Obama decries Quran-burning, violent responses

[Free]

I didn't come up with this, so don't blame me, i just post it to see what people think:

TEN REASONS TO BURN A KORAN

One

The Koran teaches that Jesus Christ, the Crucified, Risen Son of God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords was NOT the Son of God, nor was he crucified.
This teaching removes the possibility of salvation and eternal life in heaven for all Islam's believers. They face eternal damnation in hell if they do not repent.

Two

The Koran is not what Islam claims it to be. It does not have an eternal origin. It is not recorded in heaven. The Almighty God, Creator of the World, is NOT it's source. It is not holy. It's writings are human in origin, a concoction of old and new teachings.

Three

The Koran's teaching includes Arabian idolatry, paganism, rites and rituals. These are demonic, an ongoing satanic stronghold under which Muslims and the world suffer.

Four

The earliest writings that are known to exist about the Prophet Mohammad were recorded 120 years after his death. All of the Islamic writings (the Koran and the Hadith, the biographies, the traditions and histories) are confused, contradictory and inconsistent. We have no conclusive account about what he said or did. Yet Muslims follow the destructive teachings of Islam without question.

Five

Mohammad's life and message cannot be respected. The first Meccan period of his leadership seems to have been religiously motivated and a search for the truth. But in the second Medina period he was openly corrupt, power hungry, and obsessed with selfish pleasures. These are characteristics that God hates. They also led to political assassinations and massacres which continue to be carried out on a regular basis by his followers today.

Six

Islamic Law is totalitarian in nature. There is no separation of church and state. It is irrational. It is supposedly immutable and cannot be changed. It must be accepted without criticism. It has many similarities to Nazism, Communism and Fascism. It is not compatible with Western Civilization.

Seven

Islam is not compatible with democracy and human rights. The notion of a moral individual capable of making decisions and taking responsibility for them does not exist in Islam. The attitude towards women in Islam as inferior possessions of men has led to countless cases of mistreatment and abuse for which Muslim men receive little or no punishment. This is a direct fruit of the teachings of the Koran.

Eight

A Muslim does not have the right to change his religion. Apostasy is punishable by death.

Nine

Islamic teaching and culture consistently perpetuate an irrational fear and loathing of the West.

Ten

Islam is a weapon of Arab imperialism and Islamic colonialism. Where Islam has or gains political power, Christians, Jews and all non-Muslims suffer persecution and discrimination. This includes murders, rape, imprisonment and the destruction of churches, synagogues, temples and other places of worship.

It does not matter how much one disagrees with Islam or what one thinks of their holy book, there is not a single reason a Christian can give in favor of burning the Quran.

I cannot for the life of me understand how so many in this thread refuse to acknowledge what the Bible clearly states about how Christians are supposed to live and how they are supposed to treat others, even those who oppose them in one way or another. Burning the Quran is un-biblical and a very un-Christian response to Islam.

 

[Sam21]

It does not matter how much one disagrees with Islam or what one thinks of their holy book, there is not a single reason a Christian can give in favor of burning the Quran.

I cannot for the life of me understand how so many in this thread refuse to acknowledge what the Bible clearly states about how Christians are supposed to live and how they are supposed to treat others, even those who oppose them in one way or another. Burning the Quran is un-biblical and a very un-Christian response to Islam.

I think I finally threw my copy of the Koran in the trash(I hope that is alright). Though Jesus would probably not tell a disciple to openly burn a Koran, I am sure that He would tell a disciple to throw it in the city dump, the Koran is an evil book. When we begin to decide what a christian should or should not do concerning the Koran, we need to first recognize and accept that the Koran is an evil book. Do all christians agree that the Koran is an evil book? If we accept the reality that the Koran is evil then the christian man who felt the need to burn one in public takes on a different meaning. I am not saying that the man did the will of God in burning the Koran, however when we accept how evil the Koran is and how much evil has been done by those who follow it, then I can see why the man would do it.

