NDE's Near Death Experiences

[Lewis]

I believe in NDE's, I believe that God shows certain people that He is real, and that there is life after death. And also He has changed people who did not believe in Him, and these people all of them turn out to be people of God.
The founder of the Rama Bible school had such an experience, I am sitting here watching TBN, and one of todays programs is on NDE's I have seen this program 2 times before a couple years ago. But anyway I believe in NDE's.
You can't put God in a box, He has the power to do anything. And no matter where at in the world, people who go through a NDE all say the same things, even children. So who on this board does not believe in NDE's ? Oh and when God does bring you back to your body after death, of your body. It is always for a divine purpose, and all of these people know where they stand in life, and none of them, I mean none of them are ever afraid of death again. They are very calm and focused, God and people loving folks, who work for God, with al their might.

 

[Quath]

It may come as no surprise, but I do not believe in NDE. To me that are just dreams we have as we start to die.

But if NDEs were real, it would be a blow to almost every religion because every religious person sees their religion in the afterlife. So Allah, Jesus, Vishnu and Zeus are all in the afterlife if NDEs are to be believed.

Quath

 

[Lonelyguide]

There are countless cases of NDEs. This one is not uninteresting:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

And (Christian NDEs) ...

http://www.near-death.com/origen.html

 

[Muad'Dib]

That's not necessarily accurate Quath. Most people who have these experience describe the vision of an afterlife, not of God or any other religious deity. These visions are not usually religiously specific. And also, a person who believes in Allah is likely to twist their vision to what their beliefs are here on Earth after time has passed from the near death experience. It makes it easer to swallow than if their own religious beliefs had been dashed. Of course, Christians could do this too. So we are left at square one. Either you choose to have faith in God or you do not.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Muad'Dib,

I generally agree with you. Given those facts, however, there is nothing we can deduce about the afterlife.

Assuming those experiences are genuine (something I am simply stipulating here), it does not offer "evidence" that Christianity is correct, that Yahweh/Jesus is god.

It may reduce Pascal's wager by one variable, but it leaves the wager victim to the multitude of theologies, religions, faiths and even the the possibility that no one has accurately described what happens after you die. We don't know if the deity that moved you to the afterlife even cares about you or your life.

Even an atheistic position of "but if there is a God, and he is good, he will judge me on the merits of my life" is completely valid in this situation.

So I somewhat agree, we are left as square one. Either there is a god (I purposely uncapitalized that word) or there isn't. We really haven't answered anything.

 

[Lewis]

Assuming those experiences are genuine (something I am simply stipulating here), it does not offer "evidence" that Christianity is correct, that Yahweh/Jesus is god.

Well I don't agree with that because, the God of the Bible is the only true God.
All others are false. So it is the God of the Bible giving certain people these NDE's. Because no false God has this power. So this is proof that the God of the Bible is the true God. Because there are no others. The Bible says that there is only one true God. And that is the God of the Bible.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Well I don't agree with that because, the God of the Bible is the only true God.

The whole point of Muab's post, with which I agreed, is that you can't tell anything about anything based on a NDE. The come in all shapes and sizes.

Like I said, it doesn't enhance or detract from your claims about your deity. I am not sure how this add "proof", in your words, since Muslims and others sometimes claim the same experience.

All others are false.

We agree completely. The only difference I apply the same standard to your god as well.

So this is proof that the God of the Bible is the true God. Because there are no others.

Proof...I hear that so much around here. Hebrews 11:1 clearly states that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Also, one is justified by faith, according to many Christians.

Well, Lewis, you often attempt to demonstrate proof that the earth is young, science proves the bible correct in everything, and that certain things could not have occurred without God.

Given this overwhelming "proof" you claim, I fail to see where you have faith. If one is saved through faith, I am curious how you claim to be saved, since you attempt to demonstrate proof after proof after prrof. If the bible's God is a 100% certainty, or even a reasonable probability, I am curious how you claim faith at all?

The Bible says that there is only one true God. And that is the God of the Bible.

I've never quite heard that tautology put so eloquently...wow.

 

[Lewis]

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

That is proof right there. Now when NDE's happen to Muslims it is the God of the Bible reaching to them.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

That is proof right there. Now when NDE's happen to Muslims it is the God of the Bible reaching to them.

A muslim would say that it is Allah of the Koran reaching to those Christians who have NDE's.

Again, we have no additional information to deduce who is right, other that the original base beliefs of those making the claims.

