Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[DM]

Jgredline replied to my previous post, and concluded with this statement to me: "Jesus indeed is the Son of God, the second person of the triune God....
This is what makes perfect biblical sense....."

To say, "Jesus is the Son of God", is to quote Scripture verbatim, and therefore "makes perfect biblical sense". To add on top of that the words, ". . . the second person of the triune God", is to simply say what the Bible does not say, and then claim that it does. This kind of shell game with words is central to, and necessary for, Trinitarianism to be perpetuated.

Language is the medium by which faith comes (cf. Romans 10:17 & Galatians 3:2). It is in this sense that, "the word was (and is) God" (cf. John 1:1). What can be known of God comes by the agency of his "word" (Greek: logos), which became the person of Jesus. For trinitarians, God the Father is puppetmaster to "God the Son" (an invented, extra-biblical expression needed to perpetuate trinitarianism). This cosmic ventriloquism necessitates for Jesus to be something other than a human being. After all, what human being ever "pre-existed" (another invented, extra-biblical expression needed to perpetuate trinitarianism) their own birth?

This kind of "man" is really no man at all, but rather a hybrid spirit being the likes of which the pagan world could readily envision, just as the ancients in Lystra did when they said of Paul and Barnabas, "The gods have become like men and have come down to us" (Acts 14:11). Rather than use this opportunity as a spring-board for presenting Jesus as the incarnated God, Paul rejects this idea with the admonition, "Men, why are you doing these things?" (cf. Acts 14:15).

With the Jesus is God scenario, God the Father actually takes a back seat to "God the Son" . . . whose actually done more than God the Father. After all, no trinitarian would believe that God the Father is the one who became human. Thus, in this trinitarian structure, it is safe to say that God the Father really doesn't understand humanity . . . only "God the Son" does.

In the end, Christians end up missing the fact that we're destined to serve his (i.e. Jesus') God, and Father (cf. Revelation 1:6).

Sincerely,
David

 

[jgredline]

Jgredline replied to my previous post, and concluded with this statement to me: "Jesus indeed is the Son of God, the second person of the triune God....
This is what makes perfect biblical sense....."

David To those who are born of the spirit, this makes perfect sense....To those who are not, they will simply not understand as the scripture says...

I pray that perhaps one day you will come to see and know the truth...



However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[jgredline]

To anybody who does not Believe Jesus is God...

I have posted these questions before and yet no one of these doughting Thomases have been able to answer them.....Atleast Thomas repented of his un-belief

Why was the early and present day church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity?

Is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes it is, for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith.

First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us?

Second, justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. (This is seen today in the teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not believe in justification by faith alone.) If Jesus is not fully God, we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation?

Third, if Jesus is not infinite God, should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all God’s people? And who but God himself is worthy of worship? Indeed, if Jesus is merely a creature, no matter how great, it would be idolatry to worship himâ€â€yet the New Testament commands us to do so (Phil. 2:9–11; Rev. 5:12–14).

Fourth, if someone teaches that Christ was a created being but nonetheless one who saved us, then this teaching wrongly begins to attribute credit for salvation to a creature and not to God himself. But this wrongfully exalts the creature rather than the Creator, something Scripture never allows us to do.

Fifth, the independence and personal nature of God are at stake: If there is no Trinity, then there were no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation, and, without personal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for a creation to relate to.

Sixth, the unity of the universe is at stake: If there is not perfect plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe either. Clearly, in the doctrine of the Trinity, the heart of the Christian faith is at stake. ''

 

[Imagican]

fran,

Technically EVERYONE that does NOT accept 'your' religion IS NOT A Christian. For the Catholic faith, (which you have already pointed out that I need not 'teach' you it's beliefs), TEACHES that NO ONE other than those that accept 'THEIR' faith is even remotely offered the opportunity of Salvation.

I find it amusing that you can 'assume' SO MUCH of MY relationship, (or LACK of it), with God. It MUST be 'your religion' that teaches this. For the Bible teaches JUST THE OPPOSITE. For The apostles CLEARLY offer that neither 'you' nor ANY other 'man' is CAPABLE of judging the 'heart' of another.

Now, YOU would say that my offerings in understanding DO NOT 'agree' with 'your faith' so therefore YOU ARE able to discern The Spirit that either exists or DOESN'T through MY beliefs. WRONG. For I have offered NOTHING but LOVE in my offerings of warning to those that are UNAWARE of MUCH truth concerning 'religion'.

