One result of being in union with Christ

[Papa Zoom]

Correct.
A person has God's power as long as they continue to secure that 'keeping by the power of God' through a continuing faith (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)


Correct.
You only get to lose it once.
There is no re-crucifying of Christ allowed.


That is the sure power of God that is secured through our faith.
The weak link is not in God's power and ability to make us firm in Christ.
The weak link is whether or not we will continue to rely on God's power through faith to make us firm in Christ.


These teach us that the matter of whether God can save us through Christ is not the thing in question. The author of Hebrews, especially, teaches us the supremacy of Christ, and that's why we can place our confidence (our faith) in God through Christ. He can't fail. The question is are we going to continue in the faith that secures the ministry of Christ that can not fail.


Now skip down to verse 23 and 24 in that same chapter.
If these people in verse 19 left because they were never 'really' saved to begin with, why does John tell his believing audience to not do what they did, denying the Lord, but instead to continue in what they heard in the beginning and, as a result, continue to be in the Son and Father? And the issue is about eternal life, not fellowship (vs.25) as is usually argued. Doesn't sound very OSAS. It's wrong to just take vs. 19 out of the context of everything else John says.

Most of your reply is anecdotal. You're just offering your interpretation of something and yours is a bit ambiguous.

I have already stated that I don't favor the term OSAS. It's misleading. And please show difinitively where the Bible teaches that a person can lose their salvation only once. I know many who ran from God and said no to the Spirit but in the end gave up because God was relentless (CS Lewis' story). The hound of heaven. http://www.umilta.net/hound.html

 

[civilwarbuff]

In verses 7&8 Paul is contrasting the believers and the unbelievers; verse 8 is not about people who have believed then fallen away. These are people who have never believed in the first place.

If a person believes for a while, then later returns to unbelieving, then brother, they do not believe anymore.JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Correct.
You only get to lose it once.
There is no re-crucifying of Christ allowed.

Are you saying that if a person believes then falls away they cannot go back to being a believer again?.......sort of like 'one and done'? Cuz that it how it is coming across.....

 

[JLB]

What is 'believed'?

James 2:14-26 [NIV]
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Some have a dead faith.

Good scripture.

Yes I agree, some have dead faith.

However, there are some who will "depart from" the faith, because they listen and believe false doctrine.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2



JLB

 

[JLB]

In verses 7&8 Paul is contrasting the believers and the unbelievers; verse 8 is not about people who have believed then fallen away. These are people who have never believed in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I don't know which verse's 7 & 8 you are referring to.

In my statement: If a person believes for a while, then later returns to unbelieving, then brother, they do not believe anymore.

I was referring to these verse's, specifically verse 13.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

If a person believes for a while then while under persecution and the threat of death, they renounce Christ, and convert to Islam, in which they confess Allah as Lord, then they longer believe.

They are not believers anymore.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm sorry, but I don't know which verse's 7 & 8 you are referring to.

It was from your quote on Rev 21.

In verses 7&8 Paul is contrasting the believers and the unbelievers; verse 8 is not about people who have believed then fallen away. These are people who have never believed in the first place.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person believes for a while, then later returns to unbelieving, then brother, they do not believe anymore.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
JLB

How can it be proved that to "fall away" means to "lose salvation"? If it is possible, please do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Most of your reply is anecdotal. You're just offering your interpretation of something and yours is a bit ambiguous.

Everything I wrote is from scripture.
I had expected that you have been following along and reading all the times I've explained all these things from the Bible.

And please show difinitively where the Bible teaches that a person can lose their salvation only once.

Hebrews 6:6 NASB


You're in a hardened indoctrination. I knew that after your second post. I had expected different from your first post, you seemingly so open to the subject, but you instantly showed you are not open at all.

