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Obama decries Quran-burning, violent responses

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He can burn any book he wants to. He can do so to make a statement, same as an artist can immerse a crucifix with an image of Jesus on it in human urine to make a statement.
I know legally he can burn any book he wants to. Heck he can burn the American constitution if he so wishes and it's legal. Legally, I've got no problems with what he did. However, it was clearly an act of hatred - publically burning a symbol that represents a whole group of people - something all Muslims hold sacred. He knew what he was doing, and people died and got angry because of it. That's sin, and we are commanded to flee sin and tempting others.

How is burning a Muslim's holy book going to help their view of Christianity? It's going to drive them away, and that is what we should be most concerned about.

Oh, and that artowrk has already been done, unfortunaely.

Oh, and 9-11 was what got our attention - this is 100% about 9-11.
No, it's not. Well actually it is, but it shouldn't be. This should be about how this has affected the current and future spiritual state of Muslims, and other weaker Christians and agnostics etc, and their view of Christianity and Christians. It should not be about Islamic extremeism, which is just that. The vast majority of Muslims do not believe in this type of terrorism violence. Sure, I know it's in the Quran, but that does not mean they all believe it.
 
I got a good look at Islam when a muslim man murdered a bunch of Jewish girls and when they went to his hometown he was a hero for doing it. One cannot defend Islam, one may find particular muslims who do not want to do violence to anyone, however one would be hard pressed to find very many muslims who would actually condemn a fellow muslim for murder of a non believer in the same way people in this forum are condemning a fellow christian for burning his own copy of their religious book.
 
I got a good look at Islam when a muslim man murdered a bunch of Jewish girls and when they went to his hometown he was a hero for doing it.
No, you got a good look at what some Muslims practice. Not that that is any relevance here.

One cannot defend Islam, one may find particular muslims who do not want to do violence to anyone, however one would be hard pressed to find very many muslims who would actually condemn a fellow muslim for murder of a non believer in the same way people in this forum are condemning a fellow christian for burning his own copy of their religious book.
We should not be defending Islam as holy. However we should not misrespresent Islam. Spreading falsehood that all Muslims are terrorists should be rebuked (I'm not saying you're doing this).

Who Muslims condem should not be the issue in this case. The problem here is the pastor burning the Quran. Sure, it was his copy, but it was done in a public and hateful manner, which provoked more hatred and discredited the church, who should distance themselves from this act, while reaching out to Musllim communities in love. Making Muslims angry is only going to achieve more adversity. Do you not want them to know God?
 
I know legally he can burn any book he wants to. Heck he can burn the American constitution if he so wishes and it's legal. Legally, I've got no problems with what he did. However, it was clearly an act of hatred - publically burning a symbol that represents a whole group of people - something all Muslims hold sacred. He knew what he was doing, and people died and got angry because of it. That's sin, and we are commanded to flee sin and tempting others.

How is burning a Muslim's holy book going to help their view of Christianity? It's going to drive them away, and that is what we should be most concerned about.

Oh, and that artowrk has already been done, unfortunaely.


No, it's not. Well actually it is, but it shouldn't be. This should be about how this has affected the current and future spiritual state of Muslims, and other weaker Christians and agnostics etc, and their view of Christianity and Christians. It should not be about Islamic extremeism, which is just that. The vast majority of Muslims do not believe in this type of terrorism violence. Sure, I know it's in the Quran, but that does not mean they all believe it.

NICK, and all, the americans were too busy to watching tv and entertainment to care when the kobhar towers were hit by muslims or when in 1983 the marines died from a vbied in lebanon, or what of the uss cole, what about the first attempt of the terrorists in 1993 on the towers. our history tells us that we have had to deal with islam.

we deal with libya in late 1700's, the marines got the name leatherneck from the filipino insurection(muslims), blackhawk down done by muslim terrorists.so its not the govt that wasnt aware(they underestimated the threat). the public didnt care. i know about islam since basic training as the vets talked about the iraquis.
 
