One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

Eph 1:13-14 teach about how one is placed "in Christ":
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Additionally, Eph 4:30 clarifies one of the results of being in union with Christ:
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Paul even reiterates this point twice in 2 Cor;
1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Further, consider Rom 6:5 - For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Then v.8 - Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

All of these verses are promises for those who have been placed in union with Christ as a result of believing in Him, per Eph 1:13.

None of these verses have any conditions for these promises for those who are "in Christ".

Some have claimed that certain sins, or more sins, or unrepentant sins will sever this union in Christ, which seems incredulous given the certainty of these promises.

However, note Ro 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

So, what is one result of being "in Him"?
1. Living with Him, per Rom 6:8
2. guaranteeing what is to come (salvation, obviously, or the day of redemption, per Eph 4:30)
3. united with Him in resurrection, per Rom 6:5
4. guaranteeing the redemption of those who are God's possession, per Eph 1:14

What do all of these things refer to? All who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of God's possession for the day of redemption.

Therefore, all who have believed will be redeemed, based on being "in Christ".

 

[atpollard]

I liked and agreed with everything you wrote.
I was just reminded of the importance of believing the right thing ...

James 2:14-19
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. [NIV]

 

[FreeGrace]

I liked and agreed with everything you wrote.
I was just reminded of the importance of believing the right thing ...

James 2:14-19
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. [NIV]

I believe James 2 isn't about salvation, but about how to live your life. Those who have faith need to demonstrate that faith to others.

However, the point of the OP is this:
All of these verses are promises for those who have been placed in union with Christ as a result of believing in Him, per Eph 1:13.

What is clear from Rom 6:5 and 8 is that the guarantee isn't dependent upon anything other than being sealed in Christ.

These verses are a guarantee of being "united with Him" and "will also live with Him".

Or, iow, eternal security for those who have believed in Christ, and have therefore been sealed with the Holy Spirit and are in union with Christ.

 

[JLB]

Eph 1:13-14 teach about how one is placed "in Christ":
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Additionally, Eph 4:30 clarifies one of the results of being in union with Christ:
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Paul even reiterates this point twice in 2 Cor;
1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Further, consider Rom 6:5 - For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Then v.8 - Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

All of these verses are promises for those who have been placed in union with Christ as a result of believing in Him, per Eph 1:13.

None of these verses have any conditions for these promises for those who are "in Christ".

Some have claimed that certain sins, or more sins, or unrepentant sins will sever this union in Christ, which seems incredulous given the certainty of these promises.

However, note Ro 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

So, what is one result of being "in Him"?
1. Living with Him, per Rom 6:8
2. guaranteeing what is to come (salvation, obviously, or the day of redemption, per Eph 4:30)
3. united with Him in resurrection, per Rom 6:5
4. guaranteeing the redemption of those who are God's possession, per Eph 1:14

What do all of these things refer to? All who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of God's possession for the day of redemption.

Therefore, all who have believed will be redeemed, based on being "in Christ".

Amen, these are great scriptures, which encourage us.


There are also some equally great scriptures which correct us, if we should go astray, and turn from the truth.

Those who are "in Him" are called to remain connected to in in relationship as a branch is connected to the vine, from which the "life" of the branch is provided by the vine to whom the branch is connected.

This truth is illustrated by the Lord for us to understand.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6


If, for whatever reason the branch becomes disconnected or removed from the vine, then the branch, no longer has the "life" of the vine being provided to it, in which it will wither and die, be gathered up and cast into the fire and burned.

The Vine represents Jesus Christ.
The branches represent those who are joined to Him in union.
The fire represents the fires of hell.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Perplexing isn't it that God assures us that our salvation is 100% Grace through faith, and that he will loose none ... and is just as clear that we must abide and persevere until the end. Both sides have perfectly reasonable explanations, they just seem mutually exclusive.

I can't shake the feeling that we are missing something.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen, these are great scriptures, which encourage us.

I believe all Scripture is for our encouragement.

2 Tim 3:16,17 -
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

There are also some equally great scriptures which correct us, if we should go astray, and turn from the truth.

