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OzSpen

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The 'New Vision for a Better Christian Community' of positive encouragement and lessening of debate and conflicts seems to be missing this element of NT Christianity:

Galatians 2:11 (NIRV)

When Peter came to Antioch, I told him to his face that I was against what he was doing. He was clearly wrong.

2 Tim 2:23-26 (NIRV):

23 Don’t have anything to do with arguing. It is dumb and foolish. You know it only leads to fights. 24 Anyone who serves the Lord must not be hard to get along with. Instead, they must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach. The one who serves must not hold anything against anyone. 25 They must gently teach those who are against them. Maybe God will give a change of heart to those who are against you. That will lead them to know the truth. 26 Maybe they will come to their senses. Maybe they will escape the devil’s trap. He has taken them as prisoners to do what he wanted.

2 Tim 4:2 (NIRV):

Preach the word. Be ready to serve God in good times and bad. Correct people’s mistakes. Warn them. Encourage them with words of hope. Be very patient as you do these things. Teach them carefully.

Titus 2:15 (NIRV):

These are the things you should teach. Encourage people and give them hope. Correct them with full authority. Don’t let anyone look down on you.

Jude 1:3 (NIRV)

Dear friends, I really wanted to write to you about the salvation we share. But now I feel I should write and ask you to stand up for the faith. God’s holy people were trusted with it once and for all time.

1 John 4:1-6 (NIRV):

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit. Test the spirits to see if they belong to God. Many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 Here is how you can recognize the Spirit of God. Every spirit agreeing that Jesus Christ came in a human body belongs to God. 3 But every spirit that doesn’t agree with this does not belong to God. You have heard that the spirit of the great enemy of Christ is coming. Even now it is already in the world.
4 Dear children, you belong to God. You have not accepted the teachings of the false prophets. That’s because the one who is in you is powerful. He is more powerful than the one who is in the world. 5 False prophets belong to the world. So they speak from the world’s point of view. And the world listens to them. 6 We belong to God. And those who know God listen to us. But those who don’t belong to God don’t listen to us. That’s how we can tell the difference between the Spirit of truth and the spirit of lies.

Christians in the early church went astray, accepting false teachings and false prophets. What did the apostle say the Christian community had to do with these people?
  • Test the spirits to see if they belong to God;
  • Correct them with full authority;
  • Stand up for the faith;
  • Correct people’s mistakes. Warn them. Encourage them with words of hope. Be very patient as you do these things. Teach them careful;
  • Don’t have anything to do with arguing;
  • They must gently teach those who are against them;
  • Paul was against what Peter was doing. He was clearly wrong.
Like a loving parent who disciplines erring children, God shows us in Scripture that we are not only to love people, but also we are to correct their mistakes, false doctrine gently and with encouragement. The biblical emphases are that we love, but love also includes correction.

Oz
 
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I don't think THE NEW VISION is asking us to sacrifice anything about correction

A,

The Conversation message I received stated in part:

Certain forums have merged or been removed, and more changes are to come which are carefully purposed to de-emphasize debate and conflicts. These attributes will be replaced by encouragement, communal learning, growing, and loving as we are loved. When we speak to each other, it has to be with the primary purpose of building up rather than tearing down.​

So debates and conflicts will be replaced by encouragement, communal learning, growing and loving.

There is no mention here of correction and rebuke (done lovingly) that are in the Scriptures I provided in the OP.

If CFnet wants to create an encouraging environment for growing and loving, it needs to state clearly that this also is a forum that includes,
  • Testing the spirits to see if they belong to God;
  • Correcting false teaching, with full authority;
  • Standing up for the faith when non-biblical positions are advocated;
  • Correcting people’s mistakes. Warn them. Encourage them with words of hope. Be very patient as you do these things. Teach them careful;
  • Don’t have anything to do with arguing;
  • They must gently teach those who are against them;
  • Paul was against what Peter was doing. He was clearly wrong and Paul told him so.
Are the biblical emphases of these points included in the 'New Direction'? I didn't see it in the Conversation piece I received.

Oz
 
Correction is a task best left for the experts at it.

Notice that in the scriptures above only the Apostle's apprentices are told to correct anyone...the others are told to defend the truth and test any "new" truths and continue to not accept false teachers.

Obvious errors (such as promoting sin) will never be tolerated here. Gnosticism in all it's forms isn't allowed doctrine...the owner won't permit it and I don't believe that any of the moderating team will either.

