Obedient wives

[24Fanatic]

What I'd like to know is , what is the proper Christian method of disciplining a disobedient wife?

Wow...just...wow.

 

[reba]

What I'd like to know is , what is the proper Christian method of disciplining a disobedient wife?

Why by, looking at himself to see where he failed. The same as Adam failed Eve... AND Abe failed Sarah and......

 

[joethemechanic]

Sure you love her. But when she repeatedly disobeys she must be disiplined for the sake of the marriage and for her own good. There has to be a loving Christian way to reassert your headship over her.

I'm not talking physical discipline, I'm thinking something more like taking away privileges or disabling her car.

 

[handy]

Care to share some biblical examples of a Christian man "disciplining" his wife in such ways, Joe?

 

[joethemechanic]

Hey, I really don't know. I'm asking.

Or examples?

Maybe take her cell phone away or remove the computer's harddrive if she is letting idle gossip bring problems into the marriage.

Or taking away all access to money if she has compulsive spending habits.

Anybody got any ideas?

 

[handy]

My idea is that you really need to study what the Bible says about marriage... that God made a wife as a husband's helper, not his slave. The husband is the leader of the home, and his wife is to help him fulfill the roles God has for him as a father, as a member of the community and church and to help him with the everyday things life in a fallen world throws at us.

The reason why you won't find any biblical passages regarding a man disciplining his wife... or examples of it happening... the way we can find biblical passages on parents (both father and mother) disciplining their children or masters (which included both male and female masters) disciplining servants and slaves is because .... there are none.

The reason there are none is because that is not the relationship that God intends for husband and wives to have with each other.

God's roles for husbands are that they are the loving, self-sacrificing provider. God's role for the wives is that we are helpers, willing to set aside our own plans and goals to help our husband fulfill his (submission, not obedience). The two working equally together in our God given roles will become a beautiful example of the church.

I'm curious Joethemechanic... Are you married?

 

[farouk]

My idea is that you really need to study what the Bible says about marriage... that God made a wife as a husband's helper, not his slave. The husband is the leader of the home, and his wife is to help him fulfill the roles God has for him as a father, as a member of the community and church and to help him with the everyday things life in a fallen world throws at us.

The reason why you won't find any biblical passages regarding a man disciplining his wife... or examples of it happening... the way we can find biblical passages on parents (both father and mother) disciplining their children or masters (which included both male and female masters) disciplining servants and slaves is because .... there are none.

The reason there are none is because that is not the relationship that God intends for husband and wives to have with each other.

God's roles for husbands are that they are the loving, self-sacrificing provider. God's role for the wives is that we are helpers, willing to set aside our own plans and goals to help our husband fulfill his (submission, not obedience). The two working equally together in our God given roles will become a beautiful example of the church.

I'm curious Joethemechanic... Are you married?

handy:

Wonderful.

You have a way of putting things.

joe: handy's right.

 

[joethemechanic]

God's roles for husbands are that they are the loving, self-sacrificing provider. God's role for the wives is that we are helpers, willing to set aside our own plans and goals to help our husband fulfill his (submission, not obedience). The two working equally together in our God given roles will become a beautiful example of the church.

Yes but despite a person's best efforts they can end up with a spouse who has fallen away from God's intended marital role. And I got to tell you, all the feminist ideology in the world today it is really hard to maintain headship in a marriage.

And no, I've been divorced for 12 years.

And seriously, if you are a Christian, you have to see what the radical feminist ideology has done to the family. It's a terrible thing. As far as I can see, we are in an age that is promoting misandry.

I don't know, maybe where you are in Idaho things are different, but here in Philadelphia the women have an attitude of "If you don't give me what I want, I'll find some other man that will".

And I got to tell you, there is always some guy that will give them what they want, or at least promise that he will. Nobody cares about adultery or divorce here. Most of them could care less about what God wants.

 

[handy]

Well, many husband's fall away from their intended role as well... would you be OK with a wife disciplining him?

Didn't think so...


It's the same here in Idaho... divorce stats that is. And yes, I most certainly see the destruction of the feminist movement.

However, the answer isn't to react in an ungodly way and promote an idea that the Bible doesn't... nowhere do we see God telling men to discipline their wives as if she were a child or servant.

