Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[smaller]

THAT is the reason why I see the discussion of such things as OSAS unprofitable, and bordering on creating unnecessary schisms which divide the body of Christ.

If you believe I am in error on that, tell me why, but do not expect me to tell you on which of the side of the fence I stand.

Most believers who adhere to OSAS (I assuredly DO!) have had to roll up their sleeves and study the matters. Few come from that background to start with.

I might even say there is a very certain form of spiritual blindness that is imposed on the subject matter. So, yeah, it's good to meet the subject matter with rigor, if for no other reason. I think not seeing it IS a working of the adversary on believers minds myself. It's the one area that WOULD set aside a LOT of infighting among believers, if we all would LEARN to see each others saved, rather than maybe not.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Where OSAS goes off the rails is when they condemn believers who don't see it that way. I say let them have their potential condemnation if they need it that bad. They'll get over it when they depart the flesh. I know quite a few believers who need to think they might be eternally sunk if they let their hands off the wheel, because they have some real issues going on with sin and they use it to threaten themselves.

So, yeah, I'm OSAS not only for me, but for all believers. Whether they agree or not won't change my sights of them saved, OSAS, regardless. And I do that mostly for my own heart, so I'll admit it's a bit self serving cause I prefer to see Jesus as totally capable for all of us, not just me.

 

[Edward]

I explain it by reading the rest of the scriptures.
If you do search the scriptures, here's what you will find:

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,


5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.


RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.


22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.


1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, becareful that you don't fall!


COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IFYOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.


HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IFWE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.


HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IFTHEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.



12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.


10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IFYOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,


2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.


EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Such a good post...

 

[smaller]

Such a good post...

What tree doesn't get pruned if Christ is attending same? Some people read more into such statements than necessary. Chastisements, rebukes, tribulations-> none equated to loss of eternal life.

The "fact" is that there is not one single scripture in the entirety of the Bible that says any "believer" by name was or is going to lose their salvation. So the position is largely derived without ANY example as a basis. And yes, that is a fact.

But you see dear friends, what we think in our own hearts IS always reflected. And what is reflected in those who condemn other believers? Not very good stuff. Because when anyone does that, they are in fact showing their own hypocrisy stripes.

IF believers want to play the JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION game, they MUST get better at understanding the scriptures. Much better. It's not as most think. It strikes MUCH closer to home than any player cares to peek. Christianity, among ourselves, was turned on it's head, shortly after Paul's departure, and was prophesied, QUITE RIGHTLY by Paul, here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Believers who "don't" spare the flock should maybe check to see who else got in their own door.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh boy. How many of these OSAS vs nonOSAS threads are needed? You want us to stay busy I guess! This thread had best stay civil and polite or else....
We've got our hands full enough with what is already being discussed.

LOL, this is what keeps the forum in business.

 

[Mike S]

That's a wonderful verse.....but I can present 4 interpretations for that verse.
Considering to claim this verse suggest you can loose your salvation....which is in strong contradiction to getting snatched out of Jesus' hand, I would have to think your interpretation is incorrect.

So, Mike S, you posted the verse as if it spoke for itself...how do we know your interpretation is correct considering it contradicts not being snatched from Jesus' hand?

Well, you don't know if my interpretation is correct or not. The point is that it IS interpretation, as is every scripture reading. We have to try to understand every bit of scripture in the context of the entire Bible. It's very misleading to try using any single reading in isolation to make a point in theology. That's why I would never use just the Hebrews reading, nor any of the readings from John's Gospel, to insist that OSAS is either right or wrong. My interpretation - taken from my understanding of the entire Bible - is that someone once saved can, indeed, lose his salvation.

 

[Edward]

What tree doesn't get pruned if Christ is attending same? Some people read more into such statements than necessary. Chastisements, rebukes, tribulations-> none equated to loss of eternal life.

The "fact" is that there is not one single scripture in the entirety of the Bible that says any "believer" by name was or is going to lose their salvation. So the position is largely derived without ANY example as a basis. And yes, that is a fact.

