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My Dissertation on the Rapture.

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I'm not quite as decided on this as I am on many other views.

I used to be firmly in what is called the Post-Trib camp. (Even though unlike many Post-Tribbers I've always been Premilenial, Futurist, Dispensationalist and completely against Replacement Theology.) And certainly never liked the Pre-Trib argument. What Chuck Missler explains about the uniqueness of the Church alters my perspective though, once you understand that not all saved are part of the Church then the references to believers on the Earth during the Tribulation no longer inherently contradicts the Pre-Trib view. But I'm still not sold on the Pre-Trib argument, however rather then being firmly Post-Trib I'm now leaning towards a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath view.

First off, the Pre-Trib camp seems to consider Imminence their cornerstone argument. Verses where the Bible tells us to "Expect" Yeshua's return at any moment. Problem is the intent of those verses weren't about chronology, it's about the attitude believers should take and how we should behave. But they insist it means that the Rapture must be the absolute next thing to happen Chronologically, even though plenty of Prophecies have already been fulfilled while we've been waiting (Israel Restored, the first portion of Isaiah 19 ect.) Now it's the Gog&Magog invasion that can't possibly occur until after the Rapture, but logically before 1948 they'd have had to say the same thing about Israel being reestablished, or till 67 about them reclaiming all of Jerusalem.

When my Dad first starting teaching me how to use a gun, he told me before even letting me touch it to always treat it like it's loaded, even when I know for certain it's not. The point of that instruction to make sure I'm always very very very careful with it, with is a very smart approach to take, but it doesn't change the fact that an unloaded gun still needs to be loaded before you can actually shoot something with it.

The Bible verses that imply Imminence are to tell us to behave like he can return at any moment, to before committing any Sin think "Is that what I want to be in the middle of when Yeshua comes back?" and to motivate us to work firmly in spreading the Gospel and doing God's work by acting like we could run out of time at any time. After all, in a sense it does happen for you immediately when you die. But the fact remains there are at least Two Bible Passages that make it clear the Rapture won't occur at least until after the "Abomination of Desolation".

Before I get to those, contrary to some assumptions I do not believe the exact time of the 2nd Coming will be known once the Tribulation starts, or even after the Mid-Trib sequence of events. The 2nd Coming is not the end-point of the Tribulation like people tend to assume, The Defeat of The Beast/Battle of Armageddon is. We have a tendency to think of that as simultaneous with the 2nd coming but it's actually not, Isaiah 63 tells us he goes first to Edom/Petra to be reunited with Israel. In my view that could be days or even weeks before the final Battle.

Matthew 24's account of the Olivet Discourse first sums up the period affiliated with the 7 Seals in verses 5-8. Then it seems to deal more with the 1st half of the Tribulation until it reaches the "Abomination of Desolation" in verse 15. Then it goes on describing more End Times drama until verses 29-31 when Yeshua (And Pre-Tribbers tend to ignore this) explicitly says
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is clearly the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4, and clearly described as AFTER a tribulation. And also in this narrative it seems to be significantly after the "Abomination of Desolation"

I will in more detail discus 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2. First off, many take the language of "By letter as from us" in verse 2 as referring to a latter falsely attributed to Paul. Maybe it is, but I think it's more likely the point is he's referring to people misunderstanding or outright misusing what he said in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4. He certainly is referring to that exact same event when he says "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Now he goes on to explain in no uncertain terms.
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
I put "and" in bold, because Pre-Tribbers like to insist only the first of these two things has to happen first.

The Pre-Trib camp likes to make this fit their view by insisting the "Restrainer" mentioned latter is The Holy Spirit. First if they want to build Doctrine on that they need to show other verses consistently using that as a title of The Holy Spirit, because to me "Restraint" seems to be the opposite of The Holy Spirit's mission during the Church Age when I look at Acts 2 and other places. But even if it where, that doesn't undermine the clearly chronological implication that Paul in unambiguously saying that the Gathering Together will NOT happen till After the "Man of Sins" is revealed. Yet so many Pre-Tribbers insist the Church will never encounter that individual. That's part of the danger of the Pre-Trib view to me, The Bible gives us all those clues about his identity for a reason, the Church should using them, not just insisting "We'll never meet him anyway".