I'm not going to worry about offending a muslim. They offend me each time I see them insist upon their women wearing the burka, . . . .or stoning one for ______ [fill in the blank]. It i often a disgusting religion and I'm all for people taking a stand against their threats. Hate? Perhaps. . . . . . . . They hate us more.
 
I'm not going to worry about offending a muslim. They offend me each time I see them insist upon their women wearing the burka, . . . .or stoning one for ______ [fill in the blank]. It i often a disgusting religion and I'm all for people taking a stand against their threats. Hate? Perhaps. . . . . . . . They hate us more.
And yet, from a Christian perspective, the Bible tells us not to hate, to not return evil for evil or be overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good.


It is very telling that the Christians involved in this thread who support the pastor in question have neither 1) provided any biblical support for supporting the burning of the Quran, and 2) have not even attempted to address the biblical passages and arguments given that show the burning of the Quran by that pastor was wrong. There is something seriously, seriously wrong with Christianity in the West.
 
I agree that there is often something shaky with Christianity in the West. But the burning of a Koran is not central to that. More central is leaping to judgment of others, thinking we can know and judge their motivation and acts...

Blaming the pastor is sophistry, though at first glance it seems not to be. Jones burns book, people in Afghanistan are slaughtered, looks kind of like cause and effect, so let's blame Jones. The actual murderers often get little blame, seemingly because we decide from our pinnacle of moral and cultural superiority that they are too primitive and barbaric to be responsible. If the imams in Afghanistan had not roused the mob, it wouldn't have happened, but we don't blame the imams. Maybe they are still too "simple and barbaric", so back up a step.

If President Hamid Karzai had not spread the news for his own political purposes, the imams would not have known, but we don't blame Karzai, and he is NOT simple or barbaric. There were also local warlords involved, with a beef against the UN, but we'll ignore them...

If the news media had not taken it up, Karzai would not have known, and we can't very well call news media simple or barbaric. The act of Jones is several steps removed from the murders - do the intervening people bear responsibility? Armchair quarterbacking it after the fact, we can say Jones should have known, but in fact, the action of Karzai, at least, was unpredictable.

What rule are we to draw from this? If I do a thing that is harmless, but will offend someone, is it OK to do it if the person will never find out? How am I to assure myself of this, and how much control over my own behavior do I allow the possible offense of strangers at great distances? How much moral responsibility goes to gossips or news media, much less those inciting violence over my act? What if my act only ~might~ offend someone, what if I don't know for sure? How likely must offense be for my act to be wrong? And what if the offendee doesn't kill somebody, but just cuts their legs off? Or just one hand? Or puts someone in jail, or slaps them, or talks mean to them? A dirty look? Bad thoughts? Where does my responsibility end? It might be hard to think of an act that would never offend anybody anywhere, or a method to keep my otherwise harmless act secret enough from all who might possibly be offended, nor a reasonable way to assess how serious their hypothetical retaliation might be.

No need to look up chapter & verse to say Jesus was never shy about offending the Pharisees. He told them exactly what he thought of them, time and time again, though he knew it would contribute to His death. He may have loved them as individuals, but He felt the truth was more important than their feelings or reaction.

Jesus knew in establishing Christianity that there would be death and torture as a result - to Him, to His apostles and immediate followers, spreading out among peoples and locations. He also knew that murder and cruelty would be done BY Christians in His name, to Jews and others. Should Jesus have stayed anonymous, or not come, to avoid the consequences of Christianity? Sounds kind of silly to say it, but the truth is more important.

Christ calls us to love, and to turn the other cheek, but He also calls us to stand for something, and sacrifice. Early Christians often died for their faith, and in the Middle East, Christians are still doing so - it isn't a faith for wimps. I don't know if Jones felt he was standing up for something very important, it is not for me to judge his intent, but if Jones felt that way, he took responsibility for his act. Not only has Jones been widely mocked and vilified, he has a fatwa out against him of over $2 million. If the murders were predictable, so was the fatwa.
 
