Bible Study New Wine - New Man

[for_his_glory]

John 2:1-11

How can we decipher what is Spiritual or literal when we are studying the Bible? Doesn’t everyone have their own opinions when it comes to studying and can we trust those opinions? Can Gods word be Spiritual and literal at the same time? Only the Holy Spirit can answer these questions when we ask for wisdom and understanding because God is not the author of confusion and wants to reveal all the hidden mysteries of his word to us.

God is Spirit and much of his written word is also Spiritual as much as it is literal. Like man is human in the flesh, but Spiritual through the rebirth or renewal in Gods Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is more Spiritual than literal in many ways as when we read a chapter at a time we can have many different points of views on it, but if we take each chapter and read it word by word and verse by verse then as a whole it brings life to the whole chapter and reveals the importance of the knowledge God wants us to learn and share with others.

The story of Jesus first miracle of turning water into wine is an excellent example of both being a literal and Spiritual teaching as you will see as you study the scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit minister this wonderful event in your life as well as it was revealed to the Disciples being with Jesus on that day of the wedding. When you look for the Spiritual in all of scripture so many new revelations in the word will be revealed to you that you have never seen before and it will be hard to even try and contain your exuberance of the wisdom and understanding you will gain.

 

[Edward]

You are exactly right, Sister. I have learned the same exact things. His word is spiritual, literal and can be figurative at the same time. (depending on the passage). Another thing I've learned is that, when we (I) have a harder time hearing the voice of the Lord within me...it is a sign that I need to read His word more than I have been.

He speaks to us all the time, every day. In many different ways. You have to kind of be tuned in to it to perceive it every time. He speaks to different people in different ways. Ask a thousand different people, you'll get a thousand different answers about how the Lord speaks to them.

About wine...scripture says that new wine can not be put into old wineskins, or the wineskin will burst. That's talking about us. We get saved and expect things to change for us, and the Lord to speak to us and give us revelation and so forth...and many times sit down and begin waiting on God.

God can not pour Himself into us, if we have not died to the flesh. The old wine skin must die before it can be filled anew. This is something that we do ourselves. We kill our old man by beginning to...obey, progress, read the word, and live it. Oh we will fail. We will need His help...but He can't help us with this if we are not making an effort ourselves. If He poured His glory into our old man, we would explode.

If anyone wants to be able to hear the Lord speak to them and is having trouble hearing Him...you need to read His word more.

Many is the time, I had a question. prayed about it, asked Brothers and Sisters, and got no good answer. Then one day, I pick up the scriptures and begin to read it...then a scripture will jump off the page at me. It will answer my question. It will have relevance to my present life and situation...it is these times that the Holy Spirit gives illumination and understanding to us. Our first effort is to read His word though. You keep doing that, then you'll notice that you can hear Him throughout the day speaking directly to you in your heart and mind.

Good topic Sister!

 

[for_his_glory]

Edward, you hit the nail on the head. The Bible is more than just mere words of inspiration, but also instruction for our very soul. Many read the story of the wedding in Cana, but do not see the Spiritual of the wine and the water.

The word marriage represents our relationship with Jesus. We are called the bride of Christ which means when we ask Jesus into our life through as we accept Him as our Lord and Savior we become one in the Spirit that is in Christ and have communion with his life, death and resurrection. We are united with Jesus as one body that has been renewed through the Spirit that is God. We become as a bride to the bridegroom as we are joined together as one.

Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

The word call means that we do not just happen to fall into a relationship with Jesus as we are called of God or predestined before the world began for Gods purpose and grace. Jesus and his disciples were called to the wedding to witness the testimony of Gods power and authority through the miracle of changing water into wine, which was Jesus first miracle. The water and the wine represent the word of God and his Spirit as a renewal of our body and soul through the salvation of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi FHG
I don't like reading commentaries unless I really can't understand something. I like to read parables on my own and learn what God has for me. After all, this is one of the reasons He used parables -- so that persons would have the ability to use them for their best interest and understanding.

The two lessons that stand out the most to me in John 2 is that Mary says to listen to Jesus and do as He tells us.

The second is that the Bridegroom saved the best wine for last when Jesus turned the water into wine. Jesus can turn something ordinary and transparent and without taste into something special and colorful and tasteful (salty, as in Mathew 5).