But what usually happens is that people end up arguing over the sufficient measurements for the water used in ceremonial hand washing. (Literally and figuratively speaking)
And the Owner of this forum has said, "Enough!"
 
A,

The Conversation message I received stated in part:

Certain forums have merged or been removed, and more changes are to come which are carefully purposed to de-emphasize debate and conflicts. These attributes will be replaced by encouragement, communal learning, growing, and loving as we are loved. When we speak to each other, it has to be with the primary purpose of building up rather than tearing down.​

So debates and conflicts will be replaced by encouragement, communal learning, growing and loving.

There is no mention here of correction and rebuke (done lovingly) that are in the Scriptures I provided in the OP.

If CFnet wants to create an encouraging environment for growing and loving, it needs to state clearly that this also is a forum that includes,
  • Testing the spirits to see if they belong to God;
  • Correcting false teaching, with full authority;
  • Standing up for the faith when non-biblical positions are advocated;
  • Correcting people’s mistakes. Warn them. Encourage them with words of hope. Be very patient as you do these things. Teach them careful;
  • Don’t have anything to do with arguing;
  • They must gently teach those who are against them;
  • Paul was against what Peter was doing. He was clearly wrong and Paul told him so.
Are the biblical emphases of these points included in the 'New Direction'? I didn't see it in the Conversation piece I received.

Oz
Hi Oz,
I think the verses you posted are spot on with the direction we are heading, but it's a lot of work, and your help would be greatly appreciated to move us forward. We cant do it alone.

The only pushback I'm going to give you is in regard to testing the spirit, and teaching with authority. Before you or anyone jumps to false conclusions, I'm asking that you hear me out.

For too long this site has created division chasing real and imagined heresy. Some were real good at correcting false teachings with "Full Authority" and it had become a trend. Monkey see, monkey do.

Can you loose your salvation? Some say yes, some say no. Both speaking with authority, and both void of love. Hop on the crazy train... how about Baptism, Trinity...? The list can go on.

Out of your 7 biblical points, many only know how to implement one of them and they use that to justify their behavior.

As a member of the church of Christ, I view myself as a restorationist, not a reformist. In short, I look for things in the first and second centuries. One thing I find outside of scripture is the Didache. While I do not hold it in the esteem of Holy Scripture i do see it as a complementary historical reference.

What we see in that document is a huge emphasis on how the church behaves. The way we treat one another as well as others takes up the bulk of their core doctrines. They lay the foundation for Baptism and the Eucharist, but again, they teach how to test the spirits and at its core is through behavior.

The church has lost its direction where we think church is a building we attend and our identity has become rooted more in the sign over the door than in Christ. Example, if we go to "that" church and have all the right answers to the specific doctrines that tear the Church apart, then were justified in our poor behavior. Im a Baptist, I'm a Methodist, I'm a Catholic... our identity has become more of a label to ourselves than that of Christ, and each church speaks in authority against the Body of Christ over doctrines that dont promote unity through behavior, but rather it winks at poor behavior because they got you fighting your brother. Meanwhile, Satan is sitting back laughing at us.

When we look at Paul getting in Peter's face, we have to keep in mind that Paul went to Jerusalem after his conversion and learned more about Jesus directly from Peter for what?? 3 years? You can check me on this.

My point is this, Peter and Paul knew each other. They had a healthy relationship. It's kind of like this. I can talk bad about my Mom because she's my Mom and you know what? My Mom will always love me. But dont you dare talk bad about my Mom.

It's about family roots. Peter submitted to Paul not only because Paul was right, but also because they had a healthy relationship.

Let's talk about this online community. We get a new member, and before anyone gets to know them, they are getting attacked. 1 of your 7 bullet points gets invoked and the failure to implement the other 6 is justified because they are speaking truth with authority.

Oz, I respect you and I feel as I have gotten to know you a little. Your thought matter to me and I am encouraged by much of what you write.
 
Correction is a task best left for the experts at it.

Notice that in the scriptures above only the Apostle's apprentices are told to correct anyone...the others are told to defend the truth and test any "new" truths and continue to not accept false teachers.

John,

That is not so.

Take a read of 2 Tim 2:22-26 (NIRV), which I included in the OP:

22 [You] Run away from the evil things that young people long for. Try hard to do what is right. Have faith, love and peace. Do these things together with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with arguing. It is dumb and foolish. You know it only leads to fights. 24 Anyone who serves the Lord must not be hard to get along with. Instead, they must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach. The one who serves must not hold anything against anyone. 25 They must gently teach those who are against them. Maybe God will give a change of heart to those who are against you. That will lead them to know the truth. 26 Maybe they will come to their senses. Maybe they will escape the devil’s trap. He has taken them as prisoners to do what he wanted.​

Those 'who call on the Lord from a pure heart ... must gently teach those who are against them'. That is not the responsibility of the apostles' apprentices, but it belongs to 'anyone who serves the Lord'.