NICK, and all, the americans were too busy to watching tv and entertainment to care when the kobhar towers were hit by muslims or when in 1983 the marines died from a vbied in lebanon, or what of the uss cole, what about the first attempt of the terrorists in 1993 on the towers. our history tells us that we have had to deal with islam.

we deal with libya in late 1700's, the marines got the name leatherneck from the filipino insurection(muslims), blackhawk down done by muslim terrorists.so its not the govt that wasnt aware(they underestimated the threat). the public didnt care. i know about islam since basic training as the vets talked about the iraquis.
I never said we sholdn't "deal" with Islamic extremeism. I do support military involvement in Afgahnistan and indirect support for Libya. I never said they shouldn't be "dealt" with. All I said was that insulting the very thing they worship is not going to help matters at all, spiritually and politically.
 
I never said we sholdn't "deal" with Islamic extremeism. I do support military involvement in Afgahnistan and indirect support for Libya. I never said they shouldn't be "dealt" with. All I said was that insulting the very thing they worship is not going to help matters at all, spiritually and politically.
i know that but some here mainly americans that are ignorant of history. think that islam is a "new" threat. its not!!!!and i disagree on libya. why not cuba?why not n.korea? what about darfur? its political in nature and like iraq we should have taken ike's advice never fight a war in the middle east unless provoked.
 
i know that but some here mainly americans that are ignorant of history. think that islam is a "new" threat. its not!!!!and i disagree on libya. why not cuba?why not n.korea? what about darfur? its political in nature and like iraq we should have taken ike's advice never fight a war in the middle east unless provoked.
Actually my main reason for supporting Afgahnistan is for peace in the region, and to equip the Afgahnistan army/police so they can deal with the country themselves. That is what Australian troops are doing over there, as welll as defending a few provinces. My main reason is not to "defeat" Islam, but to contain and minimise Islamic extremism. The missionaries can deal with Islam more effectively by reaching out.

Why Libya and why not North Korea or Zimbabewee? Well I don't think the West, particuarly Australia can involve themselves into every humanitarian crisis in the world, and that's what Libya is - a humanitarian criss, which is why I support the UN supporting peace in the region. Now exactly what that will mean I don't know, but I don't think we can start talking about peace in Libya until Godaffi is removed. Again, let's work on establishing peace via political and military means, and at the same time get some missionaries there to work on their hearts.

Now lets see if we can slide this more on topic :)
 
IMO, . . . "love" is A way to act. . . . . but so is preserving a person's individual rights. If the book is a person's own personal property, it is his/hers to destroy it, if they choose.
I just don't see how this is any kind of appropriate balance between the rights of an individual and a consideration of the interests of the broader world.

I suggest we all know what burning the Koran means - it signifies the desire to destroy all that the Koran stands for. And that's hundreds of millions of human beings. The act is essentially a veiled threat. So while a Koran is obviously "private property", I think it is an over-simplification to assert "this is my Koran so I am free to burn it if I choose".

Very few acts are really private.
 
I just don't see how this is any kind of appropriate balance between the rights of an individual and a consideration of the interests of the broader world.

I suggest we all know what burning the Koran means - it signifies the desire to destroy all that the Koran stands for. And that's hundreds of millions of human beings. The act is essentially a veiled threat. So while a Koran is obviously "private property", I think it is an over-simplification to assert "this is my Koran so I am free to burn it if I choose".

Very few acts are really private.
I very much agree, and nothing is private with God. Sure, you're legally free to burn it, but it doesn't make it right in the eyes of God, which is what should really matter to us.
 
I just don't see how this is any kind of appropriate balance between the rights of an individual and a consideration of the interests of the broader world.