Yes, see 2 Tim 3:16

Those who are "in Him" are called to remain connected to in in relationship as a branch is connected to the vine, from which the "life" of the branch is provided by the vine to whom the branch is connected.

This truth is illustrated by the Lord for us to understand.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

The interesting thing about this passage is that there is no mention of loss of salvation. Jesus was speaking of fellowship, which is what "abides in Me" refers to. Because the Bible does NOT teach anywhere that we are in charge of our salvation, and have the ability to lose it for any reason. The issue of abiding refers to fruit production, not salvation, as noted in v.5 in the phrase "He who abides in Me bears much fruit". That's the whole point of abiding; to produce much fruit. Not to keep/hold onto/maintain one's salvation.

In fact, in v.3 Jesus reiterates that the 11 were already saved (clean). See John 13:10
Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." NIV

If, for whatever reason the branch becomes disconnected or removed from the vine, then the branch, no longer has the "life" of the vine being provided to it, in which it will wither and die, be gathered up and cast into the fire and burned.

The Vine represents Jesus Christ.
The branches represent those who are joined to Him in union.
The fire represents the fires of hell.

This is an opinion or assumption that is not warranted in Scripture. The assumption that "fire" by itself and NOT modified by "eternal", such as found in Matt 25:41 or Jude 7, doesn't refer to hell, as shown from 1 Cor 3:14-15
If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

Here we have a clear statement from Scripture about being "burned up" and "suffering loss", YET, "he himself WILL BE SAVED".

However, the whole point of the OP is to show from Scripture that those who have been "united in Christ in His death" or have "died with Christ" WILL BE "united with Him in resurrection" and will "live with Him".

As the OP noted, there are no conditions for those who have died with Christ who will be "united with Him in resurrection" and "live with Him".

IOW, those who have believed, and have thus been united with Him in His death WILL MOST ASSUREDLY be united with Him in resurreciton.

No conditions are given in this passage. To drag John 15 into this passage is just eisegesis. The 2 passages are about 2 very different things. John 15 is about fellowship for the purpose of producing much fruit, while Rom 6:5 and 8 along with Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 are about eternal security of the believer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Perplexing isn't it that God assures us that our salvation is 100% Grace through faith, and that he will loose none ... and is just as clear that we must abide and persevere until the end. Both sides have perfectly reasonable explanations, they just seem mutually exclusive.

I can't shake the feeling that we are missing something.

Yes, what is missing is the PURPOSE for abiding and persevering until the end. John 15 is clear about why the believer is to abide in Christ: to produce much fruit. John 15:4,5. This cannot be about maintaining your own salvation or all the verses about salvation being 100% grace through faith are wrong. Which they aren't wrong.

So,what is missing is purpose. If the purpose is salvation, then the condition is 100% grace through faith. No works.

But if the purpose is fruit production and reward, then we must abide and persevere.

Fruit production: John 15:4,5
Persevering: reward - Col 1:22-23
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. NIV

The phrase "if you continue..." is the condition for being presented holy in His sight.

Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. NIV

Since you've accurately noted that salvation is 100% grace through faith, these verses cannot be speaking of salvation. The point is this:
IF believers DO "work at it with all your heart" they "will receive an inheritance as a reward".

But Rom 5:6 and 8 are clear enough. For those who have believed and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and united with Christ, will be united with Him in resurrection and will live with him.

A very clear statement about eternal security, based solely on the believer's being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[WIP]

I believe James 2 isn't about salvation, but about how to live your life. Those who have faith need to demonstrate that faith to others.

Why do they "need" to demonstrate it to others?

 

[FreeGrace]

Why do they "need" to demonstrate it to others?

Good question! I'll let James answer it.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. NIV

I believe the entire statement should be in quotes, because the statement doesn't make sense where the NIV and other translations end the quote.

When the "someone" says "you have faith; I have deeds", he isn't saying that he doesn't have faith. Which is clear from the rest of what that "someone" says. In fact, it is a challenge to the one that "someone" is speaking to. In the first sentence, the "someone" acknowledges that the other one has faith. So he challenges the other one to "show me your faith without deeds". Which is impossible. How can any believer show their faith to anyone else apart from deeds?