Acts 17:11 (NIRV) gives a similar message: 'The Berean Jews were very glad to receive Paul’s message. They studied the Scriptures carefully every day. They wanted to see if what Paul said was true. So they were more noble than the Thessalonian Jews'.

It is the responsibility of all Christians 'who call on the Lord from a pure heart' to check out what anyone teaches as compared with Scriptures. It is not the responsibility only of leaders and 'experts' in Bible and theology.

Oz
 
John,

That is not so.

Take a read of 2 Tim 2:22-26 (NIRV), which I included in the OP:

22 [You] Run away from the evil things that young people long for. Try hard to do what is right. Have faith, love and peace. Do these things together with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with arguing. It is dumb and foolish. You know it only leads to fights. 24 Anyone who serves the Lord must not be hard to get along with. Instead, they must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach. The one who serves must not hold anything against anyone. 25 They must gently teach those who are against them. Maybe God will give a change of heart to those who are against you. That will lead them to know the truth. 26 Maybe they will come to their senses. Maybe they will escape the devil’s trap. He has taken them as prisoners to do what he wanted.​

Those 'who call on the Lord from a pure heart ... must gently teach those who are against them'. That is not the responsibility of the apostles' apprentices, but it belongs to 'anyone who serves the Lord'.

Acts 17:11 (NIRV) gives a similar message: 'The Berean Jews were very glad to receive Paul’s message. They studied the Scriptures carefully every day. They wanted to see if what Paul said was true. So they were more noble than the Thessalonian Jews'.

It is the responsibility of all Christians 'who call on the Lord from a pure heart' to check out what anyone teaches as compared with Scriptures. It is not the responsibility only of leaders and 'experts' in Bible and theology.

Oz
No one is going to be forced into accepting heresy.
I doubt any will ever stand unchallenged.

Even at the "secular Christian" sites where standing against known sin became against the rules it was a bloody mess. Those who stood up for the truth were anything but silent. But the moderating team there wanted their perverted lifestyles more than living a Christian lifestyle...so they silenced those who spoke the truth. They tolerate scriptures these days and not even all scriptures are tolerated. We love the scriptures here. I relish even the "begat" skim over sections.

We are simply looking to get rid of the arguments and be more peaceful.

We aren't going down that other secular road.
 
I don't think THE NEW VISION is asking us to sacrifice anything about correction

I'm not so sure about that. Some of their statements make me question how that's going to work.

I do think that all the gentle kindness in the world gets reduced to meaningless fluff without directly confronting error.

I also recognize that such confrontations have typically been just as ugly as the world full of unbelievers, which defeats the whole purpose of this website's existence.
 
I'm not so sure about that. Some of their statements make me question how that's going to work.

I do think that all the gentle kindness in the world gets reduced to meaningless fluff without directly confronting error.

I also recognize that such confrontations have typically been just as ugly as the world full of unbelievers, which defeats the whole purpose of this website's existence.
What statement in particular?
Here is the tough part for us. We send out notifications we believe are clear and concise, but you really dont know how others are hearing it.

With that in mind, you would help in a really big way to let us know what you heard us say, and then offer some concerns and feedback.
 
What statement in particular?
Here is the tough part for us. We send out notifications we believe are clear and concise, but you really dont know how others are hearing it.

With that in mind, you would help in a really big way to let us know what you heard us say, and then offer some concerns and feedback.

It's impossible to get specific at this point, because the further reformation with new rules in stickies aren't up yet. So at least some of the discussion now is just apprehension; that's reflected in what you quoted me saying here about I question how that's going to work.

De-emphasizing conflict and debate is great! All too often the visible goal is to "win," for the purpose of "yay me." As mortal and corruptible critters, we're all susceptible to those carnal tendencies and getting caught up in them without realizing it. This is why I included a speck of 1 Cor 13, in two different versions that are
as different as I know of.

OzSpen's post also does a good job of bringing Scripture to bear on the contrast of encouraging one another, without encouraging bad theology, wrong concepts of who God is, etc.