I suggest we all know what burning the Koran means - it signifies the desire to destroy all that the Koran stands for. And that's hundreds of millions of human beings. The act is essentially a veiled threat. So while a Koran is obviously "private property", I think it is an over-simplification to assert "this is my Koran so I am free to burn it if I choose".

Very few acts are really private.
Burning the koran signifies the desire to destroy...hundreds of millions of human beings???
Maybe he was hoping to save hundreds of millions of human beings from an eternity in hell by asserting that it is evil.
 
Burning the koran signifies the desire to destroy...hundreds of millions of human beings???
Maybe he was hoping to save hundreds of millions of human beings from an eternity in hell by asserting that it is evil.
Do you honestly think that burning what Muslims practically worship as a holy book will make them listen to you?

Never mind all the agnst that arises in Muslim communties because of actions like these.
 
Actually my main reason for supporting Afgahnistan is for peace in the region, and to equip the Afgahnistan army/police so they can deal with the country themselves. That is what Australian troops are doing over there, as welll as defending a few provinces. My main reason is not to "defeat" Islam, but to contain and minimise Islamic extremism. The missionaries can deal with Islam more effectively by reaching out.

Why Libya and why not North Korea or Zimbabewee? Well I don't think the West, particuarly Australia can involve themselves into every humanitarian crisis in the world, and that's what Libya is - a humanitarian criss, which is why I support the UN supporting peace in the region. Now exactly what that will mean I don't know, but I don't think we can start talking about peace in Libya until Godaffi is removed. Again, let's work on establishing peace via political and military means, and at the same time get some missionaries there to work on their hearts.

Now lets see if we can slide this more on topic :)
the problem is the fact as old tractor says. we cant be the worlds police and btw Napolean the grandfather of american democracy per se conquered the world thinking that all needed his democracry.

scary if we think like that. not saying that we have or do but.its a civil war. if aussieland has one would you want american troops interfering?
 
Do you honestly think that burning what Muslims practically worship as a holy book will make them listen to you?
Agree. I suggest that people who burn Korans are really doing it because it satisfies some unhealthy psychological need within themselves. It should be obvious that such an act will not make Christianity more appealing to Muslims (or anyone for that matter).
 
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Do you honestly think that burning what Muslims practically worship as a holy book will make them listen to you?
I think "we" (those of us who defend this action) have already made up our minds that Muslims wont' listen to us anyway.

Never mind all the agnst that arises in Muslim communties because of actions like these.
Like I care about what is going on in "Muslim communities".
 
the problem is the fact as old tractor says. we cant be the worlds police and btw Napolean the grandfather of american democracy per se conquered the world thinking that all needed his democracry.

scary if we think like that. not saying that we have or do but.its a civil war. if aussieland has one would you want american troops interfering?
You know by now I'm extremely critical of some American actions by America being the World Police, such as in Iraq, but I believe this is a different senario. My point was that we cannot involve ourselves in every conflict or problem, and sometimes we just have to choose. Let's face it, the Libya one is easy. Rather that than North Korea for sure. But this problem has just started to escalate, so perhaps we can prevent it from getting any worse, but North Korea is already well established. That's what I reckon the UN is thinking at the moment. BTW, I wouldn't support foreign troops on the ground, but I do support the no fly zone and support for the rebels.

Yeah, it's civil war, but it's a humanitarian crisis. Godaffi practically said that he would wage war on an entire city. That's a drastic action and I think deserves international action. There are also reports of Godaffi forces using illegal weapons.

If Australia had a civil war, it depends how bad it got. Perhaps there does become a point where people need to step in.

But we really should stop this off topic nonsense :biggrin

I think "we" (those of us who defend this action) have already made up our minds that Muslims wont' listen to us anyway.


Like I care about what is going on in "Muslim communities".
So we just give up and don't bother?

And there are statistics stated earlier in this thread that many Muslims are listening, daily.
 
i dont see libya that way. i have no trust of the un. they pick and choose what rights to enforce. Iraq had a no fly zone and well we dont have to go there now do we.
 
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