good in your life you will sin in your obedience to that idol. When you see it slipping away you will sin in order to preserve it in your life (commit adultery, fly into a rage, make demands on your spouse...).

We obey what we worship. Worship of idols is characterized by sin. Worship of God is characterized by righteousness. That is how we know if we are worshiping idols.

 

[Adullam]

And allegiance to the nations in which was prophesied..... by the Lord himself.

We are to be salt and light to the people of the earth. Our allegiance is to God.

 

[Elysian]

We are to be salt and light to the people of the earth. Our allegiance is to God.

Well said. There is simply no need for any other allegiance - to country, to anything - allegiance to God alone matters.

 

[tim-from-pa]

We are to be salt and light to the people of the earth. Our allegiance is to God.

And that, my friend, is exactly my point, if it was something (e.g. a nation) spoken of by God. And it's no different with fellow Christians, either. I trust (a form of allegiance) that you would stand up for them, even die for one of them. That's what the bible teaches, no?

 

[Adullam]

And that, my friend, is exactly my point, if it was something (e.g. a nation) spoken of by God. And it's no different with fellow Christians, either. I trust (a form of allegiance) that you would stand up for them, even die for one of them. That's what the bible teaches, no?

Which nation did Jesus die for? Did He die for the world or only the Jews? We must be witnesses to the whole world, not just one division of the world that hates other divisions of the world. A Christian is to be non-partisan. Let the dead bury the dead.

We die for the sake of Christ and His kingdom. We lay down our lives for the brothers in Christ. We live sacrificially for the world to see the love of God.

We are against all allegiances to temporal powers. These powers are ruled by the evil one. Who will lay down their life for the evil one? Many Christians do that very thing!

 

[Hitch]

Which nation did Jesus die for? Did He die for the world or only the Jews? We must be witnesses to the whole world, not just one division of the world that hates other divisions of the world. A Christian is to be non-partisan. Let the dead bury the dead.

We die for the sake of Christ and His kingdom. We lay down our lives for the brothers in Christ. We live sacrificially for the world to see the love of God.

We are against all allegiances to temporal powers. These powers are ruled by the evil one. Who will lay down their life for the evil one? Many Christians do that very thing!

Then set an example,sell all you have and give the money to the poor.

 

[Hitch]

Husbands love your wives...
Love thy neighbor as thyself...
By this they will know you are My disciples, if you have love for one another...

The key isn't that we love...we are supposed to be characterized by our love...

It is as our Lord said, and has been repeated in this thread...one cannot love anyone/anything more than our Lord.

We should love the blessings God gives to us. To live in a nation where one is at peace and has the freedoms to proclaim the Gospel and live out our faith is a great blessing.

Yup. And since Paul tells us even slaves should be dilligent about their labors, its no stretch to say we should see our civic duties as work unto the Lord

 

[Adullam]

Then set an example,sell all you have and give the money to the poor.

How many times?