I know that when I do express a stance here, I frequently do so to see what that looks like in black and white and it forces me to struggle with an issue I'm unsure of. When someone challenges my thinking or provides facts I was unaware of, that's a GREAT help to me! This is true whether the topic is Faith, or politics. In fact that just happened with the topic of restoring power to Puerto Rico! Crazy, right? I'd never have that opportunity IRL.

I try not to take offense if I don't like their style, but it really does help when idea is separated from individual. When I stringently follow those guidelines, sometimes someone still finds offense. It helps when others point out the misunderstanding, because then I'm not stuck just 'blowing my own horn,' and whatever I might say to explain is lent credence. This is "community," which the Church as a whole is trying to build and I very much see as central to the "new vision" here.

Taking a stance for Truth, encouraging one another, while de-emphasizing conflict and debate; (especially endless arguments) all those things can co-exist. That does sound very different from the world I know, and rather like heaven ...
 
A Christian forum should never be a battlefield between brother's and sister in Christ. We have no idea how another learns from scriptures either by believing everything that comes from the pulpit of their labeled church or apart from their church doctrine do they take the time to study on their own. Everyone says the Holy Spirit teaches them, but we see the conflicts of different beliefs.

I've been studying this word from my own living-room for better than 40 years now and will never exhaust what has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles for our understanding. Each of us are on different levels of learning by how we study and how much time we put into it. All our learning needs to come by the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things God wants us to know and Spiritual discernment is needed for what others are trying to teach us.

If we are uncertain about something then just say "IMO" or "I believe" and let the discussion go from there. My pet peeve is when another calls one a liar and a heretic or you don't know what you are talking about as you are wrong or an idiot. I've been corrected a few times in here by others that had a better knowledge than I and I greatly appreciate that as that is how we grow in truth when we can share and discuss, not fight and debate each other. The Bible is to be studied as we pray first and seek the Holy Spirit that teaches us as we read and also by others that truly have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach us. There is one body of Christ universal, but that body should never cause division or be an offense to others as this causes those that are yet of this world who have not received Christ to run even further away from Him. Also, we who are a more mature Christian need to take consideration those who are yet very young in the Lord or have not yet accepted Christ that come into forums that we present a loving, caring nourishing environment that we do not offend anyone. Each one of us will stand individually on that day before the Lord to give an account of those things we said and done while here on this Earth and there will be no excuse before Him.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
 
“Hebrews 10:23-25​
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (ESV)​
This statement by Paul does a wonderful job describing God's desire of us, the Body of Christ and this is where we are feeling led to take this community.”​
paroksysmós – a provocation which literally jabs (cuts) someone so they "must" respond
http://biblehub.com/greek/3948.htm


parakaléō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call") – properly, "make a call" from being "close-up and personal." 3870 /parakaléō ("personally make a call") refers to believers offering up evidence that stands up in God's court.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:11
"Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing." (ESV)

oikodomeó: to restore by building, to rebuild, repair:
 
A Christian forum should never be a battlefield between brother's and sister in Christ. We have no idea how another learns from scriptures either by believing everything that comes from the pulpit of their labeled church or apart from their church doctrine do they take the time to study on their own. Everyone says the Holy Spirit teaches them, but we see the conflicts of different beliefs.

I've been studying this word from my own living-room for better than 40 years now and will never exhaust what has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles for our understanding. Each of us are on different levels of learning by how we study and how much time we put into it. All our learning needs to come by the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things God wants us to know and Spiritual discernment is needed for what others are trying to teach us.

If we are uncertain about something then just say "IMO" or "I believe" and let the discussion go from there. My pet peeve is when another calls one a liar and a heretic or you don't know what you are talking about as you are wrong or an idiot. I've been corrected a few times in here by others that had a better knowledge than I and I greatly appreciate that as that is how we grow in truth when we can share and discuss, not fight and debate each other. The Bible is to be studied as we pray first and seek the Holy Spirit that teaches us as we read and also by others that truly have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach us. There is one body of Christ universal, but that body should never cause division or be an offense to others as this causes those that are yet of this world who have not received Christ to run even further away from Him. Also, we who are a more mature Christian need to take consideration those who are yet very young in the Lord or have not yet accepted Christ that come into forums that we present a loving, caring nourishing environment that we do not offend anyone. Each one of us will stand individually on that day before the Lord to give an account of those things we said and done while here on this Earth and there will be no excuse before Him.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Ephesians 6 comes into play here too; (doesn't it always?) We wrestle not with flesh and blood
 
Ephesians 6 comes into play here too; (doesn't it always?) We wrestle not with flesh and blood

I would say that is more about wrestling with the powers of darkness of the world and not wrestling between the brethren who are at times divided for what and how they believe, but yet Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
 
I would say that is more about wrestling with the powers of darkness of the world and not wrestling between the brethren who are at times divided for what and how they believe, but yet Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Yup, that's what Eph 6 is about, applied to our situation
 
Hi Oz,
I think the verses you posted are spot on with the direction we are heading, but it's a lot of work, and your help would be greatly appreciated to move us forward. We cant do it alone.