 

[Free]

I think I finally threw my copy of the Koran in the trash(I hope that is alright). Though Jesus would probably not tell a disciple to openly burn a Koran, I am sure that He would tell a disciple to throw it in the city dump, the Koran is an evil book. When we begin to decide what a christian should or should not do concerning the Koran, we need to first recognize and accept that the Koran is an evil book. Do all christians agree that the Koran is an evil book? If we accept the reality that the Koran is evil then the christian man who felt the need to burn one in public takes on a different meaning. I am not saying that the man did the will of God in burning the Koran, however when we accept how evil the Koran is and how much evil has been done by those who follow it, then I can see why the man would do it.

I can't accept why any professing Christian, much less a pastor, would find it acceptable to burn the Quran, regardless of what they think of it. That simply is not the Christian way, the way Christ set out for his followers, and it is very telling that none here have even tried to address these arguments and the verses given to support them.

 

[Hitch]

let me ask my fellow americans. whom are a we at war with islam or radical islam?

LOL So some clown who wants to kill you is a radical but some clown who only wants to wound you is not ? Would a questionaire be helpful? Would you have gotten on the transport if you knew Ackmed had your family held hostage?[/QUOTE]
so i guess we should deport muhammed ali then he converted back in the 69s.

yup i see sadly your heart isnt interesting in winning any muslim to christ. funny my fellow soldiers call that pastor stupid and one of them hates islam with a passion. go figure.

so you automatically assume that all muslims are bad because of a name? what about these? casiq kasem. and paula adbul? hmm both syrians and the former is aka casy kasem.

I cant understand why the MODERATORS allow you to constantly post you stupid charges and never with anything to back them up. Do the pity you or what? I dont care I've had all I'm going to take.

i live by this, if they dont pose a threat i dont start a fight with them, they dont bother me i dont bother them, and for the readers

heres a way to really reach islam from aghanistan and i believe in afghanistan.
and even if not, far more effective then mr.jones.

Afghantv.org, Afghan TV, Afghan Christian Television - Voice of Christ - تلويزيون مسيحيان افغان - آواز &#1

 

[pjt]

I can't accept why any professing Christian, much less a pastor, would find it acceptable to burn the Quran, regardless of what they think of it. That simply is not the Christian way, the way Christ set out for his followers, and it is very telling that none here have even tried to address these arguments and the verses given to support them.

They did much worse in the Old Testament and it greatly pleased God for His people to cleanse the land of its idoltry and impurity 2 Kings 23:1-28, Numbers 33:51-52 "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:" He was calling for the mosques, korans, and all the pagan garbage to be burned!

God was not concerned about embracing their religions and showing His to them love by honoring their gods. God does not call for us to protect, honor, or pander to other gods. God wants His people to have NO part in paganism. A popular catch phrase is "what would Jesus do?" Well, if He saw His people embracing islam and mixing with it, you know He may have picked up a koran and burned it too as a statement to the people of its worth to them. So if anyone wants to pray with pagans, give fluffy, flowery stories of pagans, and to somehow think they can be a witness to them by honoring their holy books that are leading people to hell, go ahead. This brings honor to pagans but not God.

As Christians we are called to be sanctified and holy. We are to separate ourselves from the things of the world. This pastor was making this bold statement. Americans and American Christians more and more are trying to hold hands with muslims to somehow be a witness, but this pastor was saying "wake up! Christianity and islam don`t go hand in hand. This book calls for your head. Keep away from it. It spells trouble for our entire nation." We can argue if he delivered his message in the best way, but I cannot argue with the message he was giving and if that came by burning a koran, so be it. I know my words sound hard hearted and really I am not a hard hearted person at all. It will probably surprise you, but I am actually very soft hearted. But when it comes to truth, truth can be hard. The Words of the Bible are not all soft. The Bible talks about eternal hell. God talks about things He "hates". God says He will take vengence one day. There will be a Judgement Day. God is love, kindness, purity, gentleness, forgiving, merciful, and all the soft wonderful traits we all love about God. But He is also a just God and a God that clearly said "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". He is a jealous God, and He wants our loyalty. This pastor saw God`s people compromising our faith and playing with hot water and he made a very dangerous statement for himself. He could have and still probably will get killed for burning that koran, but he did it for his brethren and countryman`s sake. Why can`t we listen and take heed to his statement? Why can`t we pray for his safety? Why do we have to run to the defense of a false religion and leave our brother out to dry when he risked his life to make this statement on behalf of his brethern?