The answer is to keep praying and seeking for a godly wife or to live satisfied as a single man devoting himself to the kingdom.


Also, you might try to curb what is coming off as a total disdain for women... Lose the whole "spirit of Lilith" thing... there is no such thing as a "spirit of Lilith" and once a woman finds out you would ever even use a phrase like that, she most likely won't even try to engage you in any kind of credible conversation... (I know that came up in a different thread, but still...)

 

[joethemechanic]

there is no such thing as a "spirit of Lilith"

I got to tell you, anymore I really believe in demonic possession. It's the only way I can explain some of the self destructive acts I have witnessed.

And Lilith is a true female demon who is mentioned in scripture.

Isaiah 34:14
Common English Bible (CEB)
14 Wildcats will meet hyenas,
the goat demon will call to his friends,
and there Lilith[a] will lurk
and find her resting place.
Footnotes:
Isaiah 34:14 Name of a demon

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Sure you love her. But when she repeatedly disobeys she must be disiplined for the sake of the marriage and for her own good. There has to be a loving Christian way to reassert your headship over her.

I'm not talking physical discipline, I'm thinking something more like taking away privileges or disabling her car.

For real? Are there people seriously that insecure that they need to treat their wife like a child? Will they make her sit in the corner if she doesn't finish her dinner?

Gah, I will never understand men who want a submissive, passive, obedient woman to boost their ego and make them feel like a king. Personally, I demand an equal partner or none at all. I accept that others may not feel that way, but I had no idea that people took it to this extreme.

 

[handy]

I got to tell you, anymore I really believe in demonic possession. It's the only way I can explain some of the self destructive acts I have witnessed.

And Lilith is a true female demon who is mentioned in scripture.

I too believe in demons and demonic possession...

But not of Christian women. Saying that a Christian woman has the "spirit of Lilith" or (as others have done) a "spirit of Jezebel" just because she isn't acting the way some extremely conservative men believe women should act isn't applying the correct biblical definition to what demon possession is.

Now, a woman who goes berserk and kills her husband and children all while spewing blasphemies against God... OK, then I'll consider the "spirit of Lilith".

 

[Nick]

What I'd like to know is , what is the proper Christian method of disciplining a disobedient wife?

None.

When discussing this, I find it important and necessary to go to the Bible. Let's try it.

Let's see what's in Ephesians 5:22-33:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.†32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.​

Nothing about husbands disciplining their wives. In fact, we see that submission and respect for husbands is done by the wives voluntarily and not enforced by the husbands. See verses 22 and 33. The role of the husband is seen in verses 25-28 as loving her as Christ loved the church. Nothing about enforcing anything or disciplining a disobedient wife.

Let's try another classic passage, 1 Peter 3:1-7:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you[a] of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.​

Surprise, surprise, it doesn't contradict the Ephesians passage. Again, husbands are not to treat their wives as children, otherwise it would have been said in the role of a husband in verse 7. The role of the wife is respect and to be subject to their husbands, verse 1. And verse 2 says to wives about husbands "when they see your respectful and pure conduct". Wives are to show their husbands their conduct, not to have it enforced by their husbands.

Well I guess there's your answer, straight from the Bible.

 

[Aardverk]

.............. here in Philadelphia the women have an attitude of "If you don't give me what I want, I'll find some other man that will"............Nobody cares about adultery or divorce here..........

My OP was intended to be light hearted. I thought you were also joking to start with Joe but it looks like you are serious.

I have some sympathy with you but this is 2012 and we either have to accept today's (Western) standards or live outside the community. In biblical times it would have been straightforward to punish your adulterous wife by stoning her; the bible repeatedly tells us to do that. That has gradually been removed via whipping, banishing, ostracizing, etc until we get to the 'no-fault' divorces we have today. They can be totally unfair, I don't agree with them, but that is the world we live in. If you really don't like it, you could always try an Islamic country where all sorts of imaginative punishments are available still.

It is a bit unfair to blame feminism Joe. Although you obviously get the idiot feminist fringe, feminism is no more than promoting equality of the sexes. Men are not naturally superior to women or visa versa, we simply have different characteristics.