But you see dear friends, what we think in our own hearts IS always reflected. And what is reflected in those who condemn other believers? Not very good stuff. Because when anyone does that, they are in fact showing their own hypocrisy stripes.

IF believers want to play the JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION game, they MUST get better at understanding the scriptures. Much better. It's not as most think. It strikes MUCH closer to home than any player cares to peek. Christianity, among ourselves, was turned on it's head, shortly after Paul's departure, and was prophesied, QUITE RIGHTLY by Paul, here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Believers who "don't" spare the flock should maybe check to see who else got in their own door.

?? Who's condemning believers or standing in judgment of them?"

 

[Jim Parker]

What tree doesn't get pruned if Christ is attending same?

That's not what Jesus said.
Cutting off and pruning were identified as two DIFFERENT acts of God.
Here; read it in modern English (NIV):
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

(1) It is the Father who does the pruning, not Jesus.
(2) Jesus was talking about branches that are "IN HIM." Those are disciples, believers, "saved", etc.
(3) branches (disciples) that DO NOT bear fruit get cut off from the Jesus.
(4) branches that DO bear fruit get pruned (unproductive stuff gets removed) so that they bear even more fruit.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Branches that remain (abide) in Jesus bear much fruit.

Jhn 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Branches that do NOT remain in Jesus (like the ones that got cut off) are gathered up and thrown in the fire. (like, "lake of fire")

iakov

 

[Jim Parker]

I have not seen an answer to being able to be snatched from Jesus' hand.

No one and nothing can forcibly remove anyone from Jesus' hand.
Anyone can make the choice to step opt of His hand.

Jhn 10:27-30 (NIV) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that says a "sheep" will be prevented, by God, from walking away.

What OSAS advocates regularly do is attempt to make the passage say what it does Not say. IT does NOT say that anyone "in Jesus' hand" has been stripped of hisr free will and are prevented by God to ever "turn from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does" (Eze 18:24 NKJV)

iakov

 

[JLB]

I am solidly entrenched on one side of the OSAS debate, but the details of which side are irrelevant. From what WIP posted, there are two things that are apparent on this site, and I might add on other sites which permit the debate of the issue of OSAS:

1) It is a very divisive issue
2) It is an issue for which each side claims Scripture, (to differing degrees)
3) There are posters who will not change their position, who are as entrenched as I am on my side​

Therefore, I ask if it is an exercise in futility, and perhaps a bit delusional to believe that you who do not have the skills or scholarship of the original proponents of the different sides, (NONE of us do) can change the mind of someone on who has dug in his/her heels on their particular side of the fence as you have on your side?

So when the discussion becomes uncivil or impolite, as WIP noted it has done so in the past, who "wins"? Who gets built up if their deeply cherished beliefs are thrashed by another?

Do we dare to think or say that the other person on the different side of the OSAS discussion is a heretic, or not going to heaven? Do we dare say that the blood of Jesus is insufficient for their sins to be atoned for since they are on the different side of the fence?

When we can all admit that for now, "we see through a glass darkly, " but will see clearly when face-to-face with Jesus why should the fact that the verses supporting our side of the fence and the verses that support the person on the other side of the fence come from the same Bible, and that those verses were inspired by the same Holy Spirit to write a perfect representation of what God the Father wanted to be written, then we will cease making enemies of our brother or sister.

THAT is the reason why I see the discussion of such things as OSAS unprofitable, and bordering on creating unnecessary schisms which divide the body of Christ.

If you believe I am in error on that, tell me why, but do not expect me to tell you on which of the side of the fence I stand.

If an unbeliever, then believes, he has become a believer.

If a believer, no longer believes, is he still a believer?

The answer to this question, should be sufficient, to end any misunderstanding by those who teach OSAS.


So, if a believer, no longer believes he then is an un-believer.

Unbeliever's are not promised anything, except hell.