Also, as much as Pre-Tribbers love to make it sound like the Earliest Church fathers supported their view (Though again basing that only on quotes the emphasis Imminence) that fact is none of them support the "Restrainer" being The Holy Spirit or The Church. Ireaneus, and others felt it refereed to the Roman Empire. Tertullian says in http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.xxiv.html that ""only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?". I'm not inclined ot agree with this view but it shows that the Holy Spirit interpretation is not universal.

Now, let's get into this "Restrainer" verse, first of all the KJV rendering in verse 7 is.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
There could possibly be translational issues with the phrase rendered "taken out of the way" but that's incidental.

It's "He who now letteth" is who is commonly called here the "Restrainer" Restrain is what the Greek word translated "letteth" actually means. The previous verse uses the same word (Though in a different form) and the KJV translated it "Withholdeth". If the same restrainer is in mind there, it adds an interesting context, it makes it sound like the one being revealed here is also the restrainer, or the one pulling his strings who is Satan. Which makes it then interesting to cross reference this with my dissertation on Satan's Fall form Heaven, that it's a future not a past event.

I think it's very possible Satan is restraining himself right now, he doesn't want to make the Bible Prophecy come true, hopping to do that and still avert the last part. But also because he still holds his position of Authority and is biding his time before openly rebelling against God. So using his puppets he is trying to use other means, not directly part of Bible prophecy to exterminate the Jews and The Church, which is why things like the Holocaust happen. But Revelation 12:12 warns a time will come when he will "Know he has but a short time left" I believe that literally refers to him becoming fully bound to the Space-Time continuum when he's cast out of Heaven. I believe it's around this time that the "Abomination of Desolation" occurs, exactly whether before or after I'm uncertain on.

That's one way of looking at it, but I one I can see many uncomfortable with. Job makes clear God does restrain Satan, but it's not any specific person of the Trinity affiliated with that. But the greater point is, whoever the Restrainer is, it doesn't contradict that the text clearly says "The Man of Sin" is reveled before the Harpatzo discussed in 1 Thessalonians, and that how he's revealed is by performing the Abomination of Desolation.

I've thought about it and now I've come to view that the restrainer being removed refers to to when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9. The beast is refereed to as Ascending "out of the Bottomless Pit", I believe it's Apollyon/Abbadon being imprisoned there that is restraining the him from making his move. The word translated "he" (Strong# 846) there can also mean "it" or "thing". So the restrainer could be an object rather then a personality, like perhaps the lock keeping the Abyss sealed and the entities inside chained.

So to me, all these passages are insurmountable obstacles for the Pre-Trib view. But I am very open to Mid-Trib, possibly with the Rapture occurring in Revelation 14.
 
There isnt enough salt in the ocean to temper Missler's claims.
 
1 Thessalonians does it for me.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Tells me at the last trumpet, right before Jesus sets foot on Mount Zion.
 
The Rapture and Second Coming are separate event, contrary to some people's opinions that's true even in a post-Trib model, the Marriage of the Bride and Bridegroom happens in-between.
 
The Rapture and Second Coming are separate event, contrary to some people's opinions that's true even in a post-Trib model, the Marriage of the Bride and Bridegroom happens in-between.

1 Thessalonians 4;16,17

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

To me this means it happens at the same time.
 
Religious people are always arguing about WHEN it will happen - PRE - MID - POST tribulation. Believing NO RAPTURE solves all those arguments.

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).

Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.

Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.

Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.

Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.
2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).

Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....
Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...
Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.

I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?

ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;

Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...

Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...

Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...

Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).

Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.

Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.

Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.

Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.

Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.
The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.

Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO
Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO
Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO
Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO
Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.
Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO
Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO
Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION
 
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.

Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.
In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Revelation 11:9; "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

They simple do not want these bodies to come alive, or claim life when they in fact are dead. The world is witness to the corps of the two bodies. And they will think of all the damage these two prophets did to their crops and property; and most of all, the insults the witnesses gave this first Christ {Antichrist}, whom they all believed to be Jesus. Antichrist did as their rapture theory promised it would do. They got their wing's all right, straight to Satan's camp.

Revelation 11:10; "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The torment the two gave the world was naming the Antichrist, Satan. This was unthinkable, for their traditions taught them otherwise.