Finally, that "someone" tells the other one that he "will show you my faith by what I do (deeds)".

iow, it's impossible to demonstrate our Christian faith without deeds to show it.

What is the word that easily comes to mind regarding one who is a Christian but doesn't have deeds to demonstrate it? Hypocrite.

In fact, James provides an excellent example of just such a hypocrite in 2:15-16:

15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? NIV

This isn't about whether one is saved or not. There are many many unbelievers in this world who are very generous and do help the needy.

This is about hypocrisy. Saying one thing, but doing another.

 

[FreeGrace]

I need to add another verse to my answer to why believers need to demonstrate their faith.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. NIV

Catholics and some Protestants who believe that salvation can be lost think this verse teaches that God's justification is by both faith and works. But this verse isn't about God's justification. If it was, then James would be in direct contradiction to Paul, who taught that justification is by faith in Rom 3 and 4 and Gal 2 and 3.

The justification in James 2:24 is in reference to the the "eyes of others". Take the example of the hypocrite in 2:15,16. How would any cold and hungry person view someone who said what they said and then did what they did? Clearly, such a hypocrite wouldn't be "justified" in their eyes.

One is only justified in the eyes of others when their actions match their words.

There are a number of verses that supports the idea that James was concerned about how believers live their lives before others.

Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
This verse specifically notes the perspective of others.

Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
This verse directly notes how our lifestyle is acceptable/approved by God and by men.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
Man cannot see the heart; only God can, which is where our faith is. So, by living our our faith, we have an answer for those who take pride in appearance.

2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
This could not be more clear: in the sight of the Lord (for justification) and in the sight of men (for their approval or justification).

Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.

1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Clearly speaking of having a good testimony before others (outside the church-unbelievers), which avoids the charge of hypocrisy.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation
Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.

1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
This is directly linked to James 2:15,16; the example of the believer who told people "be warmed and filled" but didn't do anything to meet their needs. He was a blatant hypocrite. iow, he "loved only with word or tongue", but definitely not "in deed and truth".

 

[JLB]

I believe all Scripture is for our encouragement.

Well then you missed part of it.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

It's also for correction, reproof, doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, so that the believer will learn to conduct himself in righteousness, and not walk in unrighteousness, in which he will be denied access to God's Kingdom, on that Day.

Here is one of many examples:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is an opinion or assumption that is not warranted in Scripture. The assumption that "fire" by itself and NOT modified by "eternal", such as found in Matt 25:41 or Jude 7, doesn't refer to hell, as shown from 1 Cor 3:14-15
If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

Here we have a clear statement from Scripture about being "burned up" and "suffering loss", YET, "he himself WILL BE SAVED".

What is clear, is the warning from Jesus about being removed from being "in Him", in which the one who is removed will be cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

What is just as clear from 1 Corinthians 3:17 is the same warning, which comes from Paul.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17

If the workman's, work is BURNED by fire, the worker will suffer loss, because the people who are burned will be lost.

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I believe all Scripture is for our encouragement."

Well then you missed part of it.

No, I don't think so. This is what followed immediately AFTER saying the above:

"2 Tim 3:16,17 -
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV"

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Yes, that's exactly what I posted. Maybe it was missed by you.

It's also for correction, reproof, doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, so that the believer will learn to conduct himself in righteousness, and not walk in unrighteousness, in which he will be denied access to God's Kingdom, on that Day.

Please provide any verse that denies any believer access to God's Kingdom.

Here is one of many examples:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

There is no mention of denying access to the Kingdom here. It's about not having an inheritance in the Kingdom, which is far different than being denied access to the Kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is clear, is the warning from Jesus about being removed from being "in Him"

Actually, it is very much not clear about being removed from being "in Him". In fact, a number of verses teach (promise) that those who have been placed "in Him" are guaranteed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. NIV

Then Paul further clarifies:
Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. NIV

It's interesting to me that in a verse about ceasing to GRIEVE the Holy Spirit, there is the promise of being sealed for the day of redemption.

It would seem that if a believer could lose salvation, Paul would have added a clear warning here.