For example, if 95% of Muslims who have NDE's convert to Christianity immediately, or vice versa, that might be compelling. As it is, I haven't heard anything other than NDE's enhancing the faith already held by the person who alledgedly experiences it.

Also, you didn't address my proof vs. faith question.

 

[Lewis]

Also, you didn't address my proof vs. faith question.

What are you talking about ? I really don't have to prove anything, all I have to do is, say what the Bible says, and that proves everything. You are saved by faith, and proclaiming with the mouth that Jesus was raised from the dead.
So what are you driving at ? I really don't understand, clarify.

I fail to see where you have faith.

And what do you mean by that statement ?

I am curious how you claim to be saved, since you attempt to demonstrate proof after proof after prrof. If the bible's God is a 100% certainty, or even a reasonable probability, I am curious how you claim faith at all?

Are you telling me that you doubt my faith in Christ ? And because I try to prove things by the Bible, it makes me have a lack of faith ?

I am curious how you claim faith at all

Why would you make that kind of statement, I find it very offensive.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Also, you didn't address my proof vs. faith question.

What are you talking about ? I really don't have to prove anything, all I have to do is, say what the Bible says, and that proves everything. You are saved by faith, and proclaiming with the mouth that Jesus was raised from the dead.
So what are you driving at ? I really don't understand, clarify.

[quote:e2667]I fail to see where you have faith.

And what do you mean by that statement ?

I am curious how you claim to be saved, since you attempt to demonstrate proof after proof after prrof. If the bible's God is a 100% certainty, or even a reasonable probability, I am curious how you claim faith at all?

Are you telling me that you doubt my faith in Christ ? And because I try to prove things by the Bible, it makes me have a lack of faith ?

I am curious how you claim faith at all

Why would you make that kind of statement, I find it very offensive.[/quote:e2667]

First of all, it was not my intent to offend, so I apologize if some of my questions were received that way.

The crux of my question is if "faith" and "proof" are mutually exclusive. The verse from Hebrews certainly seems to indicate that.

So if there is evidences that proves God or proves the Bible is right, isn't there less faith? Since faith is what you believe without proof, doesn't proof only take away from faith? Since one is saved by faith, doesn't proof only hurt a Christian?

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and again I did not mean to impugn the strength of your beliefs, only how they can be juxiposed against the proofs you also claim.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I have had a NDE and it changed my life and may be the single most important transition of my life......

 

[Lewis]

Did you really ? What was yours like ?

 

[guibox]

There are some things to consider when trying to use NDEs to prove the after life:

1)There is the problem of defining death.

"The Editor of Lancet, a journal dedicated to medical research, points out that "only a deliberate use of obsolete definitions of death can enable one to claim that anybody has, under clinical conditions, returned to tell us what lies beyond death, for by working definition, periodically updated, death is just beyond the point from which anybody can return to tell us anything."21 Similarly, Professor Paul Kurts comments, "We have no hard evidence that the subjects had in fact died. Such a proof is not impossible to obtain: rigor mortis is one sign and brain death is another. What the accounts actually describe is ‘dying process or near-death experience, not death itself.’" - Dr. S. Bacchiocchi "Immortality or Resurrection"

2) Any person hovering between life and death must be suffering profound physical and psychological stress. A brain starved of oxygen, drugged by hallucinatory painkillers, or excited by fever is hardly likely to function properly and who knows what visions could be accounted for by its disturbed conditions. Some research has shown the similarity that exists between near-death experiences and the effects caused by psychedelic drugs.

3) How can it be established that near-death experiences are "real experiences," rather than the product of the patients’ own mind? And why is it that nearly all the reports of near-death experiences concern happiness and heavenly fulfillment, but no glimpses of the fiery torments of hell? It is evident that when people are dying they prefer to dream about the bliss of heaven rather than the suffering of hell. But even the vision of heaven depends largely upon one’s religious background.


We should always remember that deathbed or near-death experiences are experiences of people who are still alive or whose mind have regained consciousness. Whatever they experience under such circumstances is still part of their present life and not of life after death.

5) Lastly, the Bible doesn't support such a concept. Rather we see that none of the people who were literally brought back from the dead had any experiences to tell. The Bible clearly states that we await resurrection to life in the graves and the voice of Christ brings us forth to life.

Satan's New Age deception of the immortality of the soul denies this life giving power of Christ and opens the door for more and more deception on life after death.

