Bible Study Once saved always saved?

[Heidi]

Heide, I thought you said you don't follow theologeans interpretations. It seems you are following OSAS theology.

I am following the bible's theology. Those who have the Holy Spirit in them cannot lost their salvation because "he who is in you is greater than the one in the world." That means that the devil is not stronger than the Holy Spirit, period.

But those who have never received the Holy Spirit are not saved because they don't personally know Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said; "Now this is eternal life; that the know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Jesus said there will be many who hear the word but fall away because they have no root. The root is the holy Spirit. And those with the Holy Spirit, as Jesus says, can not be snactehd out of His or His Father's hand.

Read Romans 8:38-39 and if you believe it, then please tell me how those who have the Holy Spirit in us can be snatched out of Christ's hand. If you think so, then you don't believe Romans 8:38-39. or Christ's words that his true sheep listen to his voice and that "no one can snatch them out of my hand."

 

[Heidi]

The Holy Spirit leads us into good deeds.
The Holy Spirit leads us into good deeds.
The Holy Spirit leads us into good deeds.

That's why they're called the fruits of the Spirit, not the fruits of ourselves. And since "he who is in you is greater than the one in the world," then Christ's true sheep can never be snatched out of his hand. End of story.

 

[gingercat]

Heide,

I have read many, many OSAS theology's explanation and it seems they just putting the verses together conveniently and getting rid of many of the verses.

I would never agree would their interpretation.

Does that mean we are not bodys any more? :

You also seem to follow most of the Calvin's theology.

 

[Heidi]

Heide,

I have read many, many OSAS theology's explanation and it seems they just putting the verses together conveniently and getting rid of many of the verses.

I would never agree would their interpretation.

Does that mean we are not bodys any more? :

You also seem to follow most of the Calvin's theology.

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. Is that correct? Joh says the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. So on what do you base your beliefs? :o

Do you also not agree with Jesus when he said that no one can snatch is true sheep our of his hand?

Do you also not agree with Paul that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God?

If you don't agree with the above verses, then what do you think Jesus died for? :o And how can his death ever be reversed?

 

[lecoop]

Heide,

I have read many, many OSAS theology's explanation and it seems they just putting the verses together conveniently and getting rid of many of the verses.

I would never agree would their interpretation.

Does that mean we are not bodys any more? :

You also seem to follow most of the Calvin's theology.

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. Is that correct? Joh says the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. So on what do you base your beliefs? :o

Do you also not agree with Jesus when he said that no one can snatch is true sheep our of his hand?

Do you also not agree with Paul that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God?

If you don't agree with the above verses, then what do you think Jesus died for? :o And how can his death ever be reversed?

Heidi, your arguments are just plain silly! You are ignoring man's will. We will (choose) to come, and we can will to leave. It is just as simple as that. If God were as an elephant, and Satan were as an ant, it would make no difference, for God will not force us against our will. Do you think God will have someone in heaven that does not want to be there? Do you think we are born again against our will, or that our will is not involved?

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:

Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 8:34
... Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It also works against God:

James 4:4
...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

So if someone hears the gospel and is willing, and puts action to their faith, they will be born again, and the Holy Spirit will come in. However, if their will changes, and they no longer desire to have the Holy Spirit within them, if they go too far, the Holy Spirit will leave, and will NEVER come back. Yes, once the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible for Him to ever come back, and that soul is doomed. If you don't believe this, read Hebrews 6.

Coop

 

[Heidi]

Heide,

I have read many, many OSAS theology's explanation and it seems they just putting the verses together conveniently and getting rid of many of the verses.

I would never agree would their interpretation.

Does that mean we are not bodys any more? :

You also seem to follow most of the Calvin's theology.

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. Is that correct? Joh says the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. So on what do you base your beliefs? :o

Do you also not agree with Jesus when he said that no one can snatch is true sheep our of his hand?

Do you also not agree with Paul that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God?

If you don't agree with the above verses, then what do you think Jesus died for? :o And how can his death ever be reversed?

Heidi, your arguments are just plain silly! You are ignoring man's will. We will (choose) to come, and we can will to leave. It is just as simple as that. If God were as an elephant, and Satan were as an ant, it would make no difference, for God will not force us against our will. Do you think God will have someone in heaven that does not want to be there? Do you think we are born again against our will, or that our will is not involved?