Kinda like: "and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or your seal for the day of redemption will be broken", or something like that. Yet, no where in Scripture do we find any such warning.

in which the one who is removed will be cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The problem with this analysis is attempting to conflate a metaphor with literal action. Jesus' words in John 15 are about fruit production, not salvation. So being cut off and cast into the fire has nothing to do with loss of salvation, but loss of service.

What is just as clear from 1 Corinthians 3:17 is the same warning, which comes from Paul.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17

I'm rather surprised your appeal based on this passage, which refutes the notion of losing salvation.

Paul was clear: reward is based on one's work. But that work must survive God's testing (v.13). If the work is burned up, the man "will suffer loss". Loss of what? Reward, clearly from the passage. But note what immediately follows: "but he himself WILL BE SAVED".

So those believers whose works are burned up and will suffer loss of reward are STILL SAVED. Unlike the claims of those who believe that salvation can be lost.

Where do man's works come from? Either of our 2 natures (Gal 5:17). If one's works are produced by the sin nature, they will not be rewarded (1 Cor 3:15). If one's works are produced by the power of God via the Holy Spirit from our new nature, those works will be rewarded 1 Cor 3:14).

1 John 3:9 teaches that one cannot sin from their new nature. It does not teach sinless perfection.

Each believer has a choice as to which nature he/she will obey. Rom 6:12-16.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The issue with being saved is both heart warming with the verses of being saved once and never losing it, but also frightening with the verses above to suggest that we must stay the path or lose our stake in Jesus. The scary part is that we might not even know if we are saved or not. Jesus warns that not everyone who calls Him Lord, is saved, (Mathew 7:21) and that in the time of judgment many will say that they did many holy works such as healing and casting out demons in Jesus's name. Which Jesus will reply that they did this without His authority. Then tells them to begone men of wickedness. (Mathew 7:22). I believe there is even one verse where it looks like a believer turned away, but they are said that this shows that they were never really saved to begin with. (1 John 2:19). (Though looking back that could be a reference to false teachers and antichrists.)

For anyone who has seen their struggles with sin go before them and win them over, as such a struggle from new believers as well as some from fresh temptations from believers who've grown in their faith but eventually grew lax and comfortable in it. For anyone such as these these warnings are very scary indeed.

But I've one issue with it all. God saves us. Before we were called, He calls us and brings us to Him. Some might not be aware of this call except by looking back and seeing their life before finding God and their life after finding God and seeing His hand in it all. The issue I have is not with God saving us, or with the scary proposition of us losing salvation (or having been fooled and never were saved), it's with the discussion of being saved being one that largely stems into the grounds of not following or fulfilling the law and the comandments. After all we are called and encouraged to not just continue in faith but also in our deeds. Several times we are encouraged in this way, from the verses in posts above that say and suggest that faith without works is dead, to other verses that if we love Jesus we will obey His comands. (John 14:15-31). Even to the encouragement that the Holy Spirit will strengthen us, and that if we sin we are still forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice.

These are all part of the points which regard to our following Jesus, and living by faith, and acting on that faith. Yet when any of these topics are approached often I hear the critism that the person teaching these things are teaching the law and it's condemnation as opposed to being saved through grace. Even to the point that the discussion are divided into bible verses that support living by graceful one to argue with , and bible verses that say to live by following Jesus that is argued by the other.

Because how these conversations often go, I want to thank you FreeGrace for not dividing up some scripture to be ignored while proclaiming the verses that support salvation through grave. Instead you've acknowledged those verses with an explaination. That's rare enough that I want to thank you for that explaination. Regardless of salvation we are called to follow Jesus because of our faith in Him, and as part of our love for Him. Our love for Him should not be ignored by not striving to live up to Jesus's teaching and as many of the OT laws that we can learn from and lean on. Nor should we put all our effort into our work yet forget our first love and leave Jesus out of our lives. Neither one should be the way we live and encourage eachother up in. So thank you again for not going in that direction but acknowledging the verses presented with your own explaination.