Superiority has to be accepted by those who would become 'inferior' - otherwise it does not exist.


Lilith, by the way, was the first woman, not Eve. God got rid of Lilith because Adam couldn't stand her. Bearing in mind this is Jewish 'history' - look it up.

 

[for_his_glory]

Joe, it is very hard in today's society as submissiveness has flown out the door in many marriages and has been replaced with the all about me attitude. Before marriage your mate might be all that you were looking for and then after the "I Do's" are said they turn into Satan himself. (been there with my ex as he drastically changed after the I do's, but in my case I left and divorced him because he tried to kill me.)

All you can do is pray for your mate and be that example of Christ in your household as we can not change anyone who does not want to change or even see the need for change. Communication is also a big factor that two need to sit and discuss those things that bother each other and try to come up with a compromise, but do not let your conversation become heated.

My husband and I are both Christians, but at times get on each others nerves and we will sit and make a list of things we do not especially like about the actions of each other and then work on those things. This might not work for everyone like in my last marriage, but years do come with wisdom and this is just something we do to keep harmony in our marriage and our love for each other strong.

 

[Brotherfriend]

It's ironic that some would view any woman dressed in silk and purple and dressing her daughters in scarlet as anything but "virtuous".


I agree. People don't understand what submission means and often view a wife as having the same status of a child or slaves. Submission is different than obedience.

As for the OP...

:biglol That was funny!!!!

Handy
I enjoyed reading your posts and the entirety of this thread. I several spots, you say that submission is different than obedience. While that may or may not be true, I think we can agree that as a totality, God's intention for marriage was to use the institution to make both husband and wife more holy as they participate in their Biblical roles with one another AND God intended a watching world to be able to see marriage and see a reflection of the relationship between Jesus and the church (His bride) in the relationship between a husband and wife. So, a husband's roles, responsibilities, and characteristics in marriage should mirror those of Jesus in His relationship with the church. Likewise, a wife's roles, responsibilities, and characteristics in marriage should mirror those of the church in its relationship with Jesus. One role of the church in that relationship is obedience.

There are legion verses on a call to followers of Christ to obey Him. And many excellent articles can be found and enjoyed. I won't place cites here because I assume the call to obedience for all followers and for the church is beyond the pale.

I am afraid that any interpretation of the Scripture that suggests one role of a wife in marriage is not obedience would result in a marriage that does not fully mirror the relationship marriage was intended to mirror. Instead, it would be just another example of Genesis 3:16 where a wife was desiring the authority given to her husband.

This is not a question of rank or worth. And I agree it is not intended to be slavery.

The husband has large shoes to fill and his decisions and actions in his role should be motivated by the same motivations that Jesus had. Self sacrifice. Love. A desire to save. A desire to glorify. A desire to cherish.

But I believe you're cutting the slice too thin and leaving some important parts out of the concept of a wife's role, and the distinctions you make could lead to something less than the ambassadorship we are called to have in 2 Cor 5:20.

I am grateful you are my sister in Christ.

Please take these words in the gentleness and peace with which they were intended.

Praise the savior.

 

[Brotherfriend]

What I'd like to know is , what is the proper Christian method of disciplining a disobedient wife?

Joe, my brother in Christ,

The answer to the question you posed can best be explained with a bigger question and truth:

Why do bad things happen to good people and why do good things happen to bad people? The answer is because we have free will given to us by God. If good things only happened to good people, and bad things happened every time we were bad, we would not have free will, we would have a coerced will. That's a big theme in the Bible. God wants our voluntary faith, trust, submission, and obedience. When we disobey, He continues to pursue us in love, offering grace.

Want to see a really good example of this model? Read Hosea. Did Hosea discipline his out of control wife? No. He pursued her, loved her, forgave her, and exposed himself to more disobedience, mirroring God's relationship with us.

Your wife has free will to either submit to your authority or not. If she does not do so, you can speak loving truth to her, based in Biblical truth. If it becomes a recurring,unrepentant problem, you can bring other believers alongside you as we are called to do in Matthew 18 to deal with conflict resolution and unrepentant brothers and sisters. But in the end, you must continue to pursue and love and serve and forgive and extend grace to your wife even when she does not fulfill her role. Just as God has told us in Ezekiel that he is withholding punishment and judgment so more can repentant in faith and submit to His lordship, so we are called to do with wives who are not acting in a way that mirrors the church's reaction to Jesus.