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:

Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 8:34
... Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It also works against God:

James 4:4
...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

So if someone hears the gospel and is willing, and puts action to their faith, they will be born again, and the Holy Spirit will come in. However, if their will changes, and they no longer desire to have the Holy Spirit within them, if they go too far, the Holy Spirit will leave, and will NEVER come back. Yes, once the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible for Him to ever come back, and that soul is doomed. If you don't believe this, read Hebrews 6.

Coop

Do you think that man's will and the devil are stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Whose power do you think is greater? Yours? My aren't you elevating yourself. I bet it feels good to do that. Sorry, but that is the sin of pride which is from the devil.

Paul said; "You, however, are not controlled by sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." you either believe that or you don't. I do.

Sorry but John says "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world." None of us is more powerful than either God or the devil, not even you.

God's power is the strongest in the universe which is why God kicked Satan out of heaven. And that is precisely why Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand."

I am so amazed at the unbelief of Christ's words here. But that's what happens when people get a majority behind them. That's human nature. Humans believe that if they surround themselves with a great number of teachers who say what itching ears want to hear, then that makes them right. Well sorry, but the majority of people in the world believe jesus is a lie or a myth. But that doesn't not make them right.

Only the word of God is the truth and Jesus says; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." and that means no one...unless of course, you believe that Jesus is lying.

So, when you don't understand scripture, instead of changing it to fit your interpretation, then you need to change your interpretation to fit scripture. And I will not alter Christ's words for anyone.

 

[Heidi]

Those who think we can lose our salvation are also saying that it does depend on man's own desire or effort and not God's mercy when Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or efort but on God's mercy."

The truth is in the bible. All you have to do is, as Jesus says, believe it and you will be saved. But there seem to be an awful lot of people on this thread who don't believe the bible so I can see why you doubt your salvation. Faith comes from the Holy Spirit and doubt and fear come from the devil. But the bible says "Love casts out fear." Once you have the love of God in you, that love will cast out your fear. I'll pray for you.

 

[lecoop]

Heide,

I have read many, many OSAS theology's explanation and it seems they just putting the verses together conveniently and getting rid of many of the verses.

I would never agree would their interpretation.

Does that mean we are not bodys any more? :

You also seem to follow most of the Calvin's theology.

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. Is that correct? Joh says the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. So on what do you base your beliefs? :o

Do you also not agree with Jesus when he said that no one can snatch is true sheep our of his hand?

Do you also not agree with Paul that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God?

If you don't agree with the above verses, then what do you think Jesus died for? :o And how can his death ever be reversed?

Heidi, your arguments are just plain silly! You are ignoring man's will. We will (choose) to come, and we can will to leave. It is just as simple as that. If God were as an elephant, and Satan were as an ant, it would make no difference, for God will not force us against our will. Do you think God will have someone in heaven that does not want to be there? Do you think we are born again against our will, or that our will is not involved?

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:

Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 8:34
... Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It also works against God:

James 4:4
...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

So if someone hears the gospel and is willing, and puts action to their faith, they will be born again, and the Holy Spirit will come in. However, if their will changes, and they no longer desire to have the Holy Spirit within them, if they go too far, the Holy Spirit will leave, and will NEVER come back. Yes, once the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible for Him to ever come back, and that soul is doomed. If you don't believe this, read Hebrews 6.

Coop

Do you think that man's will and the devil are stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Whose power do you think is greater? Yours? My aren't you elevating yourself. I bet it feels good to do that. Sorry, but that is the sin of pride which is from the devil.

Paul said; "You, however, are not controlled by sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." you either believe that or you don't. I do.

Sorry but John says "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world." None of us is more powerful than either God or the devil, not even you.

God's power is the strongest in the universe which is why God kicked Satan out of heaven. And that is precisely why Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand."

I am so amazed at the unbelief of Christ's words here. But that's what happens when people get a majority behind them. That's human nature. Humans believe that if they surround themselves with a great number of teachers who say what itching ears want to hear, then that makes them right. Well sorry, but the majority of people in the world believe jesus is a lie or a myth. But that doesn't not make them right.

Only the word of God is the truth and Jesus says; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." and that means no one...unless of course, you believe that Jesus is lying.