With some consideration I can't say I agree with your explaination yet. Some scripture is not as easily explained that it is in reference to rewards, such as 1 John 2:3-11, and followed directly by 1 John 2:12-14, which could be it's counter point with regards to salvation. Yet my best explaination so far only relies on considering our salvation with fear and trembling instead of being confidant in our salvation. So it is not a full explaination either. Either way it's been a pleasure reading this thread up to it current point. Thanks to you, JLB, WIP, and Atpollard.

 

[chessman]

my best explaination so far only relies on considering our salvation with fear and trembling instead of being confidant in our salvation.

Why are we supposed to work out our salvation with "fear and tremble"??? Paul tells us why. Because God is at work in us!

Philippians 2:13 (LEB) For the one at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, is God.
​

Paul's not saying be fearful of losing salvation. He's saying be mindful that God Himself is "at work in you" as you work.

He just got through saying to be confident in our salvation!

Philippians 1:3-6 (LEB) I give thanks to my God upon my every remembrance of you, always in my every prayer for all of you, making the prayer with joy, because of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now, convinced of this same thing, that the one who began a good work in you will finish it until the day of Christ Jesus,​

It is God that saves people, not people that saves people.

 

[FreeGrace]

The issue with being saved is both heart warming with the verses of being saved once and never losing it, but also frightening with the verses above to suggest that we must stay the path or lose our stake in Jesus.

Such a view is contradictory. There cannot be verses of never losing salvation and scary verses about losing salvation. Not possible. Only 1 view is biblical.

The scary part is that we might not even know if we are saved or not. Jesus warns that not everyone who calls Him Lord, is saved, (Mathew 7:21) and that in the time of judgment many will say that they did many holy works such as healing and casting out demons in Jesus's name. Which Jesus will reply that they did this without His authority.

The Bible says salvation is by grace through faith, according to Eph 2:8. If one has trusted in Christ for salvation, they are saved, according to the Bible. If one does not know what they believe, then they aren't saved.

Regarding Matt 7:21-23, what was clear is what the crowd were basing their entrance into the kingdom on: their own works. Not the saving work of Jesus. There is no mention of their faith in Christ. There is ample evidence of their faith in what they DID, not what they believed.

Such people are not saved. Which is why Jesus said that He never knew (intimately) them.

Then tells them to begone men of wickedness. (Mathew 7:22).

Any unbeliever who does their works "in the name of Jesus" is being blasphemous. That is wicked.

I believe there is even one verse where it looks like a believer turned away, but they are said that this shows that they were never really saved to begin with. (1 John 2:19).

The verse doesn't say anything about whether they were or were not saved. It could easily be taken as referring to believers who have accepted false doctrines. We have such an example from Scripture in Acts 15:1-5,24, 20:30, 2 Tim 4:3,4, 1 Tim 1:19, and Rom 16:17. All of these verses are in reference to believers who have accepted false teachings.

(Though looking back that could be a reference to false teachers and antichrists.)

Yes.

But I've one issue with it all. God saves us. Before we were called, He calls us and brings us to Him. Some might not be aware of this call except by looking back and seeing their life before finding God and their life after finding God and seeing His hand in it all. The issue I have is not with God saving us, or with the scary proposition of us losing salvation (or having been fooled and never were saved), it's with the discussion of being saved being one that largely stems into the grounds of not following or fulfilling the law and the comandments.

This sounds like your view is that the law and commandments are necessary for salvation. Is that correct?

After all we are called and encouraged to not just continue in faith but also in our deeds. Several times we are encouraged in this way, from the verses in posts above that say and suggest that faith without works is dead, to other verses that if we love Jesus we will obey His comands. (John 14:15-31). Even to the encouragement that the Holy Spirit will strengthen us, and that if we sin we are still forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice.

All of this is true and none of this suggests loss of salvation.

These are all part of the points which regard to our following Jesus, and living by faith, and acting on that faith. Yet when any of these topics are approached often I hear the critism that the person teaching these things are teaching the law and it's condemnation as opposed to being saved through grace.

Is there a conflict with salvation by grace and salvation by the law? I believe so.

Even to the point that the discussion are divided into bible verses that support living by graceful one to argue with , and bible verses that say to live by following Jesus that is argued by the other.