Revelation 11:11; "And after three and an half [days] the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Did you catch the time frame here? It's three and a half days following the death of two witnesses that the world will rejoice over their death.
When the whole world celebrates, you better be getting ready to meet your maker. Friend, the only flying out of here is by the two witnesses, and it is recorded here. God's elect will be changed here at this time.

Revelation 11:12; "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them [two witnesses], Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

There is no secret to this rapture, of two, for who are their enemies? Those who were against God's two witnesses.

Revelation 11:13; "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

This is Satan, and his fallen angels [that locust army of Revelation 9] that were caste out with him.

The remnent who gave God the glory, are God's elect, and those who are sealed of God, including the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. Those are the ones chosen to stand against the Antichrist, and only them. The traditions of men will be preached right up to the seventh trump. What happens then at the seventh trump? Well, that is what First Thessalonians 4 is all about. "The gathering back to Christ at the seventh trumpet".
 
All the information is there, but obviously also hidden.

For the record there will be no individual person as the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is a spirit.

Peter also tells us that judgment begins where?

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Those standing around reading the news about Israel, Jerusalem or Rome are probably missing the picture.

s
 
The reason I try to avoid using the term "Antichrist" is to avoid people going about what Johns' Epistles say, the "Spirit of Antichrist" from John's Epistles I think is more relevant to the 2nd Beast then the First actually.

There clearly an individual coming villain who rule the world, who will repeat when Antiochus Epiphanies did.
 
The reason I try to avoid using the term "Antichrist" is to avoid people going about what Johns' Epistles say, the "Spirit of Antichrist" from John's Epistles I think is more relevant to the 2nd Beast then the First actually.

There clearly an individual coming villain who rule the world, who will repeat when Antiochus Epiphanies did.

The first beast is a political system,the second beast is satan himself,live and in color,as the anti christ.......

satan comes pretending to be Christ,this is what the trib is all about,that deception.......
 
The reason I try to avoid using the term "Antichrist" is to avoid people going about what Johns' Epistles say, the "Spirit of Antichrist" from John's Epistles I think is more relevant to the 2nd Beast then the First actually.

That is what the scripture says. People don't 'go on about it,' they read and understand what is presented.
There clearly an individual coming villain who rule the world, who will repeat when Antiochus Epiphanies did.
Word presents spiritual matters pitted against the above.

Put that fact in your eschatology studies.

It will be a factual look, and honest to the text.

s
 
People use a word to describe something the Bible never it to describe, and then people act like pointing out that misuse of the word disproves the existence of the thing they where describing with it. That's my problem here.

There is clearly a "Man of Sin" and "Son of Perdition" in 2nd Thessalonians, and a Beast in Revelation, and a "Little Horn in Daniel".
 
People use a word to describe something the Bible never it to describe, and then people act like pointing out that misuse of the word disproves the existence of the thing they where describing with it. That's my problem here.

There is clearly a "Man of Sin" and "Son of Perdition" in 2nd Thessalonians, and a Beast in Revelation, and a "Little Horn in Daniel".

If it has been pointed out to you that you have misused a word to describe something you believe to be true, then it is incumbent upon you to correctly describe 'whatever' in order to prove your point. We all can agree that these various 'entities' exist (or will exist, or did exist), but it gets interesting when we try to explicitly define them. I.E. What exactly do you mean by 'what/whomever'?
 
I'm not entirely certain the exact nature of who or what this individual will be. The first issue thought is are those 3 passages referring to the same person?

The Olivite Discourse assured us the "Abomination of Desolation" which Antiochus Epiphanies performed will happen again, that tells us much of Daniel 8 and 11 is yet future. Someone doing what Paul Describes in 2nd Thesselonian 2 would certainly fit the definition, as would the Image depicted in Revelation 13. So I don't thinks it's a stretch to view those prophecies as overlapping.
 
The Rapture and Second Coming are separate event, contrary to some people's opinions that's true even in a post-Trib model, the Marriage of the Bride and Bridegroom happens in-between.


So you saying Christ returns twice more?

Although believing or not believing in a rapture is not a salvation issue,the danger in believing it sets one up to be deceived by satan, when he comes pretending to be Christ................
 
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