There is NOT ONE LINE OF SCRIPTURE that states that I MUST accept that Jesus Christ IS God. That is a 'man-made' concept that does NOT EXIST in The Word. To the CONTRARY in fact. For it is offered by God, His Son and the apostles of Christ CHOSEN by God Himself that Christ IS The Son of God. And ALL one NEED do to be offered Salvation is to ACCEPT Christ INTO THEIR HEARTS and they CAN be forgiven for their SINS. I need NO MAN to 'hail Mary' me into forgiveness. That is ONLY obtainable through SPIRIT, NOT possible through the flesh of mankind, PERIOD.

And NO amount of money will buy YOU or ANYONE a 'place in heaven'. NOR will it BUY forgiveness. And NO MATTER how 'many' hail Marys you offer, they are NOTHING but carnal words that can bring NOTHING other than 'sound'.

So, fran, why 'pick me' out of the crowd to condemn to 'hell'? Why not tell jg that HE TOO is 'going to hell' if he doesn't follow 'your' religion? Heck, why not tell ALL those carnal Protestants out there that their ONLY CHANCE is to accept the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Instead you choose to 'single me out' to 'pour out' your 'pity?'

I 'tried' to tell you previous that I have NO animosity towards 'you' or ANY Catholics that exist on this planet. I have simply attempted to 'point out' the 'falacy' of their teachings. Those things that the 'average' person may be COMPLETELY unaware of if not for those like myself. For fran, I DO love my brothers and sisters ENOUGH to forgo 'political correctness'. For that is no different than the liberalism that states, "So what, LET EM DO WHAT THEY WILL. WHO CARES that there are gays running AMOK in the churches, and condoning such behavior. Do you NOT realize that to CONDONE such behavior is little different than 'joining in on it'?

Sometimes it takes 'offense' to bring the 'truth' to those that are OBLIVIOUS to it. For when the 'truth' contradicts that which they are 'comfortable' with, MOST DO take offense.

And to ADD to this; Satan HATES the truth. Therefore HIS DEMONS hate the truth. So, when truth is offered to those that 'entertain' these 'demons' they DO get angry. Angry enough to accuse and bear false witness and even torture and KILL those that are willing to STAND up and OFFER IT.

I love you brother and would NOT see you 'harmed' in ANY WAY. I can only HOPE to see others able to accept that which has been freely offered and accepted by 'myself'. What a loving and gracious God we have. What a PERFECT example have we IN HIS SON. And the thought that there could be JUST ONE LOST is enough to bring a tear to my eye. Yet there are SO MANY that it pains me unbearably at times. IF i were able to dwell on this continuous I doubt that this kind of pain could be born by a man of no more strength than I.

God Bless you my brother.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Notice the difference in terms that John uses here.


1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Father, Word, and Holy Ghost, and these three are one. :o

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

Technically EVERYONE that does NOT accept 'your' religion IS NOT A Christian. For the Catholic faith, (which you have already pointed out that I need not 'teach' you it's beliefs), TEACHES that NO ONE other than those that accept 'THEIR' faith is even remotely offered the opportunity of Salvation.

Technically, you don't know what you are talking about. Please cite me a paragraph from the Catholic Catechism that makes any statement remotely similar to your gibberish. Perhaps your sources are incorrect? Whatever the reasons, you ARE wrong.

I find it amusing that you can 'assume' SO MUCH of MY relationship, (or LACK of it), with God. It MUST be 'your religion' that teaches this. For the Bible teaches JUST THE OPPOSITE. For The apostles CLEARLY offer that neither 'you' nor ANY other 'man' is CAPABLE of judging the 'heart' of another.

Nice try. Can't answer the questions that I or Javier provide, so you take the conversation in this direction, trying to make our points into personal attacks. I am pointing out that your theology is wrong. I am not making any statements about your personal practices, whatever they may be...

Now, YOU would say that my offerings in understanding DO NOT 'agree' with 'your faith' so therefore YOU ARE able to discern The Spirit that either exists or DOESN'T through MY beliefs. WRONG. For I have offered NOTHING but LOVE in my offerings of warning to those that are UNAWARE of MUCH truth concerning 'religion'.

You have offered love? What exactly is your definition of love? Telling everyone they are wrong because YOU said so??? Who are you??? Are you infallible?

All you can provide is "Thus says the Lord... I THINK!"