P.S. And Jesus Himself was saved till last as the New and everlasting Covenant. The best wine was saved till last.
There will be no better "wine" making an appearance!

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG
I don't like reading commentaries unless I really can't understand something. I like to read parables on my own and learn what God has for me. After all, this is one of the reasons He used parables -- so that persons would have the ability to use them for their best interest and understanding.

The two lessons that stand out the most to me in John 2 is that Mary says to listen to Jesus and do as He tells us.

The second is that the Bridegroom saved the best wine for last when Jesus turned the water into wine. Jesus can turn something ordinary and transparent and without taste into something special and colorful and tasteful (salty, as in Mathew 5).

P.S. And Jesus Himself was saved till last as the New and everlasting Covenant. The best wine was saved till last.
There will be no better "wine" making an appearance!

I'm not big on commentaries either as what I write comes to me by the Holy Spirit showing me the literal and the Spiritual meaning of scripture. Not everyone will agree with what I write and teach and in all reality they should not agree, but to search and study the scriptures presented to them and allow the Holy Spirit show them the Spiritual that comes out from the literal as I have done with this topic.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm not big on commentaries either as what I write comes to me by the Holy Spirit showing me the literal and the Spiritual meaning of scripture. Not everyone will agree with what I write and teach and in all reality they should not agree, but to search and study the scriptures presented to them and allow the Holy Spirit show them the Spiritual that comes out from the literal as I have done with this topic.

I use the Commentaries lightly do not believe the continuing revelation ever changes the meaning of the sriptures but does magnify and clarify. But they must be used carefully and comparitively, some of them disagree in essence and much guidence from the Ruah(Holy Spirit) and prayerful seeking are required. Ya'll are doing a Godly method of study, few do!

 

[GodsGrace]

I use the Commentaries lightly do not believe the continuing revelation ever changes the meaning of the sriptures but does magnify and clarify. But they must be used carefully and comparitively, some of them disagree in essence and much guidence from the Ruah(Holy Spirit) and prayerful seeking are required. Ya'll are doing a Godly method of study, few do!

Hi Bill,
Jim posted the didache, which I'm familiar with and like.
What is your feeling on the following:
If there was a question about something, as disagreement let's say,
wouldn't it be smart to check out what those that learned from the Apostles thought and preached? Or do you believe in on-going revelation more? I'm thinking specifically of OSAS and works, which I get a lot of slack on but I tend to believe what the early theologians taught.

 

[for_his_glory]

I use the Commentaries lightly do not believe the continuing revelation ever changes the meaning of the sriptures but does magnify and clarify. But they must be used carefully and comparitively, some of them disagree in essence and much guidence from the Ruah(Holy Spirit) and prayerful seeking are required. Ya'll are doing a Godly method of study, few do!

Everything we read as commentaries of what others write has to be Spiritually discerned whether it lines up with scripture or just someones opinions. When one does not discern then one can be easily mislead.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Bill,
Jim posted the didache, which I'm familiar with and like.
What is your feeling on the following:
If there was a question about something, as disagreement let's say,
wouldn't it be smart to check out what those that learned from the Apostles thought and preached? Or do you believe in on-going revelation more? I'm thinking specifically of OSAS and works, which I get a lot of slack on but I tend to believe what the early theologians taught.

I know you are directing this to Bill, but I don't see where Jim posted the didache in here. The didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) like any other book written by man that list instructions for a particular religion is always controversial as in the parts of disagreements and also needs to be Spiritually discerned within its truths or errors.

 

[ezra]

Hi Bill,
Jim posted the didache, which I'm familiar with and like.
What is your feeling on the following:
If there was a question about something, as disagreement let's say,
wouldn't it be smart to check out what those that learned from the Apostles thought and preached? Or do you believe in on-going revelation more? I'm thinking specifically of OSAS and works, which I get a lot of slack on but I tend to believe what the early theologians taught.

what does the scriptures say ? that is the key

 

[GodsGrace]

I know you are directing this to Bill, but I don't see where Jim posted the didache in here. The didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) like any other book written by man that list instructions for a particular religion is always controversial as in the parts of disagreements and also needs to be Spiritually discerned within its truths or errors.