So love her. Speak truth to her in a gentle and loving way. Pursue her. Do not forsake her. Forgive her and offer undeserved grace. Involve other believers. But in the end, she has free will. If you coerce submission, there is no glory to God because your relationship will not mirror the relationship between Christ and the church, His bride. The church is never coerced to submit and obey. It is the voluntary surrender that glorifies God and honors Jesus. The same holds true in marriage.

So brother, live with your wife in an understanding way. Read Hosea and emulate him. In doing do, you will emulate HIM, and you will glorify Him in your marriage and become more holy in the process. Give yourself to her. Sacrifice all for her. Love her unconditionally. If she only gets money for a cellphone from you when she obeys, that is conditional love. It is also something different than God intended.

If you love a woman radically like this, she will come around.

Please accept this as a message of brotherly love.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

First, I'm amazed at the reaction to Joe's suggestion that a wife could potentially be disobedient to the directives God has given us regarding marriage. We seem to have no problem believing the man can be disobedient, but suggest a wife could also, and look at the previous posts to see the pique that is aroused!

Let me make perfectly clear, I'm not saying either person should be subject to discipline by the other. Personal bias in the situation is going to prevent objectivity, which could lead to a rational decision. That is what marriage counselors are for, preferably one with a Christian perspective. Look folks, Christ gave us a method for church discipline for a reason. It is because Christians become disobedient. When that happens in a marriage, it is going to be necessary for a qualified third party to help them sort it out.

Lastly, if we're going to quote from Ephesians, let's not forget this verse: "and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." (Ephesians 5:21) Unfortunately, that verse gets left out of the quotations of the marital passages, but it shouldn't be. Yes, it is talking about your spiritual relationship to other Christians and is part of the previous paragraph. And ... ? Is your spouse not "another Christian" who deserves consideration, submission as described in the next paragraph?

It amazes me that everyone gets so defensive about submission and obedience in a marriage, even those who claiim to have no problem with it. At least not until the rubber meets the road. Then, apparently, it becomes a big problem. If it isn't practiced anywhere else in your Christian walk, there is no excuse for it not being practiced in your marriage! I think I'm done here.

 

[President]

First, I'm amazed at the reaction to Joe's suggestion that a wife could potentially be disobedient to the directives God has given us regarding marriage. We seem to have no problem believing the man can be disobedient, but suggest a wife could also, and look at the previous posts to see the pique that is aroused!

Interesting point.

Lastly, if we're going to quote from Ephesians, let's not forget this verse: "and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." (Ephesians 5:21) Unfortunately, that verse gets left out of the quotations of the marital passages, but it shouldn't be. Yes, it is talking about your spiritual relationship to other Christians and is part of the previous paragraph. And ... ? Is your spouse not "another Christian" who deserves consideration, submission as described in the next paragraph?

In my experience that verse doesn't get left out. It gets emphasized a lot and misinterpreted.

Paul says to submit to one another in the fear of Christ. Then he gives specific examples of who is to submit to whom. Wives are to submit to husbands. Slaves are to submit to masters, and children are to obey their parents. He covers the main roles in the household of his day (back when there were household slaves, some of whom believed in Christ and would have heard the epistle read.)

Revelation talks about men killing one another. Does that mean that if one man kills another, his victim always kills him? One man can't stick his sword in another unless that man sticks a sword back in him? I don't think so.

If one believes in 'mutual submission' he should at least acknowledge that the passage really emphasizes wives submitting to husbands and doesn't say anything specific about husbands submitting to wives. Men are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

The Bible also tells wives to submit to their husbands, following the example of Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. It doesn't say anything about husbands obeying wives.

If Paul is secretly telling husbands to submit to their wives, do parents have to submit to their children?

 

[President]

Obedient wives are for insecure guys. God made eve as a helper, not a slave.

Obedient wives are a blessing for men who love God's word who haven't accepted the philosophy of this present evil age.

I love my wife and I want to see my wife conformed to the image of Christ, so I want her to obey what the Lord commands and has instructed through the apostles.