There is NOT ONE LINE OF SCRIPTURE that states that I MUST accept that Jesus Christ IS God. That is a 'man-made' concept that does NOT EXIST in The Word. To the CONTRARY in fact. For it is offered by God, His Son and the apostles of Christ CHOSEN by God Himself that Christ IS The Son of God. And ALL one NEED do to be offered Salvation is to ACCEPT Christ INTO THEIR HEARTS and they CAN be forgiven for their SINS. I need NO MAN to 'hail Mary' me into forgiveness. That is ONLY obtainable through SPIRIT, NOT possible through the flesh of mankind, PERIOD.

There is a lot of things that are not in Scripture that you believe - like the "idea" that "everything must be in the bible before I believe it..." I wonder how far the first Christians would have gotten with that ridiculous idea...

Let me give you a piece of Scriptures, just the same.

See, the Jews were VERY hard hearted. They REFUSED to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ. Even with evidence staring at them in their face - they tried to attribute it to Satan. Kind of like you do with the Catholic Church.

HOWEVER, they weren't so stubborn and hard hearted to recognize when someone was making a claim to be God! THEY KNEW what Jesus was teaching. They KNEW He was claiming to be God!

"... Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work. Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God." John 5:17-18

Now, I can hear you stammering and desperately trying to come up with another lame excuse, as usual. However, the fact of the matter remains that the stubborn, blind Jews on the ground recognized Jesus' claims. So spin all you want. The Bible clearly tells us that the religious experts of the time KNEW that Jesus was making an extraordinary claim.

If you don't recognize Jesus' claims, it is because you are unfamiliar with Sacred Scriptures.

Pray that our Lord and our Savior and our God Jesus Christ sends you the graces to release you from your hard-heartedness.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

NO fran,

EVERYTHING is NOT in The Bible. BUT, we WERE 'given' the Word in order to USE it to discern TRUTH. Everything is NOT in The Written Word. But if 'something' goes AGAINST IT, it's a 'pretty GOOD bet' that IT'S WRONG.

Love is 'GIVING' NOT 'TAKING'. ALL I have 'attempted' to DO is GIVE. That which has been 'given' to ME I offer FREELY to others. If that which I 'give' is in oppostion to what you 'believe', so be it. But I would be remiss in my duties if I were to NOT offer that which I have been given.

I don't envy the bonds which you have 'chosen' to bare. I would offer you FREEDOM from those bindings. That you would CONTINUE 'in' them is your own doing. And PLEASE, don't envy me for the FREEDOM that has been 'accepted'.

I am bound by NO man-made doctrine that would deny ME the ability to OFFER love. I have been 'given' freedom in understanding of 'that' which is made by 'men'. I serve NO man, (other than myself which I will OPENLY admit). I struggle with the flesh EVERYDAY. But at LEAST I have been GIVEN the 'understanding'. That I would FREELY offer to ANY OTHER that is willing to even listen.

I have NOT tried to 'personally attack' ANYONE. I have CERTAINLY offered rebuke of 'false doctrine'. If one takes 'this' personally, then that is THEIR interpretation of my actions. If one were to view my comments with an honest desire for interpretation, it is OBVIOUS that I do NOT hold one's views against THEM as a 'person'. That is between THEM and God. But the 'belief' itself is certainly able to be discerned.

Fran,

The ONLY difference in MY attitude of appearing to 'know' everything and yours is that you 'believe' you have millions of others like yourself that YOU believe makes your 'group' mentality RIGHT through the sake of shear numbers alone. Do you KNOW that the WORLD is LOST? So, numbers for the sake of numbers alone mean NOTHING.

You have 'bought into' a belief system that requires you to accept the 'teachings' of men. Men that had MUCH time to corrupt themselves with Greed, power, lusts, etc........ Men that have SHOWN their TRUE spirit through their behavior towards their fellow man. Imprisoning, torturing, murdering. And these types of behavior were JUSTIFIED? This is the example offered us by Christ? And NO, it was NOT just a 'few bad apples'. The ENTIRE clergy has been responsible for these acts of their 'faith'. Believing that they could IGNORE The Spirit. Ignore the Word of God and simply do things THEIR WAY.

So, from YOUR perspective I am WELL aware that I am an heretic. Speaking words of blashphemy. But what YOU seem to be unaware is that these charges are ONLY true of 'your religion'. They have NOTHING to do with TRUE crimes against God or His Word.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

EVERYTHING is NOT in The Bible. BUT, we WERE 'given' the Word in order to USE it to discern TRUTH. Everything is NOT in The Written Word. But if 'something' goes AGAINST IT, it's a 'pretty GOOD bet' that IT'S WRONG.