The issue can be resolved easily by knowing that we are saved by grace FOR good works, according to Eph 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV

One either believes or doesn't believe that we are "saved by grace through faith", which "is the gift of God" and "not by works".

Because how these conversations often go, I want to thank you FreeGrace for not dividing up some scripture to be ignored while proclaiming the verses that support salvation through grave. Instead you've acknowledged those verses with an explaination. That's rare enough that I want to thank you for that explaination.

And I'd like to thank you for noticing. I believe that every verse has meaning, and that Scripture cannot and does not contradict any other verse. btw, I do not claim to understand every verse in the Bible. But I can explain every verse or passage that is used for losing salvation.

Regardless of salvation we are called to follow Jesus because of our faith in Him, and as part of our love for Him. Our love for Him should not be ignored by not striving to live up to Jesus's teaching and as many of the OT laws that we can learn from and lean on. Nor should we put all our effort into our work yet forget our first love and leave Jesus out of our lives. Neither one should be the way we live and encourage eachother up in. So thank you again for not going in that direction but acknowledging the verses presented with your own explaination.

I just wish those who believe in loss of salvation would provide explanations for the verses I've presented regarding eternal security.

With some consideration I can't say I agree with your explaination yet.

I understand. No problem. I am encouraged by your objectivity and open mindedness. And I look forward to any questions you might have regarding any of my explanations of verses.

Some scripture is not as easily explained that it is in reference to rewards, such as 1 John 2:3-11, and followed directly by 1 John 2:12-14, which could be it's counter point with regards to salvation. Yet my best explaination so far only relies on considering our salvation with fear and trembling instead of being confidant in our salvation. So it is not a full explaination either. Either way it's been a pleasure reading this thread up to it current point. Thanks to you, JLB, WIP, and Atpollard.

Regarding 1 John 2:3-11, consider that John was writing to believers about fellowship, according to 1:3-6

3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete. 5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. NIV

So I believe that 2:3-11 is about the results of having fellowship.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Such a view is contradictory. There cannot be verses of never losing salvation and scary verses about losing salvation. Not possible. Only 1 view is biblical.

The Bible says salvation is by grace through faith, according to Eph 2:8. If one has trusted in Christ for salvation, they are saved, according to the Bible. If one does not know what they believe, then they aren't saved.

Jesus came as a king, as the LORD's servent, and His Shepard. Yet if we were to consider it before Jesus arrived, who would have imagined that Jesus was not going to restore Israel and defeat the Romans. Who could image it the way it was described in scriptures and make sense of it. There are verses that hint at our actions being held accountable. Some are more then just a hint. In the parables of the kingdom of heaven for instance there's at least one that ends with a person being thrown out into a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Think of the parable of the unforgiving servent.). Yet there are also verses that hint at God's salvation being stable and unwavering. These ones even less like a hint.

Multiple viewpoints try to explain these things, from ones simular to yours that try to explain each time verses speak of consquences, or say that murders, adulterers, and several other sinful people will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That type of explaination says that salvation is not the topic in those verses. And just as you have done give the challenge "give me a verse that says we can lose our salvation." Any verse given is usually explained away or discarded as not meant to be taken literally, or even that it no longer matters we live in a new Covenent.

A second viewpoint is around here to say how we lose our salvation. Simply said we lose it ourselves. By turning away from God we choose to remove ourselves from being saved. This view is emboldened by the free will and predetermined debates.

There are even those who rely on God to save all men, with the conclusion that Jesus came to save all mankind and that no one should perish. To them the parables and the warnings of hell, and the second death are unexplained or ignored because God said Jesus came to save all men, so that's how it's going to be.

I'm sure you've come across your own theories that people have so I don't think I need to give credit for any more theories. However with all of this in mind I've found one thing to reconcile my hopes. Correct understanding is never what is counted as saving us. Instead, we hope on God. Proverbs 3:5-6 being the core of this hope in a nut shell. 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Regarding Matt 7:21-23, what was clear is what the crowd were basing their entrance into the kingdom on: their own works. Not the saving work of Jesus. There is no mention of their faith in Christ. There is ample evidence of their faith in what they DID, not what they believed.