 

[AKJVReader]

To me it makes sense to put Islam and paganism on the same page since "allah" the god of Islam is actually the name of an ancient moon god that predates Islam! That's why the Islamic countries around the world have the moon on there flags. So like i implied consider Islam to be paganism and see what the Bible says about it. The thing about the Pastor burning the Koran is that there were no words with the action. I think a better message to Muslims would have been about Jesus being the Son of God since the Muslims regard Jesus (they call him Isa) as being only a prophet and so a Muslim needs to know that Jesus is God from the Scriptures and in particular from the prophecies in the Old Testament. The thing that a Christian has to decide is do they support there brother in Christ (this Pastor is a born again Christian i'm assuming) or do they support the Koran. Who is right Pastor vs Koran. Or are they both wrong? I was thinking that it is the media trying to demonize Christianity somehow as being intolerant, or something worse with this story. Why dont the media make public the Words of Jesus from the Bible and debate them? Maybe because the media is controlled by non-Christians though that doesn't stop Christians from listening to the media. Also there is a video on Youtube about Obama saying that he is a Muslim. So if a President can be a Muslim then that is just more support for tolerance of Islam in America. Christians need to be strong and courageous and say no to Shariah Law Islam and yes to the Word of God.

 

[Drew]

understand how so many in this thread refuse to acknowledge what the Bible clearly states about how Christians are supposed to live and how they are supposed to treat others, even those who oppose them in one way or another. Burning the Quran is un-biblical and a very un-Christian response to Islam.

I suggest the reason why people support burning the Koran is this: it satisfies an unhealthy psychological need to demonize "the other". And you are right - the Bible clearly teaches a different way of responding to our enemies than committing an act of symbolic murder - burning the very symbol that defines an entire people.

The content of the Koran is not the issue - the issue is whether we take the challenging "love your enemies" road or get in bed with the world and its "tit for tat" way of dealing with problems.

 

[Drew]

Do all christians agree that the Koran is an evil book?

I have never read it, so I can't comment. Obviously, its a safe bet to say that the Koran does not present the same narrative as the Old and New Testaments. Therefore, in my view, it would not present the "complete truth" about how God's plan of redemption was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

But even calling this book "evil" is needlessly provocative and inflammatory. You know that billions see this book as a symbol of who they are. They will see the phrase "the Koran is evil" as equivalent to an assertion that those who follow it are evil. Why not lay off the language of "good and evil" and simply make the case that it is Jesus Christ who is the very embodiment of God and the hope of all mankind.

 

[Drew]

They did much worse in the Old Testament and it greatly pleased God for His people to cleanse the land of its idoltry and impurity 2 Kings 23:1-28, Numbers 33:51-52 "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:" He was calling for the mosques, korans, and all the pagan garbage to be burned!

Well, that was the Old Testament. God's history is an evolving one, with specific times and contexts - the Bible is not an "index book" of timeless moral teachings. While I will not make the case in this particular post, I think the story of Israel and her dealings with other nations was indeed a special case, and that it is exceedingly dangerous to transport stuff from that time into ours.

When Jesus came into the world, things changed. The Kingdom of God was initiated and a new king was enthroned over the world. Plus, the Law of Moses was retired. So the Bible presents a dynamic and evolving picture of God at work in the world - what was acceptable thousands of years ago may no longer be acceptable.

 

[Sam21]

I have never read it, so I can't comment. Obviously, its a safe bet to say that the Koran does not present the same narrative as the Old and New Testaments. Therefore, in my view, it would not present the "complete truth" about how God's plan of redemption was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

But even calling this book "evil" is needlessly provocative and inflammatory. You know that billions see this book as a symbol of who they are. They will see the phrase "the Koran is evil" as equivalent to an assertion that those who follow it are evil. Why not lay off the language of "good and evil" and simply make the case that it is Jesus Christ who is the very embodiment of God and the hope of all mankind.

Calling something that is evil,evil, is needless and provocative and imflammatory...and also,VERY NECESSARY if you are a christian and not afraid to stand on the side of God. Sorry guy, but you are not going to bring in the kingdom of God by kissing up to the demonic move called Islam,the bible just does not teach that. Jesus taught that things will get worse and worse not better and better as the false teaching of KINGDON NOW teaches.