Granted. But this "going against the Bible" idea is a something subject to interpretation. Christians cannot seem to agree on many topics, utilizing the very same book... That is why God established a divinely-guided authority here on earth that was given the power to bind and loosen.

Love is 'GIVING' NOT 'TAKING'. ALL I have 'attempted' to DO is GIVE. That which has been 'given' to ME I offer FREELY to others. If that which I 'give' is in oppostion to what you 'believe', so be it. But I would be remiss in my duties if I were to NOT offer that which I have been given.

Yes, you have given false opinions, according to my own interpretations. But that is not all. You have also misrepresented my own faith. You say "Catholics do 'x'', but you are wrong. This is what bothers me more. This is clearly breaking the Commandment of Love. Those who love do not purposely misrepresent someone else. I have asked you to cite paragraphs on your "ideas" of Catholicism. If you cannot, then kindly do not make any more assumptions on what we teach or believe.

I don't envy the bonds which you have 'chosen' to bare. I would offer you FREEDOM from those bindings. That you would CONTINUE 'in' them is your own doing. And PLEASE, don't envy me for the FREEDOM that has been 'accepted'.

The bonds that I bear? "The burden is light"! I am a slave to Christ, and that is freedom to me. I do not "envy" your position! Thanks for your concern, but I am happy following Christ as Lord and Savior within the Community He established.

I am bound by NO man-made doctrine that would deny ME the ability to OFFER love. I have been 'given' freedom in understanding of 'that' which is made by 'men'. I serve NO man, (other than myself which I will OPENLY admit). I struggle with the flesh EVERYDAY. But at LEAST I have been GIVEN the 'understanding'. That I would FREELY offer to ANY OTHER that is willing to even listen.

Sounds like you do not understand the meaning of humility and obedience. As such, how close are you to understanding the revelation given by God's Son, Jesus Christ?

The ONLY difference in MY attitude of appearing to 'know' everything and yours is that you 'believe' you have millions of others like yourself that YOU believe makes your 'group' mentality RIGHT through the sake of shear numbers alone. Do you KNOW that the WORLD is LOST? So, numbers for the sake of numbers alone mean NOTHING.

It has nothing to do with "who is right". It has to do with you claiming to "KNOW" what Catholics teach and do. Then when pressed to prove your "knowledge", what happens? That is why I find you disreputable and not operating in love and truth. IF you are truly searching for truth, you would explore the Catechism on items you disagree with and discern for yourself that your stereotypes are wrong.

You have 'bought into' a belief system that requires you to accept the 'teachings' of men.

We ALL do, to a degree, because God has chosen to reveal Himself through men. Like it or not, the Bible came to us through men. God's teachings come to us through men. Our belief in Jesus Christ is primarily dependent upon our trust in the men who have related His teachings to us. Yours is a tired cliche that makes no sense.

Men that had MUCH time to corrupt themselves with Greed, power, lusts, etc........ Men that have SHOWN their TRUE spirit through their behavior towards their fellow man. Imprisoning, torturing, murdering. And these types of behavior were JUSTIFIED? This is the example offered us by Christ? And NO, it was NOT just a 'few bad apples'. The ENTIRE clergy has been responsible for these acts of their 'faith'. Believing that they could IGNORE The Spirit. Ignore the Word of God and simply do things THEIR WAY.

And yet, God chose to work through this same nature, wounded men. While men throughout history, Protestants and Catholics have strayed from the Spirit, this doesn't mean we toss aside the entire Christian faith. The undefiled and immaculate Church will not be found in reality until we are gathered in heaven. Until then, we can look at her archtype, the Virgin Mary. We are not immaculate. And yet, God is gathering His people.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

While I will admit that Catholic doctrine does seem to 'evolve' as issues arise that they are unable to cope with. But, let's see if we can 'clear up' my misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. And in doing so, I will openly apologize for any 'false accusations' that I 'may' have made.

1. The CC does NOT teach that their 'church' is the ONLY TRUE Church?

2. The inquisition and other forms of torture and murder WERE NOT used by the CC?

3. 'Trinity' WAS NOT a 'doctrine' created and accepted into Christianity BY The CC?