Sorry FHG, it's on a different thread, but the question stands because we were talking about commentaries and sometimes they will disagree.

As to books being written by man,,,you would consider Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of John, just another man??

Wouldn't you trust what he says more than a preacher ?

 

[GodsGrace]

what does the scriptures say ? that is the key

Please see my post no. 11.
Please answer the same question.

 

[ezra]

Please see my post no. 11.
Please answer the same question.

As to books being written by man,,,you would consider Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of John, just another man??

Wouldn't you trust what he says more than a preacher ?

once again what does scripture have to say. this is how we measure i do not feel for the most any of th above or even a preacher.)that is truly called of God. would mislead on purpose ..is there hirelings that would yes i am sure .there all just men anyone can be prone to error .the Holy Spirit holds our answers they call it a unction that we may know all things . i am a preacher though some might question my ways . but i would never purposely mislead. paul wrote to study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the truth. study out what these folks has to say .. there are many in here i totally disagree with on some doctrine issues . but when it comes to the virgin birth the death burial and Resurrection .along with Jesus ascending up into the clouds. jesus way truth life.. i dont know the exact answer your looking for.. i have been as upfront and honest as i can with you. i never follow another preacher in agreement unless i know the scripture reference he is using... i enjoy listening to a full Gospel pastor on the radio. when i catch him everything he has said has been truth . so at this point i trust his word. is this a good enough explanation ?

 

[GodsGrace]

once again what does scripture have to say. this is how we measure i do not feel for the most any of th above or even a preacher.)that is truly called of God. would mislead on purpose ..is there hirelings that would yes i am sure .there all just men anyone can be prone to error .the Holy Spirit holds our answers they call it a unction that we may know all things . i am a preacher though some might question my ways . but i would never purposely mislead. paul wrote to study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the truth. study out what these folks has to say .. there are many in here i totally disagree with on some doctrine issues . but when it comes to the virgin birth the death burial and Resurrection .along with Jesus ascending up into the clouds. jesus way truth life.. i dont know the exact answer your looking for.. i have been as upfront and honest as i can with you. i never follow another preacher in agreement unless i know the scripture reference he is using... i enjoy listening to a full Gospel pastor on the radio. when i catch him everything he has said has been truth . so at this point i trust his word. is this a good enough explanation ?

Yes of course it is. You've explained your belief and I accept your belief.

OTOH, I also have my beliefs which are biblically based.
The NT had not been put together yet when John was teaching Ignatius. John was teaching Ignatius what Jesus had taught HIM.
I don't know what could be better than that. What you're saying above infers that John did not understand well some teaching of Jesus. Since John wrote 5 book of the N.T. then you are implying that it's the New Testament ITSELF that is not trustworthy.

OR you might be saying that Ignatius misunderstood John and wrote incorrect teachings. This would mean that NO pastor or teacher or theologian could be trusted because if Ignatius got it wrong, imagine those that came hundreds of years after him.

As Johnny Carson would say:
Who do you trust?

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry FHG, it's on a different thread, but the question stands because we were talking about commentaries and sometimes they will disagree.

As to books being written by man,,,you would consider Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of John, just another man??

Wouldn't you trust what he says more than a preacher ?

It doesn't matter who the person is or their position in the church. Apart from the Holy Spirit no one can teach us anything. Just because one is schooled doesn't mean they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Even the disciples had to wait for the indwelling before they were sent out as their carnal minds could not perceive that of the Spiritual that Jesus taught.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Uuuummm! Slept late. The two primary Bibles I use, I consider as being nearly word for word, the second, also from the Hebrew perspective with the original names restored.

I do, much, as Ezra and rely greatly upon the Scripture and what it says. I do stand on the Bible being the Living Word of YHWH but any further revelation must never disagree with the clear Word of YHWH and the comments of the teachers taught by the teachers Yashua taught, should be the most accurate, allowing for man's natural tendency to err, leaving the Word of YHWH, the final athority.

Sneaky, I admit, but true.

 

[for_his_glory]

Uuuummm! Slept late. The two primary Bibles I use, I consider as being nearly word for word, the second, also from the Hebrew perspective with the original names restored.