Such people are not saved. Which is why Jesus said that He never knew (intimately) them.

The verses just before in Mathew 7:15-20 talk about false teachers and false prophets. Among them it's compared to a tree of good fruit and of bad fruit. With verse 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.". So no, it's unfortunately not as cut and dry. I wish it was.

Any unbeliever who does their works "in the name of Jesus" is being blasphemous. That is wicked.

No argument there. I've seen too many non believers hold a mocking tone simular to this and try to trip up believer or at least have them struggle over their words. It's when a believer does their works in the name of Jesus that I see great faith in those people. They don't say they are saved by these works, but they do do them, and give credit to God and to Jesus.

This sounds like your view is that the law and commandments are necessary for salvation. Is that correct?

My current view is that to have faith is a big thing. Boiled down Faith and trust are two words that mean the same thing. With faith it starts small, believe that God exists and that we are saved through Jesus. But it doesn't end there. God gave many directions for us to follow, and Jesus was not lax on direction either. If we trust Jesus we will obey what Jesus says. Just like if we trust our dad or mom, we don't need to understand why they are right only that we take their advise and rules and follow them. If we say we have faith in God but then don't follow Him, then what was our faith in? So yes I think following the laws is part of our salvation because I think it is an extension of our faith. Breaking the laws from what I understand is worth keeping an eye on regardless of salvation, because it shows a lack of faith and a lack of love for Jesus. As well as seems to harm our relationship with God, till we repent and seek forgiveness. At worst it could be a sign that you've walked away from God and He let you go (again with the viewpoint that our salvation is partially on our shoulders based on our choices and free will.)

Is there a conflict with salvation by grace and salvation by the law? I believe so.

Regardless of salvation we are called to obey the law and the commandments and lessons from Jesus. That's the largest hurdle I've seen in these discussion is when talking about obeying the laws and teachings the only part of the equasion is that focused on is that I'm teaching the Laws and therefore teaching against being saved by grace. Sometimes salvation might be the heart of the discussion, such as when talking about the fruit we bear. Other times our deeds are talked in a different light. Like what you said with our deeds being how we are rewarded not how we are saved. Simularily I've thought our works are our sign of loving Jesus and Loving God.

The issue can be resolved easily by knowing that we are saved by grace FOR good works, according to Eph 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV

One either believes or doesn't believe that we are "saved by grace through faith", which "is the gift of God" and "not by works".[\QUOTE]

It is a wonder how we are drawn to God. Some people it is easy to see that God draws us and it is His doings. Others it's not as easy from their own life (or at least not yet). But here it is shown for us all. Here and a few other verses. It's by God's grace and by Him drawing us to Him.

And I'd like to thank you for noticing. I believe that every verse has meaning, and that Scripture cannot and does not contradict any other verse. btw, I do not claim to understand every verse in the Bible. But I can explain every verse or passage that is used for losing salvation.


I just wish those who believe in loss of salvation would provide explanations for the verses I've presented regarding eternal security.

I tried my best. I don't have an easy grasp on it though and have fallen back to the point that I need to rely on God's understanding and His judgment. Let Him be my hope. And not let my understanding get in the way.

I understand. No problem. I am encouraged by your objectivity and open mindedness. And I look forward to any questions you might have regarding any of my explanations of verses.

Regarding 1 John 2:3-11, consider that John was writing to believers about fellowship, according to 1:3-6

3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete. 5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. NIV

So I believe that 2:3-11 is about the results of having fellowship.

I'll keep that in mind and think on it. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus came as a king, as the LORD's servent, and His Shepard.

Jesus came the first time as a servant and shepherd. Jesus will come again as King.

Yet if we were to consider it before Jesus arrived, who would have imagined that Jesus was not going to restore Israel and defeat the Romans. Who could image it the way it was described in scriptures and make sense of it.

I learned just a few years ago that the common view among Jewish rabbis what that there were two Messiahs, one a King, and the other, a "lesser" Messiah, who was the servant of the King. They were confused about the OT.

There are verses that hint at our actions being held accountable. Some are more then just a hint.

