One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"What is the outcome for fulfilling the condition in v.23?"

The result or outcome of continuing in the faith is the continuing of reconciliation with Christ.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Please explain how one would come to this conclusion because the wording doesn't allow such an understanding. What is clear is that "He NOW HAS reconciled you". So reconciliation isn't something that MAY occur. It HAS ALREADY occurred by Christ's death. That is PLAINLY CLEAR from the very words in v.22.

In fact, there is NOTHING about "continuing of reconciliation with Christ". There are no words that support your answer.

But thanks for your answer. It does explain why your understanding of this passage is confused.

The result of continuing in the faith and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is remaining reconciled or joined or connected to Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is just an unsupported claim, an opinion without facts. A huge assumption.

If a woman leaves her husband and commits adultery, then there must be reconciliation, or else there will be divorce.

Moses permitted divorce because of their hard hearts, but in the beginning, this was not so.

So divorce isn't an option with God. Poor analogy.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It is very sad that any believer would be provoked to anger when presented with the truth of what Jesus said."

No, it's how you are responding that is the occasion for provocation that you are guilty of. Don't evade the point.

Since my response is to quote what Jesus said about eternal security, it does seem that those who admit to being "provoked to anger" are just reacting to the truth that Jesus said.

So, if you could be specific, HOW does "my response" cause this "provocation to anger".

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I see nothing about loss of salvation"

What a surprise!!!
Just like you couldn't see what was clearly written every other time it was presented to you.

lol

All I ask is for just ONE verse that plainly mentions loss of salvation/eternal life. Is there even one?

That's what I haven't seen yet.

 

[Jim Parker]

In fact, there is NOTHING about "continuing of reconciliation with Christ". There are no words that support your answer.

There are plenty of such words.
You just pretend they don't say what they do say.

 

[FreeGrace]

There are plenty of such words.
You just pretend they don't say what they do say.

Here's how to support your claim about what Col 1:22-23 says.

Quote the 2 verses and highlight the exact words that would lead someone to understand what you posted in #461:
"The result of continuing in the faith and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is remaining reconciled or joined or connected to Christ Jesus our Lord."

I asked this in #463:
"All I ask is for just ONE verse that plainly mentions loss of salvation/eternal life. Is there even one?

That's what I haven't seen yet."

If this can't be provided, then just say so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's what I haven't seen yet."

Right. You haven't 'seen' it. But it's been posted over and over and over again.
Spiritual truth is seen with spiritual eyes.

 

[JLB]

The issue wasn't whether the soil was "fruitless", but whether they were saved. They were saved.

• “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

The branches "in Him" that do not bear fruit, are removed from Him, and are no longer "in Him".


Please provide a scripture that teaches us those people who are "removed from Him", in which they are no longer "in Him", still have eternal life. That would be the only way OSAS is conceivable.

Eternal life is a gift to those who are "in Him".

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who are no longer "in Him", no longer have the benefit of eternal life that is only found "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.



JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said: ↑
What is the outcome for fulfilling the condition in v.23?

The result or outcome of continuing in the faith is the continuing reconciliation with Christ.


21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

The result of continuing in the faith and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is remaining reconciled or joined or connected to Christ Jesus our Lord.

• That is what reconcile means; To restore a separation or disconnection of union.

If a woman leaves her husband and commits adultery, then there must be reconciliation, or else there will be divorce.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. You haven't 'seen' it. But it's been posted over and over and over again.
Spiritual truth is seen with spiritual eyes.

And this is what Jesus taught:
1. A person HAS (possesses) eternal life WHEN they believe in Him per John 5:24.
2. To those who believe, He gives that gift of eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
3. Therefore, the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to HAVE eternal life.
4. Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23.
5. The gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
6. Therefore, eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
7. Believers are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED per 1 Pet 1:23.
8. Therefore, no one who has been born again can perish.

There are 5 facts with 3 conclusions regarding these points.

The only way to refute these 5 facts is if anyone can provide clearly and plainly worded verses that show the opposite, that eternal life is revokable, or that those who have been born again can perish.

Jesus, Paul and Peter were all on the "same page" regarding eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

The result or outcome of continuing in the faith is the continuing reconciliation with Christ.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

The result of continuing in the faith and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is remaining reconciled or joined or connected to Christ Jesus our Lord.

Except the wording doesn't support the claim about any "continuing being reconciled". In fact, v.21 clearly states that we (believers) HAS reconciled. Done deal. Not some continuing action that requires anything from us.

The claim has not been supported by the verses provided.