I do, much, as Ezra and rely greatly upon the Scripture and what it says. I do stand on the Bible being the Living Word of YHWH but any further revelation must never disagree with the clear Word of YHWH and the comments of the teachers taught by the teachers Yashua taught, should be the most accurate, allowing for man's natural tendency to err, leaving the Word of YHWH, the final athority.

Sneaky, I admit, but true.

What comes to mind is:
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

With so many various versions of the new and approved Bibles that are out there and the explanations of why they were written can boggle the mind and cause much confusion within the interpretations taught by others as the wording becomes changed within them. Jesus gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit as He first gave to the disciples and Paul to help us to Spiritually discern that of what is being taught to us.

Just like the new wine and the new man of my OP. Some read John 2:1-11 literally, but others see the Spiritual teaching within the wedding in Cana. The Bible is the living word of God as only the Holy Spirit can reveal the hidden mysteries within it. Revelation is something that comes to us by His Holy Spirit that we had not recognized within His word.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't matter who the person is or their position in the church. Apart from the Holy Spirit no one can teach us anything. Just because one is schooled doesn't mean they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Even the disciples had to wait for the indwelling before they were sent out as their carnal minds could not perceive that of the Spiritual that Jesus taught.

I'll end with this:
If there's a disagreement about something IN THE BIBLE, like for instance eternal security -- a case could be made FOR and AGAINST it, so I go to the early theologians that knew one of the Apostles or someone who knew an apostle and I trust what THEY had to say and believed.

It just seems to me that persons alive in the 1960''s knew a lot more about the death of John Kennedy since they lived through it than those that are reading books about it 60 years later...

John Kennedy's family and friends knew him a whole lot more than anyone writing his biography today.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'll end with this:
If there's a disagreement about something IN THE BIBLE, like for instance eternal security -- a case could be made FOR and AGAINST it, so I go to the early theologians that knew one of the Apostles or someone who knew an apostle and I trust what THEY had to say and believed.

It just seems to me that persons alive in the 1960''s knew a lot more about the death of John Kennedy since they lived through it than those that are reading books about it 60 years later...

John Kennedy's family and friends knew him a whole lot more than anyone writing his biography today.

Why go to the early theologians (church fathers) when we already have the compiling of the writings of the Apostles and the anointing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is the one who teaches us all things. Many clergy have a form of godliness, but deny the power there of, 2 Timothy 3:1-7.

I was nine years old when Kennedy got shot and I learned of his death and the one who shot him by those who witnessed it first hand and wrote about it. It's the same with scripture as we learn from the Prophets and Disciples who were there as God spoke to them giving His words that they spoke and taught others as they were anointed and filled with His Holy Spirit. Even Jesus could not speak anything other than what God gave Him to speak and teach all of us, John 12:49, 50.

Does anyone know everything of that of another, no, not even their own family. They only know that of what they see and hear for themselves. There will always be disagreements in doctrines and cases made for both sides, but yet only one Holy Spirit, not man, that teaches us all truths. How many claim they are taught by the Holy Spirit, but yet teach against what scripture says. Many are actually called and anointed by God to teach us, but to know that they are we need to Spiritualy discern that of what they are teaching, 1 John 4:1-6.

 

[ezra]

Yes of course it is. You've explained your belief and I accept your belief.

OTOH, I also have my beliefs which are biblically based.
The NT had not been put together yet when John was teaching Ignatius. John was teaching Ignatius what Jesus had taught HIM.
I don't know what could be better than that. What you're saying above infers that John did not understand well some teaching of Jesus. Since John wrote 5 book of the N.T. then you are implying that it's the New Testament ITSELF that is not trustworthy.

OR you might be saying that Ignatius misunderstood John and wrote incorrect teachings. This would mean that NO pastor or teacher or theologian could be trusted because if Ignatius got it wrong, imagine those that came hundreds of years after him.

As Johnny Carson would say:
Who do you trust?

i trust scripture none of my post was what i believe see i dont go around following Ignatius said or wrote i use my Bible ..if you dont want to trust a pastor or teacher or theologian ..so be it .its best i refrain from answering your post any more.. your twisting every thing i said..
Ephesians 4:14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,