Scripture is quite clear about everyone being held accountable, no doubt about it.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Rom 14:10-12
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

A second viewpoint is around here to say how we lose our salvation. Simply said we lose it ourselves. By turning away from God we choose to remove ourselves from being saved. This view is emboldened by the free will and predetermined debates.

Such a view has not been shown from Scripture. It is pure conjecture.

There are even those who rely on God to save all men, with the conclusion that Jesus came to save all mankind and that no one should perish. To them the parables and the warnings of hell, and the second death are unexplained or ignored because God said Jesus came to save all men, so that's how it's going to be.

The common thread of all false teachings and doctrines is to ignore certain verses.

I'm sure you've come across your own theories that people have so I don't think I need to give credit for any more theories. However with all of this in mind I've found one thing to reconcile my hopes. Correct understanding is never what is counted as saving us. Instead, we hope on God.

I believe correct understanding is what leads one to believing the truth. But we see from the unbelieving Pharisees themselves that even seeing miracles didn't lead them to believe, even though that was the intent of them.
John 10:37-39
37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Proverbs 3:5-6 being the core of this hope in a nut shell. 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Amen!

The verses just before in Mathew 7:15-20 talk about false teachers and false prophets. Among them it's compared to a tree of good fruit and of bad fruit. With verse 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.". So no, it's unfortunately not as cut and dry. I wish it was.

This is the beginning of the paragraph:
Matt 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

The passage before v.15 is about the wide and narrow way, not false prophets.

My current view is that to have faith is a big thing.

For me, it's the ONLY THING for salvation. Just as Paul answered the jailer:
Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household."

Boiled down Faith and trust are two words that mean the same thing. With faith it starts small, believe that God exists and that we are saved through Jesus. But it doesn't end there. God gave many directions for us to follow, and Jesus was not lax on direction either.

Of course salvation doesn't "end there". Once saved, we are children of God, and He expects obedience. Which He will reward. And for disobedience, like any good parent, He will discipline. Heb 12:5-11

If we trust Jesus we will obey what Jesus says.

This is what the Bible says about obeying Jesus:
John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. "

Breaking the laws from what I understand is worth keeping an eye on regardless of salvation, because it shows a lack of faith and a lack of love for Jesus. As well as seems to harm our relationship with God, till we repent and seek forgiveness.

Yes, this is where the concept of fellowship applies, which seems to be ignored by those who think salvation can be lost.

At worst it could be a sign that you've walked away from God and He let you go (again with the viewpoint that our salvation is partially on our shoulders based on our choices and free will.)

The only problem with this view is that it is contrary to what Jesus promised:
John 10:28-29
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand

For context, those He gives eternal life to are believers. They were saved on the basis of faith, which Jesus described in a metaphor about the sheep gate and entering through it to be saved in John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Regardless of salvation we are called to obey the law and the commandments and lessons from Jesus.

Yes, absolutely.

That's the largest hurdle I've seen in these discussion is when talking about obeying the laws and teachings the only part of the equasion is that focused on is that I'm teaching the Laws and therefore teaching against being saved by grace.

Those who teach that one is saved by obeying the Law are teaching against being saved by grace.

Sometimes salvation might be the heart of the discussion, such as when talking about the fruit we bear.

I don't see salvation as being the heart of the discussion, but rather, our fruit production which is on the basis of being in fellowship with Christ and living in the power of the Holy Spirit. Such a discussion has spiritual growth as the heart.

Other times our deeds are talked in a different light. Like what you said with our deeds being how we are rewarded not how we are saved. Simularily I've thought our works are our sign of loving Jesus and Loving God.

Yes, there are many verses about being rewarded on the basis of our actions.
Eph 6:8
because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

Col 3:23-24
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Rev 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done."

 

[Jim Parker]

None of these verses have any conditions for these promises for those who are "in Christ".

No. None of those verses have any conditions for the promises.
The conditions are found by reading the rest of scripture.
For example, consider the use of the word "if" in the Scriptures.

First; Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that

The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if(in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

It follows logically that is one does NOT “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated demonstrating that there are indeed conditions attached to the promises.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


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