If a woman leaves her husband and commits adultery, then there must be reconciliation, or else there will be divorce.

The word in the Greek means "to reconcile completely", and is an aorist tense, passive voice.

This means the believe had already been reconciled, and the passive voice means that this reconciliation was from an outside agent (not from yourself).

So, Greek grammar refutes your claims. Reconciliation is a point in time action produced by God, not effected by ourselves, and not an on-going process by any means from ourselves.

 

[JLB]

See post #469.

Those who are no longer "in Him", no longer have the benefit of eternal life that is only found "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

• “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that doesnot bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

The branches "in Him" that do not bear fruit, are removed from Him, and are no longer "in Him".

Please provide a scripture that teaches us those people who are "removed from Him", in which they are no longer "in Him", still have eternal life. That would be the only way OSAS is conceivable.

Eternal life is a gift to those who are "in Him".

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who are no longer "in Him", no longer have the benefit of eternal life that is only found "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The word in the Greek means "to reconcile completely", and is an aorist tense, passive voice.

This means the believe had already been reconciled, and the passive voice means that this reconciliation was from an outside agent (not from yourself).

So, Greek grammar refutes your claims. Reconciliation is a point in time action produced by God, not effected by ourselves, and not an on-going process by any means from ourselves.

All the claims of Greek grammar or other excuses will not change the reality of a woman who has departed from her husband for an another man, needed to be reconciled or face divorce.

Reconciled is the "re-joining" of that which has been separated.

yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith...


21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23


For those who have been reconciled to Christ, the scripture teaches we must continue in the faith, to remain reconciled.



This is where the idea of faithful comes from.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Except the wording doesn't support the claim about any "continuing being reconciled". In fact, v.21 clearly states that we (believers) HAS reconciled. Done deal. Not some continuing action that requires anything from us.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,
Colossians 1:21-23

Of course the wording supports my claim about continuing to be reconciled, which is to say remain reconciled.

One might say, continue to remain reconciled.

So here's the question.

If a branch is removed from a vine, does it remain reconciled to the vine, though it's union has become disconnected?

The way we are reconciled or become joined to Christ Jesus our Lord is through faith.

...if indeed you continue in the faith,

We are now reconciled, in the present tense, if we continue in the faith.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Exactly.
However, that is what he is claiming.
He has now reconciled us if we continue in the faith.
What Freegrace would have us to believe is we are still reconciled to God, even though we have abandoned the very thing that got us reconciled to God.
Reconciled in the present tense requires faith in the present tense.
This truth is reiterated throughout the New Testament.
Holding fast to that word which was preached to us.
JLB

God has always loved mankind and He always will.
HE calls, urges, cajoles, and pleads with us to be reconciled to Him by repenting and believing.
Reconciliation with God requires action by only one party, man. God's love never changes; it is eternally perfect.
It is man who repents to be reconciled and who can, later, change his mind and go back to his old ways.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

That's throwing away one's salvation.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

"There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See:"
• According to the ‘Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings’ this proverb has been traced back to 1546 (John Heywood), and resembles the Biblical verse Jeremiah 5:21 (‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’). In 1738 it was used by Jonathan Swift in his ‘Polite Conversation’ and is first attested in the United States in the 1713 ‘Works of Thomas Chalkley’. The full saying is: ‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’.
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/abditorium/nonesoblind.htm

Some folk don't want to know.
View attachment 11235

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who are no longer "in Him", no longer have the benefit of eternal life that is only found "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

• “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that doesnot bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

The branches "in Him" that do not bear fruit, are removed from Him, and are no longer "in Him".

Please provide a scripture that teaches us those people who are "removed from Him", in which they are no longer "in Him", still have eternal life. That would be the only way OSAS is conceivable.

Eternal life is a gift to those who are "in Him".

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who are no longer "in Him", no longer have the benefit of eternal life that is only found "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.JLB

And this is what Jesus taught:
1. A person HAS (possesses) eternal life WHEN they believe in Him per John 5:24.
2. To those who believe, He gives that gift of eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
3. Therefore, the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to HAVE eternal life.
4. Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23.
5. The gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
6. Therefore, eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
7. Believers are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED per 1 Pet 1:23.
8. Therefore, no one who has been born again can perish.

There are 5 facts with 3 conclusions regarding these points.

 

[FreeGrace]

And you never will see it because you can't see what you refuse to see.
This is pointless.