I blame the church leadership for pressing the Calvinist agenda on the Protestant church. They should know better, but they insist on playing all the foolish, ungodly games that the leadership often plays for all the various wrong reasons they feel compelled to do so to keep their jobs (faithless as they are, even though they are supposed to be our examples). Frankly, I'm quite sick of it. When one sees the big picture of the last 500 years you can see that the church is in a very steep decline. And, IMO, this is in keeping with Paul's prophesy about the falling away that must occur before the unveiling of the man of sin. This hyper/free grace doctrine has put the church in an exponentially deeper dive toward the end.

Perhaps you're open enough to be shown how indoctrinations works. I was once indoctrinated, but a story Dr. Jeremiah told about his encounter with a Jehovah's Witness helped me see the power of indoctrinations in many of us, and I was set free to study the scriptures honestly and openly. And that led me, personally, to get off of the fence regarding OSAS. I'm going to start a thread about indoctrinations after the site comes back from the dark side of the moon.

I know many who ran from God and said no to the Spirit but in the end gave up because God was relentless (CS Lewis' story). The hound of heaven. http://www.umilta.net/hound.html

My wife got saved at the exact same moment I did. She walked in the faith, even received the gift of tongues (if you don't believe it's real, ask chopper) indicating she really did get saved and received the Holy Spirit, yet she has renounced the faith and has gone back to her old life.

 

[JLB]

Jude 1:24, 1 Peter 1:4, and this I quote in full: “2 Cor 1:21-22 is a good example of such a clear promise. “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

Amen, these are awesome scriptures, and I thank God for His promises and faithfulness to us.

However, it is through our faith that we stand. Even that faith is a gift from God.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


Jude 1:24 -

God in deed is able to make us stand, however if we read the context and warning from Jude, he both encourages us and warns us as well.

Jude uses examples from the Old Testament to teach us and warn us about those who believe for a while, then no longer believe.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; ...Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless. Jude 5-6,24

The point is to continue to believe.


again, the key to standing, is to continue to believe -


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jude 1:24, 1 Peter 1:4, and this I quote in full: “2 Cor 1:21-22 is a good example of such a clear promise. “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

If one is to make a biblical case for losing salvation, they have to address verses like this. They have to explain how God who makes us stand firm can fail at that with some of us. How God, after putting the Spirit in our hearts, fails at His promise to guarantee what is to come.

Jethro addressed 1 Peter 1:4, so I will not do it again except to reiterate that it is God who does the saving and the keeping, if we continue to believe.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:3-5


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you saying that if a person believes then falls away they cannot go back to being a believer again?.......sort of like 'one and done'? Cuz that it how it is coming across.....

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.
You can struggle with sin. You can even struggle with doubt. But when you give up on having faith in God's forgiveness altogether, and you refuse all efforts by God to bring you back, and God then gives you over to your unbelief, you are done. Re-crucifying Christ is NOT allowed.

 

[JLB]

Yes but in light of all other references to salvation, when taken in the whole, there is a clear indication that the saved will be kept by the power of God. You can't slip in and out of salvation. There is no biblical teaching for this.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If you continue to believe, or hold fast to the Gospel Message, the seed, until it brings forth it's intended fruit which is salvation.

This is what the parable of the Sower teaches us.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Hold Fast or Keep - Strong's G2722 - katechō

1. to hold back, detain, retain
   
   1. from going away
   2. to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
      
      1. that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
      2. to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship
         
   3. to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
      
2. to get possession of, take
   
   
   1. to possess
      

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

My wife got saved at the exact same moment I did. She walked in the faith, even received the gift of tongues (if you don't believe it's real, ask chopper) indicating she really did get saved and received the Holy Spirit, yet she has renounced the faith and has gone back to her old life.

If she received the gift of eternal life through placing her faith in Jesus Christ, then Jesus has promised this: John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand

Renouncing the faith and going back to an "old life" are lifestyle issues. No one is saved by lifestyle, and no one loses salvation by lifestyle.

The only condition for someone to NEVER PERISH is for Jesus to give them eternal life.

While she is a very rebellious child of God, she will never perish because of what Jesus promised.