Or, as Peter said, iy would have been better for them to have remained an unbeliever,
to have never known the way of righteousness... 2 Peter 2:20-22



JLB

 

[smaller]

LOL, this is what keeps the forum in business.

If we never questioned anything we'd all still be sitting under some guys overseas who thought they had things all figured out. Sooo not interested in blind leadings.

That's not what Jesus said.
Cutting off and pruning were identified as two DIFFERENT acts of God.
Here; read it in modern English (NIV):
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

(1) It is the Father who does the pruning, not Jesus.
(2) Jesus was talking about branches that are "IN HIM." Those are disciples, believers, "saved", etc.
(3) branches (disciples) that DO NOT bear fruit get cut off from the Jesus.
(4) branches that DO bear fruit get pruned (unproductive stuff gets removed) so that they bear even more fruit.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Branches that remain (abide) in Jesus bear much fruit.

Jhn 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Branches that do NOT remain in Jesus (like the ones that got cut off) are gathered up and thrown in the fire. (like, "lake of fire")

iakov

Already addressed this a few posts back. No need to repeat it.

 

[smaller]

?? Who's condemning believers or standing in judgment of them?"

Everyone who holds "iffy/maybe" salvation. Usually followed by "not me, but God."

Uh, no. The fault lies within the READERS.

 

[smaller]

No one and nothing can forcibly remove anyone from Jesus' hand.
Anyone can make the choice to step opt of His hand.

The epitome of circular logic above aka a logical fallacy.

Surprisingly held without questioning the absurdity of it by quite a few.

Israel found out they could not escape God, not even in UNbelief.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

There is no "escape" from God. No such place exists, PARTICULARLY for Israel and even moreso for believers, even in turning away.

 

[smaller]

Believers, even in a state of sin/unbelief will go to JUDGMENT FIRE of God, period, end of conversation.

There may not be much left of them, when HIS WORK is completed upon their WORKS. But they WILL be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

ALL believers, every last ONE, will be raised, literally, DRAWN to Christ to this judgment. There is NO escape!

But, here is the GOOD NEWS for believers, yes even those who have not escaped by drawing back or REFUSING to hear.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, if a believer, no longer believes he then is an un-believer.

Unbeliever's are not promised anything, except hell.

Or, as Peter said, it would have been better for them to have remained an unbeliever,
to have never known the way of righteousness... 2 Peter 2:20-22

You're being WAY too clear, concise and logical.
How's anybody supposed to argue with that?

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Already addressed this a few posts back. No need to repeat it.

Apparently you didn't understand it the first time so I repeated it for your benefit.
No extra charge.
And, of course, you are free to ignore it again.
Have a nice day!

 

[Sinthesis]

No one and nothing can forcibly remove anyone from Jesus' hand.
Anyone can make the choice to step opt of His hand.

Nice and concise.

 

[Malachi]

That's why I asked....what does being snatched from Jesus' hand mean? I wish someone would address the opening post.

It is *unaddressable* for the simple reason that it is an impossibility (Rom 8:31-39). Believers are *kept* by the power of God: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:5).

Jim said something about simply walking away (stepping out of his hand). That can't happen either because God will not allow it. He will deal with the one who thinks he can simply walk away.

 

[GodsGrace]

Cygnus said: ↑
That's why I asked....what does being snatched from Jesus' hand mean? I wish someone would address the opening post.

Cygnus
I addressed the above in my post no. 15
You could not agree with it, but did you see it?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

It is *unaddressable* for the simple reason that it is an impossibility (Rom 8:31-39). Believers are *kept* by the power of God: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:5).

Jim said something about simply walking away (stepping out of his hand). That can't happen either because God will not allow it. He will deal with the one who thinks he can simply walk away.

Malchi
If I cannot walk away, do I still have free will??

Please explain.

Wondering

 

[Edward]

Everyone who holds "iffy/maybe" salvation. Usually followed by "not me, but God."

Uh, no. The fault lies within the READERS.

That's just weird.