Once again, you amaze me. Again I ask you, will God force people into heaven that do not want to be there? Yes, of course He has that power, but if He did, He would cease to be God! God could have forced Adam and prevented him from sinning, but that is not the way God is. In other words, this is not even about how big God is. We all know He is big. But God is not so big and powerful that He will go against His word. he does not force people to come to him. Yes, He has that power, but that is not the kind of God He is. Of course no one could "snatch" us out of God's hand. But if you can read at all, you could read that we can walk out if we want out. It is our choice. Or did you not read Hebrews chapter 6? How could someone "fall away" if God is so powerful? Very easy, they CHOSE to fall away. There is no unbelief of Christ's words here, but on your part, there is lack of understanding of the complete word of God. Once again, God will not force someone to be in heaven, that does not want to be there! God will not force someone to be saved, even though He might have that power. We know that is His will, for he said that "He is not willing that any should perish." So if He is so powerful, why doesn't He just save them? Of course you know the answer, but must want to argue: they must hear the gospel and believe it, and then they must be willing! "Whosoever will may come!" So what if someone is not willing? They will not come! What if someone came, and then decided that sin was more fun? AT that point, they are not willing to come, so they "fall away."

If someone desires to sin, even if the Holy Spirit resides in them, they can sin. If they continue in this sin, while the HS is wooing them back, eventually the day will come that the HS will quite wooing. Hebrews six says that they have "fallen away."


So, when you don't understand scripture, instead of changing it to fit your interpretation, then you need to change your interpretation to fit scripture. And I will not alter Christ's words for anyone.

Very good, Heidi! But you cannot leave any scripture out, which is what you have done.

Heb. 6
For it is impossible ...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance ...

"If they shall fall away," means that it is possible. This does not mean that God's power failed! What it does mean, is that they chose to follow the flesh, rather than the spirit. Your argument fails.

Coop

 

[mutzrein]

Those who think we can lose our salvation are also saying that it does depend on man's own desire or effort and not God's mercy when Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or efort but on God's mercy."

The truth is in the bible. All you have to do is, as Jesus says, believe it and you will be saved. But there seem to be an awful lot of people on this thread who don't believe the bible so I can see why you doubt your salvation. Faith comes from the Holy Spirit and doubt and fear come from the devil. But the bible says "Love casts out fear." Once you have the love of God in you, that love will cast out your fear. I'll pray for you.

Heidi - If Coop's scripture (which of course you must believe since it is scripture) hasn't convinced you then I will come back & challenge you some more.

In the mean time, your quote by Paul does not speak of salvation - it speaks of our spiritual birth. That is why it says it is not dependant on man's desire or effort. It is speaking in the same manner that Jesus spoke of being born again when he said, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And if it was speaking of the security of our salvation why would Paul say in Phillipians, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

I mean to say, if our salvation is assured, why the fear and trembling?

Or perhaps Paul could have said, ". . . brothers, you know your salvation is assured just do the best you can. Remember the parables that Jesus spoke, well it really doesn't matter how much you have to start with, as long as long as you don't bury your talent you'll be OK."

The fact is this is a parable of the kingdom of God. Do you think the servant who buried his talent kept his salvation?

 

[John the Baptist]

Just simple Truth. God created angels, other worlds (plural in Heb.) and mankind perfect. They had all the provisions to MATURE or 'grow up' into perfection as the Godhead wanted & desired and required!! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9 Does one understand this paragraph??
The first created ones had the True Born Again Righteous Covering of Christ before sin entered the universe. (see Revelation 14:6 for the EVERLASTING GOSPEL) Then it was the REQUIREMENT of the Godhead for all of the fallen creation to be Born Again with this True MOTIVE OF AGAPE LOVE. OK so far? This is the MOTIVE for the MATURING PROCESS!
It takes (took) time to mature. It takes testing. (see Hebrews 12:4-8) All the provisions were given for this maturing process. Some are to be safe to save & others will not be. (See Nahum 1:9) But the Total Freedom of choice is left to each & every individual. How many have even been Born Again with the Motive of True Love for the Godhead? Acts 5:32 finds most have not even understood this requirement!

Mankind of today are not seen much different than of heavens rebellion in the original setting. See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 if one really believes the Godhead? We as individuals all will be, or become, set in MATURE Spiritual concrete. Fully mature one way or the other! Genesis 6:3. As all of the pre/flood ones were given an 'final' freewill testing for Eternal 'proof' of which side their maturity was on, so will we today in the end of earths history be given that test. Most of mankind 'claim' to be God followers of some persuasion. And the 666 test will find the truly honest MATURE ones one way or the other.