The only pushback I'm going to give you is in regard to testing the spirit, and teaching with authority. Before you or anyone jumps to false conclusions, I'm asking that you hear me out.

For too long this site has created division chasing real and imagined heresy. Some were real good at correcting false teachings with "Full Authority" and it had become a trend. Monkey see, monkey do.

Can you loose your salvation? Some say yes, some say no. Both speaking with authority, and both void of love. Hop on the crazy train... how about Baptism, Trinity...? The list can go on.

Out of your 7 biblical points, many only know how to implement one of them and they use that to justify their behavior.

SB,

I understand from where you are coming. I think the difficulties you may face are that even though this is an 'online' community, there is no face-to-face contact as in a local church situation.

The verse that reinforces the need to defend the faith through apologetics (1 Peter 3:15 NIRV), states we are to 'do it gently and with respect'.

I will support you 100% on this.

As a member of the church of Christ, I view myself as a restorationist, not a reformist. In short, I look for things in the first and second centuries. One thing I find outside of scripture is the Didache. While I do not hold it in the esteem of Holy Scripture i do see it as a complementary historical reference.

What we see in that document is a huge emphasis on how the church behaves. The way we treat one another as well as others takes up the bulk of their core doctrines. They lay the foundation for Baptism and the Eucharist, but again, they teach how to test the spirits and at its core is through behavior.

It's a long while since I read The Didache (Teaching - of the 12 apostles). You've prompted me to read it again. The first line reads: 'The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations'.

Testing spirits through checking behaviour is akin to what Jesus said, 'You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?' (Matt 7:16 NLT).

You didn't tell me with what you disagreed regarding what I said about the testing of spirits.

The church has lost its direction where we think church is a building we attend and our identity has become rooted more in the sign over the door than in Christ. Example, if we go to "that" church and have all the right answers to the specific doctrines that tear the Church apart, then were justified in our poor behavior. Im a Baptist, I'm a Methodist, I'm a Catholic... our identity has become more of a label to ourselves than that of Christ, and each church speaks in authority against the Body of Christ over doctrines that dont promote unity through behavior, but rather it winks at poor behavior because they got you fighting your brother. Meanwhile, Satan is sitting back laughing at us.

If the first century church is to be restored, I suggest we move away from multi-million $$$ buildings to the house church where the emphasis is:

'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV, emphasis added).

It's not only moving away from the emphasis on buildings, but also TO everyone is a minister and not just a few leaders in the church: 'When you come together, each of you has ...'

When we look at Paul getting in Peter's face, we have to keep in mind that Paul went to Jerusalem after his conversion and learned more about Jesus directly from Peter for what?? 3 years? You can check me on this.

My point is this, Peter and Paul knew each other. They had a healthy relationship. It's kind of like this. I can talk bad about my Mom because she's my Mom and you know what? My Mom will always love me. But dont you dare talk bad about my Mom.

It's about family roots. Peter submitted to Paul not only because Paul was right, but also because they had a healthy relationship.

I don't know how you can get that emphasis in an online forum.

Let's talk about this online community. We get a new member, and before anyone gets to know them, they are getting attacked. 1 of your 7 bullet points gets invoked and the failure to implement the other 6 is justified because they are speaking truth with authority.

Oz, I respect you and I feel as I have gotten to know you a little. Your thought matter to me and I am encouraged by much of what you write.

You are correct in observing what happens to some new members and it is abhorrent. That behaviour towards anyone, especially the new person, should be corrected. However, we both know that trolls can come here to be controversial and disturb the peace.

I am still of the view that the Scriptures teach that anyone should teach and be able to correct - with gentleness:

2 Tim 2:24-25 (NIV, emphasis added): '24 And the Lord’s servant [doulos - bond slave / servant] must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth'.

Also Acts 17:11 (NIV, emphasis added), 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true'.

I have to run off as it's 7.37am Sunday and I have to prepare for a gathering of the local saints.

Oz
 
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