 

[Sam21]

Well, that was the Old Testament. God's history is an evolving one, with specific times and contexts - the Bible is not an "index book" of timeless moral teachings. While I will not make the case in this particular post, I think the story of Israel and her dealings with other nations was indeed a special case, and that it is exceedingly dangerous to transport stuff from that time into ours.

When Jesus came into the world, things changed. The Kingdom of God was initiated and a new king was enthroned over the world. Plus, the Law of Moses was retired. So the Bible presents a dynamic and evolving picture of God at work in the world - what was acceptable thousands of years ago may no longer be acceptable.

Thats funny, the bible says that when Jesus returns He will totally destroy Islam and every other false way,sounds like God is the same yesterday,today, and forever.

 

[Drew]

The thing that a Christian has to decide is do they support there brother in Christ (this Pastor is a born again Christian i'm assuming) or do they support the Koran. Who is right Pastor vs Koran.

Obviousl, this a false choice - these are not the only alternatives. Another alternative - the correct one I think - is to rebuke this "pastor" for his deeply hurtful action.

Also there is a video on Youtube about Obama saying that he is a Muslim.

And I am sure that there are youtube videos suggesting that the moon landing was faked, or that Jews run all the banks.

 

[Drew]

Thats funny, the bible says that when Jesus returns He will totally destroy Islam and every other false way,sounds like God is the same yesterday,today, and forever.

Please read my post carefully - I never denied that God was "the same yesterday, today, and forever". What I said was that His way of working in the world has changed.

And if God wants to destroy Islam, then leave that to Him. Our job is to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us - not engage in acts of symbolic violence.

 

[Sam21]

Please read my post carefully - I never denied that God was "the same yesterday, today, and forever". What I said was that His way of working in the world has changed.

And if God wants to destroy Islam, then leave that to Him. Our job is to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us - not engage in acts of symbolic violence.

Do you recognize that you are attacking a brother in Christ because he burned a book that was his own property and his to burn if he wished, and you are defending a demonic move of satan to conquer the earth through the false teaching of Islam...so you know where you are?

 

[Drew]

Study Islam for yourself, it was established by the sword and throughout history it has spread through the sword and now by the gun.

Not very convincing. The crusades were violent. Many people do many bad things in the name of many different religions.

Examples of Islam in our time, a young woman was killed by her family because she was raped(nothing done to the man). Another woman was beaten because she showed her elbow in public. A suicide bomber of Muslim faith murdered 15 teenage Jewish girls, in his hometown he was a hero. The list could go on and on, can you see how silly it is to denounce a christian who burns his own copy of the book that teaches people to do such things?

These are just anecdotes. I could just as easily provide examples of people who commit acts of murder and violence in the name of Christianity, or Judaism.

Can you actually support your position - can you show me actual texts from the Koran that exhort Muslims to do these things? Remember - the Bible contains orders from God to commit genocide. Now I happen to believe that these were "necessary evils" that were done in a certain time for a certain purpose. The point being this: if you are going to produce texts from the Koran promoting violence, you need to show how that are not analogous to the Old Testament scenario. Otherwise, the Koran supporter can say that the Bible is no better.

 

[Pizzaguy]

...not that long ago a Jewish man attacked and killed a Muslim, he was tried,found guilty in a Jewish court and sent to prison. Around the same time a Muslim man murdered 15 or 20 Jewish teenage girls. After going to his home town it was found that he was a hero.

In Islam, the murder of Jewish people, even young girls, is a heroic act.

On the other hand, some would call it an act of evil. Because it is. But again, Islam IS evil, so it makes sense that he'd be a hero within an Islamic culture.

 

[Drew]

"anecdote" is a strange word to use for the actual violence and death of the innocent in the name of Islam. I gave three examples of things that have occurred recently because of belief in the Koran, these were not physicos,just people who believed in the Koran, now give me three examples of real christians or Jews who have done something similar(recent).

I am not going to take the time to find three examples - any intelligent reader will, of course, know that there are such people. Let's remember, this is not about me making a claim about Muslims, it is about your claim.

You are not supporting your generalization. Three examples, or even thousands, does not support the strong implication that "most" Muslims behave, or believe, a certain way.