Yet, all down through life one has proven what their Faith is really made of one way or the other! The saved ones of Hebrews 11:13 had all died 'IN' in the Faith!! And us??? It is that we have came to the END of the road so to speak. Nothing will move us from what 'we' are MATURED in! Read the forums? Does one 'see' any one change in morality? Romans 8:14 finds one 'LED' of the Holy Ghost. Have we reached the point where we are MATURE in one direction or the other? Very soon now we will all know. Yet, if we should die before this testing, we have already died with what the record books below will show.

The very simple Truth of Christ is that "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". Will we do that? Do we LOVE CHRIST? It is a very easy 'sight' for the Universe to know. Check out Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the Word of God that is the Same Truth throughout all of ETERNITY! :fadein:

---John

 

[Heidi]

Those who think we can lose our salvation are also saying that it does depend on man's own desire or effort and not God's mercy when Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or efort but on God's mercy."

The truth is in the bible. All you have to do is, as Jesus says, believe it and you will be saved. But there seem to be an awful lot of people on this thread who don't believe the bible so I can see why you doubt your salvation. Faith comes from the Holy Spirit and doubt and fear come from the devil. But the bible says "Love casts out fear." Once you have the love of God in you, that love will cast out your fear. I'll pray for you.

Heidi - If Coop's scripture (which of course you must believe since it is scripture) hasn't convinced you then I will come back & challenge you some more.

In the mean time, your quote by Paul does not speak of salvation - it speaks of our spiritual birth. That is why it says it is not dependant on man's desire or effort. It is speaking in the same manner that Jesus spoke of being born again when he said, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And if it was speaking of the security of our salvation why would Paul say in Phillipians, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

I mean to say, if our salvation is assured, why the fear and trembling?

Or perhaps Paul could have said, ". . . brothers, you know your salvation is assured just do the best you can. Remember the parables that Jesus spoke, well it really doesn't matter how much you have to start with, as long as long as you don't bury your talent you'll be OK."

The fact is this is a parable of the kingdom of God. Do you think the servant who buried his talent kept his salvation?

Mutzrein, Do you believe Jesus when he said; "First clean the inside of the cup and the outisde will become clean as well"? Or do you think it swas another lie?

Why do you think he said that? Do you not know what "for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks", means?

Being a Christian takes no more work than thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. But people who have no thankfulness for their rescuer have zero idea what their rescuer did for them. And therein lies the problem, not their lack of good deeds. Once people really know what Jesus did for them by suffering and being tortured for our sins, then our cup overflows with thankfulness. But if people could care less what Jesus did, then they, like the Jews, think salvation depends on their own effort. Then as Paul said in Galataions chapter two, Christ did die for nothing!

What to you think rebirth is? :o The bible says we have become a new creation in our rebirth. The old has gone and the new has come. Do you think that is another lie? What do you think the Holy Spirit does for us? Nothing? Do you think your good deeds come from yourself? If so, then you are giving yourself the glory and credit for them and not to Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you also not believe Paul when he said; "You however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit of the Spirit of God lives in you." Apparently not.

It is the Holy Spirit that changes our hearts, not our own wonderful, intelligent divine nature that comes from the human being as so many people would like to believe. Once again, that come from the sin of pride and sadly, there is too much of that in this thread.

 

[Heidi]

The Holy Spirit changes our hearts. But those who think the itty-bitty Holy Spirit is nothing compared to the power of man and the devil are not whorshiping God but themselves. Sorry, but as Paul said in Philippians;

"He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion." Now notice that Paul did not say, humans who began a good work in humans will carry it on to completion. He said He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion. But apparently, most folks on this thread don't know who the He is. So they first have to figure that out before they can understand the next part of the phrase.

But the He is obvious to all who have recived the Holy Spirit because we know who is responsible for the good in us. And it's not ourselves or the tooth fairy.

So Paul makes it quite clear that God, who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion. That is a fact because scripture doesn't lie as so many of you here thinbk is does. So that is why you doubt your salvation because you have no faith in God to being with! Only faith in yourselves.

But unfortunately, man cannot save himself. Only Christ can save us through his blood and the power of the Holy Spirit. And since that doesn't come from ourselves then we cannot lose a salvation that had nothing to do with us in the first place! "'God hardnes whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy." End of story. And if you still want to keep arguiong with the bible, then do it amongst yourselves. I believe every word of it.