If we follow the Bible, we don't need to fall for the Greek/New Age/Occultic views that Satan uses to deceive the nations. Such deceptions are cleared up and not to be feared or cause confusion on those who follow God's true word.

 

[Soma-Sight]

guibox,

You are a true Adventist my friend....

I have read that rhetoric to a "T" and often it saddens me to a great degree to see people condemn the experience of God as "Satanic".

Did you really ? What was yours like ?

I have had several epiphanies and 3 that I can think of right now were in the presence of witnesses.

The one that I like to tell people about the most goes as follows.....

I was camping in the mountains with my fiancee, my brother, and my best friend.

Our primary objective when we go into nature is to talk about God, talk about life, and share our problems with each other and grow together as best we can.

This particular night I had an argument with my best friend over the fact that "Fear" has a tendancy to cloud this mans vision and keep him from taking risks.

I will not go into too much detail but one of the central "Fears" this person has is that of quiting smoking for good and the fact that he allows certain people to walk all over him without ever fighting back or taking a chance to stick up for himself.

We discussed the fact that Christ feels ALL the sin commited by all people for all time and to continue in a lifestyle that promotes cancer and cowardess should finally be stopped. We prayed together and in the end my friend decides to "leave" because he felt uncormfortable and needed to buy more cigarettes.

At this time I felt the Holy Spirit take over my body and in a sense could "see" and "feel" what this persons sins were doing to Christ literally. Everyone in our campground felt a change in the air and began to get very uncomfortable. I pleaded to my best friend to stop or the cancer he would get from his destructive habits would not only effect his life and his families, but Christs as well.

I broke down in tears and still my friend said he had to go and we were to leave immediately even though everyone else in the group wished to stay.

At this point I felt betrayl like no other. I had exposed my heart to my best friend and he still refused to even stay for a littel longer to pray for each other and plan our lives for God.

It was now dark and I felt the most intense rush of energy I have ever experienced and ran down the mountain full speed ahead with no light and no way to possibly see where I was going.

Something had taken control of me and I knew I had to leave.

I ran with my eyes closed and could "see" outside myself as I treaded down the trail that was not there.

I finally came down to where a "real" trail was and all of a sudden as I looked up I saw the shining Glory of Jesus Christ looking back to me.

As I looked at the detail of His face I could see that there were tears streaming down His face and knew at once that "this" was the infamous Gethsamene spoken of in the Bible.

I realized that the pain I felt by my best friend letting me down again and not even caring about the fact that I loved him and wanted him to live was the same pain that Christ felt when His disciples betrayed Him in his darkest hour in the Garden.

I fell to the ground like a limp rag and cried like i never have and probably never will again. Tears streamed down my face as I could "feel" what the ignorance and apathy of man and Jesus closest frieds did to the Son of God in His heart. The pain was overwhelming and at the same time beyond all words.

I stayed on my knees for a time ( I am not sure how long ) and prayed to God to forgive me of my own apathy and to wake up the world to the massive rapings of the Divine Child through religious wars, hate, racism, and all other forms of evil. There was a time when I forgot my own name, body, sex, class, creed and simply dissoleved into the Holy presence of Christ. There was no difference between myself and His love. We were one together and closer that the tightest bond.

It has always been this way.

I just forgot that as I grew up and became an "adult".

I picked myself up once again and the He was gone. I kept walking and could literaly "see in the dark" exactly where I needed to go through Faith alone.

I still felt SO SAD and SO DEPRESSED that this was REALITY for Christ as we continue to destroy each other and ourselves.

THEN THE MAGIC MOMENT CAME....

I had walked for another ten minutes and stopped to take a deep breath to let it all "Sink in".....

As I looked to the Heavens I raised my arms up trying to touch the sky and feel the forgiveness that the Holy Spirit brings to all people that have the Truth of Love in their hearts....

As I looked up to the sky a White Light beamed down and hit me square in the middle of my eyes. It was like a swirling vortex of pure energy and Light infusing my Spirit with Love and acceptance no matter what my past mistakes were. As I basked in the Light I could see "forms" coming "up and down" the beam of Light.

They were ANGELS!!!!!! :angel:

No words could possibly convey what I felt at that moment.

These Beings were SO powerful and SO GOOD!

I knew they were always there protecting us from ourselves and the power of Satan and the ego.

They went up and down the "ladder" of Light and Sang to the Most High God. They had no sex, in that I mean no gender and worshipped the Divine Presence beyond all descriptions that man has tried to convey in too simplistic a term like

"Father"????