I believe it is pointless to deny the fact of eternal security when this is what Jesus taught:

1. A person HAS (possesses) eternal life WHEN they believe in Him per John 5:24.
2. To those who believe, He gives that gift of eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
3. Therefore, the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to HAVE eternal life.
4. Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23.
5. The gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
6. Therefore, eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
7. Believers are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED per 1 Pet 1:23.
8. Therefore, no one who has been born again can perish.

There are 5 facts with 3 conclusions regarding these points.

 

[FreeGrace]

"There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See:"
• According to the ‘Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings’ this proverb has been traced back to 1546 (John Heywood), and resembles the Biblical verse Jeremiah 5:21 (‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’). In 1738 it was used by Jonathan Swift in his ‘Polite Conversation’ and is first attested in the United States in the 1713 ‘Works of Thomas Chalkley’. The full saying is: ‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’.
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/abditorium/nonesoblind.htm

Some folk don't want to know.

Absolutely some folk don't want to know.

This is what they don't want to know:

And this is what Jesus taught:
1. A person HAS (possesses) eternal life WHEN they believe in Him per John 5:24.
2. To those who believe, He gives that gift of eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
3. Therefore, the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to HAVE eternal life.
4. Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23.
5. The gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
6. Therefore, eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
7. Believers are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED per 1 Pet 1:23.
8. Therefore, no one who has been born again can perish.

There are 5 facts with 3 conclusions regarding these points.

 

[Papa Zoom]

atpollard

Esau was a son who gave up his birthright

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and also Papa Zoom 's

OK, here's more. It's taken me a while because I've given it careful thought. I did not simply jump to this position without careful consideration.

So here goes: Is Easu a good example to show that a believer can lose his/her salvation? I say no. Esau was not a believer first and foremost. Esau was sexually immoral. He shunned God’s call for holiness in his life. Esau is described as a godless person with little or no regard for God. Esau rejected his birthright for a worldly comfort. In doing that, he forfeited the blessing of his father.
As one writer put it:

“A believer has already believed in and accepted and received His "birthright" by believing in Christ Jesus, in Whom (independent of anything "meritorious" we do) we "obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for" us (1 Peter 1:4) “

PZ:[Professing Christians who claim to be born again but who live no differently than non-Christians are repeating the godlessness of Esau. Claiming to be saved make you no more saved than claiming to be a fish makes you a fish. ]

God does not contradict himself. He will not say one thing here and then another thing somewhere else. The words of God will harmonize. So obscure verses ought to be understood in light of clean teachings of Scripture.

Hebrews 12: 15-17 isn't clear by any stretch.

gracethroughfaith.com puts it this way:

“2 Cor 1:21-22 is a good example of such a clear promise. “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” Comparing that promise with Hebrews 12:15-17 shows that the writer of Hebrews can’t be talking about losing our salvation. Confirming that, we can start digging and discover the true meaning of the passage."

God makes us stand firm in Christ. He sets HIS seal of ownership upon us. He puts HIS Spirit in our hearts which guarantees what is to come. How then can it also be true that it's possible not to stand firm in Christ, to lose God's seal of ownership, and to have His Spirit, Who is guaranteeing our salvation, put out of us? This makes no sense. You can't both be kept by God and not kept by God. No, if you are saved, God will make you stand. Your life will be different. You will seek HIS will for your life. You will act like a new creature in Christ. If you claim to be a believer but live like an Esau (profane and a fornicator) then you are not in Christ to begin with.

Finally, I am not saying that my argument proves OSAS. Here I am just arguing that the Esau example isn’t showing one can lose their salvation. A better understanding is this: God’s offer of redemption is before you. Don’t throw it away. Don’t trample the pearls underfoot. Don’t reject God in favor of worldly desires. Don’t trade away the eternal for the temporal. This I think is the lesson of Esau.

 

[JLB]

PZ:[Professing Christians who claim to be born again but who live no differently than non-Christians are repeating the godlessness of Esau. Claiming to be saved make you no more saved than claiming to be a fish makes you a fish. ]

• That is true for the example of wheat and tares.
• A tare was called the seed of the wicked one.
• A tare will never be wheat, no matter what it calls itself.

• The parable of the Sower, reveals a different truth.
• The parable of the Sower, concerns the Gospel Message, and the types of heart conditions of those saved, and those not saved.
• The parable of the Sower, concerns unbelievers, who will become believers, and also unbelievers who never believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

• The first group of unbelievers never believed.

Jesus Himself set's the requirement for being saved.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

• The second group is different from the first group, in that they believed.

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Either a person is saved when they believe or not.

If you believe there is more a person must do to be saved, than believe, then please share what is that a person must do, other than believe, to be saved.




JLB