 

[gingercat]

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. /quote]


Heide,


You see what I mean by OSAS theology is imcomplete!

As long as we are on this earth we are not perfect and God wants us to have our own will to resist the devil and then He helps us!

We cannot have authomatically sin-free life!

Jas 4:7 "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

 

[Heidi]

So you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the devil. /quote]


Heide,


You see what I mean by OSAS theology is imcomplete!

As long as we are on this earth we are not perfect and God wants us to have our own will to resist the devil and then He helps us!

We cannot have authomatically sin-free life!

Jas 4:7 "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

No I don't, gingercat. I see no faith in you that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" Sorry.

 

[gingercat]

No I don't, gingercat. I see no faith in you that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" Sorry.

I believe I have a lot of faith in Him.

Jesus did not come here to make us lazy and He does the work. He is giving us a lot of responsibilities and we have to work hard for Him. No matter how hard we work we are still imperfect. That's why we need His help.

We have responsibilities to be a good witnesses for Him and that is a enormous task; that's why we need Jesus.

You are right; we need Him to be complete. That's why we cannot boast!

 

[Heidi]

No I don't, gingercat. I see no faith in you that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" Sorry.

I believe I have a lot of faith in Him.

Jesus did not come here to make us lazy and He does the work. He is giving us a lot of responsibilities and we have to work hard for Him. No matter how hard we work we are still imperfect. That's why we need His help.

We have responsibilities to be a good witnesses for Him and that is a enormous task; that's why we need Jesus.

You are right; we need Him to be complete. That's why we cannot boast!

And why would the Holy Spirit inside of us make us lazy? :o

Do you know what Paul meant when he said; "I am compelled to preach the gospel." Who do you think compelled him? The tooth fairy? Or maybe his own wonderful, wise, and intelligent human nature. In that case, what did he need the Holy Spirit for? "Just little help from his friend" and he does the rest? Not according to Christ. "It is the Father living in me that is doing thre work." You either believe him or you don't. But I can't jump inside you and make you believe it, gingercat. Faith is a gift from God so you need to ask God for that kind of faith.

 

[gingercat]

Do you know what Paul meant when he said; "I am compelled to preach the gospel."

He was compelled but he did not have to follow through. We still have to do the work. We have to work hard. That's why Paul said in 2 Tim 4:7 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

We have to run the race until end Heide.

 

[Heidi]

Do you know what Paul meant when he said; "I am compelled to preach the gospel."

He was compelled but he did not have to follow through. We still have to do the work. We have to work hard. That's why Paul said in 2 Tim 4:7 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

We have to run the race until end Heide.

Well I'm sorry that you give yourself the credit for your good deeds, gingercat. That's called the sin of pride. I agree with Jesus that "It is the Father living in me that is doing the work." You don't have to agree with him. I also agree with Paul when he said; "He who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion."

Jesus never took credit for anything good in him. Even when the rich man addressed him as "Good sir", he replied. "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." He didn't have one ounce of pride in him and is the perfect role model for us to follow. And because Jesus didn't glorify himself, God glorified him. So you could learn a lot from Jesus by giving credit to God for the good in you, not to yourself.

 

[gingercat]

Well I'm sorry that you give yourself the credit for your good deeds, /quote]

I don't know how you manage to twist my interpretation.

So you are saying because Paul and other disciples in the New Testament worked so hard they are taking credit for themselves?

Do you know how hard they worked for the Lord?

So you are saying they were working to gain salvation?.

Do you know that only John were not martyered?

Heide, we are not getting anywhere and I don't believe OSAS is of God but of devil. This is my firm postion.

Good day Heide. I am done with this topic with you becasue you keep twist around my comments.

 

[Heidi]

Well I'm sorry that you give yourself the credit for your good deeds, /quote]

I don't know how you manage to twist my interpretation.

So you are saying because Paul and other disciples in the New Testament worked so hard they are taking credit for themselves?

Do you know how hard they worked for the Lord?

So you are saying they were working to gain salvation?.

Do you know that only John were not martyered?

Heide, we are not getting anywhere and I don't believe OSAS is of God but of devil. This is my firm postion.

Good day Heide. I am done with this topic with you becasue you keep twist around my comments.

They worked because of the Holy Spirit in them, gingercat and Paul is the first one to give credit to the Spirit for his actions, not his own will.