I did "feel' like the Light was a "comforting presence" like a father but it was beyond this crude description.

At any rate this went on for a moment and the sounds of the Angels singing lifted my Spirits up to the Heavens. ( I am not sure if I literally left my body or was in it - to steal a quote from Paul )

It was a "hum" and "vibration" that hits you right square in the heart and center of the mind. Like when you see that first love in High School or you find out a child survived cancer.... That kind of sound..... That kind of Love....

I wont bore you much more but this is how in ended

My best friedn and everyone that went on this trip felt the presence of the Holy Spirit that night.

They could not figure out how I had made it to the car before them with no light and without rushing. You have to remember that I was "floored" for quite a while as the emotions took over my heart.


The one bit of empirical evidence I have for this besides the eye witnesses that "felt Christ" around us was as follows...

I lift weights...

I am an avid bodybuilder and blew a disk in my back two weeks earlier.

I had been going to a chiropracter and doctor and they both felt surgery may be the future for me.....

This is documented. Not that it matters..... :roll:

But at any rate my back was healed after this....

COMPLETELY!

I have my own mother to vouche for this.... She still does not even know of "How" this happened. My back was HEALED!!!!!

There is no scientific way this could have happend...

So thats my story believe it or not.....

 

[Soma-Sight]

It may come as no surprise, but I do not believe in NDE. To me that are just dreams we have as we start to die.

If I could put your eyes in my mind you would change your mind.

I guarantee it.

We are not talking "physical eyes" either.....

I hope you DO see the Other someday.... (before real death that is)

 

[guibox]

Soma,

It sounds like you were taken up in vision or something. It was not a NDE. You were not dying nor near dying. Your experience was something different.

The Bible says that 'the soul who sins shall die' and that man IS a soul, he doesn't have one. The Bible makes it clear that the dead are dead until the resurrection ONLY then is 'death swallowed up in victory' (1 Corinthians 15:55).

NDEs are either psychological aberrations or satanic influence. The Bible makes it clear on that topic.

However, it does sound like your experience was a visionary one.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Soma,

It sounds like you were taken up in vision or something. It was not a NDE. You were not dying nor near dying. Your experience was something different.

The Bible says that 'the soul who sins shall die' and that man IS a soul, he doesn't have one. The Bible makes it clear that the dead are dead until the resurrection ONLY then is 'death swallowed up in victory' (1 Corinthians 15:55).

NDEs are either psychological aberrations or satanic influence. The Bible makes it clear on that topic.

However, it does sound like your experience was a visionary one.

Well at least you are not throwing stones like some do... and I see your point in some regards.

I might add that it is a disturbing thought to believe that SATAN is at your death bed when you need GOD the most.

SATAN is there to decieve you for whatever reason, into believing that God is all Love, hell is not eternal, and whatever other false doctrine these folks bring back to us. Also SATAN gives you possibly the most profound experience of your life.... Most NDE people admit this.... that it is the most profound thing they have ever experienced....

And its all due to SATAN and a "false Christ".... Talk about a depressing thought.....

Its too bad the DEVIL gives that to people if your theory is correct and all the Heavenly scenes, Angels, and Godly encounters are nothing more than another existential dupe for people that have nothing left but spirit and an IV tube in a Hospice somewhere...

In fact if the Adventist is correct... even the children are being Satanically induced to see Heaven.... There are many NDE's of children who describe in vivid detail "flying with the Angels" and "seeing old man God" in Heaven as they cough up blood struggling with Leukemia.....

Good old SATAN up to his tricks again.

As you take your last breath and somehow are healed back to life.... you can thank SATAN and his great throne as the prince of this world....

How sad.

 

[DJ]

hey everyone i believe in nde

hey everyone i believe in near death experiences because i have been spared time and time again. I was born 4 months premature and i had heart sugerys, lung collapses, eye surgerys and many more different surgerys. I have also been in 3 car crashes. So i think that God has spared me for a reason. And i truley believe that nde are true. hope i havent offended anyone i just wanted to say why i believe this way. ttyl

 

[Soma-Sight]

hey everyone i believe in near death experiences because i have been spared time and time again. I was born 4 months premature and i had heart sugerys, lung collapses, eye surgerys and many more different surgerys. I have also been in 3 car crashes. So i think that God has spared me for a reason. And i truley believe that nde are true. hope i havent offended anyone i just wanted to say why i believe this way. ttyl

Right on man....

Dont worry about offending people.....

Christ didnt!