 

[JLB]

Well we don't do anything. John 6:44 Unless God calls us by His Spirit.
Believers are followers. Followers follow. John 14:21, John 14:23, John 15:10, 1 John 2:3 As I said in a previous post: "One simply cannot choose to life a life that isn't following Jesus and yet claim to be a follower. It's not even logical."

How about choosing the life of a follower fro a while, as a disciple, and later on under the threat of persecution then turn away from Christ, thus no longer believing, they fall away.


Maybe we should study what fall away means, here in this context.

Are you willing to do that?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Renouncing the faith and going back to an "old life" are lifestyle issues. No one is saved by lifestyle, and no one loses salvation by lifestyle.

No, you don't understand.
She no longer believes in Christ.
She is in no way relying on and trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
From her own mouth she has utter contempt for God's forgiveness. It's a joke to her.

Her lifestyle is the result of her abandonment of the forgiveness of God.

 

[Nathan]

Renouncing the faith and going back to an "old life" are lifestyle issues. No one is saved by lifestyle, and no one loses salvation by lifestyle.

Actually, going back to an "old life" is a lifestyle issue. Renouncing the faith is a faith based issue.

However, you are correct that none is saved by lifestyle. None loose salvation by lifestyle either simply because we do not posses salvation - Jesus does.

I for one am glad that I do not have the task of "keeping" a hold of my salvation. I loose things way too much to be responsible for such an eternal thing.

On top of all of this, I do not think its easy to leave the Faith. We know its possible, but its not done because of just committing sin.

I studied this for a long time. I needed to get to the bottom of it once and for all. Anytime in my life I have ever sincerely asked for wisdom on a particular subject I have always been given the answer. This was one of those things.

To leave the Faith is to completely lay aside, purposefully and intently, all belief that Christ is the payment for your sins. That is why Hebrews speaks of never being able to return, because in order for that to be the case you would have to once again believe that Jesus is the payment for your sins - hence placing Him on the cross once again(metaphorically).

Sin, lifestyle of sin, can lead to this. We know that sin leads to death. What many believers do not realize that sin is sin - as in, ALL sin is sin. What happens is that sin, whatever it is, can fester and build and potentially take you to a point where you either believe God is not able to forgive you, or you believe that you have to do something to earn God's forgiveness. Both outcomes are opposed to the Faith, and are what block those who believe such things from entering the Faith to begin with. They are the "gateway" into and out of the Faith.

We do nothing to earn Faith. It is given to us from belief that Jesus paid it all.

This is also why we cannot judge others. We all, believers and non-believers alike, have the ability/propensity to sin. Renouncing the Faith is an old religious myth. You can no more "renounce" the Faith and be out of it, than you can "announce" the Faith and be in it. Faith is an inner change.

My heart goes out to those broken believers who feel that they have made the last mistake, even those who have stumbled along the way and feel they have left the Faith because of some great sin they have committed. My heart also breaks for those who are so dead set on believing sin cannot lead one to actually leave the Faith. Sin can and will, but its not a slip and fall as some believe.

 

[Nathan]

No, you don't understand.
She no longer believes in Christ.
She is in no way relying on and trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
From her own mouth she has utter contempt for God's forgiveness. It's a joke to her.

Her lifestyle is the result of her abandonment of the forgiveness of God.

Are you still married?

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, going back to an "old life" is a lifestyle issue. Renouncing the faith is a faith based issue.

What verse(s) teach that renouncing the faith results in loss of eternal life?

However, you are correct that none is saved by lifestyle. None loose salvation by lifestyle either simply because we do not posses salvation - Jesus does.

And He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.

I for one am glad that I do not have the task of "keeping" a hold of my salvation.

As we all should. But, sadly, there are many who think they are responsible for keeping their salvation.

Sin, lifestyle of sin, can lead to this. We know that sin leads to death.

If Rom 6:23 was speaking of eternal death, it means that we were separated from God the FIRST time we sinned. Not every time we sin. So it's irreleant to th discussion of losing salvation in any case.

 

[reba]

Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[JohnDB]

Shutting down till I can clean up the train wreck of this thread.