You seem to be missing reality, not that long ago a Jewish man attacked and killed a Muslim, he was tried,found guilty in a Jewish court and sent to prison. Around the same time a Muslim man murdered 15 or 20 Jewish teenage girls. After going to his home town it was found that he was a hero. Study the wars of Islam for a while.

Anecdotes again. Individual cases cannot be the grounds for the kind of broad sweeping generalization you have made.

 

[pjt]

Well, that was the Old Testament. God's history is an evolving one, with specific times and contexts - the Bible is not an "index book" of timeless moral teachings. While I will not make the case in this particular post, I think the story of Israel and her dealings with other nations was indeed a special case, and that it is exceedingly dangerous to transport stuff from that time into ours.

When Jesus came into the world, things changed. The Kingdom of God was initiated and a new king was enthroned over the world. Plus, the Law of Moses was retired. So the Bible presents a dynamic and evolving picture of God at work in the world - what was acceptable thousands of years ago may no longer be acceptable.

Drew, I hate to say this but you may have hit the nail on the head of why we are coming from two totally different perspectives. The core reason may have nothing to do with different interpretations, but it is very possible we are talking about 2 very different God`s. The God and Bible I am talking about are not evolving. And the Kingdom of God did not begin with Jesus. The God and Bible I am talking about, Jesus was right next to God in creation and throughout the OT, in total agreement with all God did and said so when Jesus came, it was not to undue the OT and make a new religion. Everything He did was in complete agreement with the OT because Jesus and God had not changed. When I read the OT, I see the NT. When I read the NT, I see the same God of the OT. But you are saying you see a different or evolved God? If that is the case, then we are definitely talking about different God`s. That`s the bottom line. I don`t mean to cause division, and I don`t mean that as an insult, but that`s just the way it is. You can conclude my beliefs about God and the Bible are wrong. That is fine, I can accept that. But I think you have to agree that we are not talking about the same God if your God is an evolved god or your Bible is an evolving picture of God because the God and Bible I am talking about are neither of these. The God and Bible I am talking about are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, they don`t evolve and change.

 

[Mike]

A note to the active participants in this discussion. Last night, after there was a hiatus of about 6 hours, I quietly went through the last few pages and deleted 10-15 posts where there were off-topic disputes. Calling someone a liar or claiming that someone has called someone else a liar is not productive. I'm not even saying anyone was actually called a liar, but the argument about it continued for some time. I was hoping that the message would be received and participation adjusted.

In the interest of keeping this thread open for discussion, participants should refrain from this kind of discourse. It is the expectation that this thread will continue with the topic being discussed; not other members themselves. If it goes off topic in such a way again, we will likely have no other option than to lock this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I hate to say this but you may have hit the nail on the head of why we are coming from two totally different perspectives. The core reason may have nothing to do with different interpretations, but it is very possible we are talking about 2 very different God`s. The God and Bible I am talking about are not evolving. And the Kingdom of God did not begin with Jesus.

With all due respect, the Bible clearly shows that God that is indeed working out a redemption plan that is evolving and that the Kingdom of God did indeed begin with the work of Jesus.

The fact that God's world is not static cannot be missed:

1. Adam falls - the world changes.

2. God calls Abraham and the nation of Israel to a specific task and role - again evidence that things are not static at all; God is at work in the world;

3. God gives the Jew the Law of Moses - more changes, as the Law of Moses was not always there;

4. God sends Israel into exile - again, things are changing;

5. God then sends Jesus who completes the Israel project and initiates the Kingdom of God. Paul is quite clear - principalities and powers were defeated on the cross. This means that God's world is indeed changing.

And there are many other examples and texts - God most certainly is engaged in a long evolving project of redemption and reclamation that will culminate in the fusing together of heaven and earth (see the end of Revelation).

As for Jesus initiating the Kingdom of God:

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, <SUP class=xref value='(B)'>(B)</SUP>preaching the gospel of God,
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-24231>15</SUP>and saying, "<SUP class=xref value='(C)'>(C)</SUP>The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; <SUP class=xref value='(D)'>(D)</SUP>repent and believe in the gospel."

A clear statement that Jesus sees Himself as initiating the kingdom of God.

Please read my posts carefully - I never said that God evolves. I said that his plan for the world is an evolving one.