4. The CC does NOT condone the praying to statues, (wooden carved images), of Mary and Saints?

5. The doctrine of 'trinity' has NOT evolved into it's present state over MUCH dirision and controversy?

6. There has NOT been MUCH corruption in the CC?

7. The CC has NOT FORCED, (in the past), it's beliefs upon ALL under their dominion?

8. The CC does NOT deny the cup in symbolic rememberance of the 'last supper'?

9. The Pope does NOT state that HE is able to discern those that WILL or WILL NOT be granted forgiveness?

10. The CC has NEVER 'charged' their congregation for Godly 'favor'.

11. The CC has NEVER sold indulgences that serve NO OTHER purpose than to bring wealth into the pockets of priests?

12. The CC does NOT forbid to wed?

12. The CC does NOT call the priests 'father'?

I don't know if any of these have 'rescently' CHANGED. Perhaps the CC, in order to 'reach out', without the ability to FORCE anyone anymore, has altered their STAND on themselves BEING the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. But I can say without discrepency that since their inception they have TAUGHT that ANYONE that does NOT accept their teachings are NOT a 'part' of the Body of Christ; The Church.

Now, I don't ask for EXPLANATION of these questions. JUST whether I have 'misrepresented' the 'beliefs' taught by the CC.

I HAVE read your catechism fran. I HAVE read the history of your 'church'. You indicate that I just RANDOMLY offer 'my opinions' of your 'church' and it's teachings. To 'you', ANY derogatory comments concerning the CC are veiwed as 'false accusations'. Fran, MOST folks that have done the LEAST bit of study concerning the CC are WELL aware that the statements that I make ARE truth. Short of 'political correctness', 'I' can see NO reason NOT to 'warn' the 'few' that are NOT aware of the inherent dangers of ANY 'religion' that teaches 'their OWN faith' rather than a 'faith in God'.

I do NOT 'single out' the CC. I have made JUST as many comments concerning the Protestant faith as the Catholic faith. To YOU, 'I' AM a Protestant. So be it. It just goes to PROVE what I have already tried to offer. Your faith demands that 'I' MUST be a 'part' of IT or I am a Protestant. This is ALL that is needed for ANYONE of even reasonable intellegence to PLAINLY SEE in WHAT regard 'your faith' holds towards others concerning IT being the ONLY TRUE CHURCH.

Authority? I question IT daily. NOT the authority of God or those He chooses to 'maintain' the adherance to HIS WORD. But those that would USURP the authority of God and place in it's stead 'their OWN'.

You 'say' that the CC was GIVEN this authority for YOU 'say' that the apostles were the 'fathers' of YOUR faith. I do NOT accept this as accurate teachings. The CC has murdered MORE Saints than the Romans ever did BEFORE Christianity was introduced into their culture. They, of course, would NEVER own up to this but history speaks for itself.

I do NOT rebel against authority simply for the 'sake' of freedom to DO so. I rebel against the 'teachings of this WORLD' that do NOT conform to the teachings of God through the Holy Spirit. And to these of this world, the words that I speak ARE but 'foolishness'.

Ask ANYONE that has followed my postings. I have attempted to FREE myself from the bowing to ANY man-made image or institution that does NOT adhere to the foundation that has been laid for us. To many I am quite SURE that this causes MUCH envy. And I don't mean in a POSITIVE way. For MANY will resent the ease with which I am able to dismiss what they hold SO DEAR. Simply proving FURTHER that they would have ME worship 'their' man-made' institutions as well as themselves and become angered when I point out that this 'does NOT make 'THEM' any more a 'Christian' than I and maybe NOT AS MUCH.

Fran, I am a 'lousy' representative of Christ. I sin. I think of 'myself' before others OFTEN. I LIE, I STEAL, I HATE, I LUST. But you know, the one thing that I DO NOT DO is LIE about DOING THESE THINGS.

I am repentant of my sins upon conviction. What I recognize as my faults I ask for guidance and strength to overcome. When I DO think 'badly' about my neighbors, I ASK for forgiveness and BELIEVE that eventually I will be ABLE to overcome this as well.

It took me FORTY years to become the sinner that I have become. And I KNOW that if I live another EIGHTY I will STILL be a 'sinner'. But what's MOST important to me is THIS KNOWLEDGE. The knowledge that I AM a sinner and that if NOT for the grace of God I would perish FOREVER. That HE loves me is MUCH more important than the 'love of a church' or a 'group' of people. For it is HIS love that is able to bring wisdom into my life. And MUCH of what I have witnessed in 'your churches' is CONTRARY to what has been offered BY GOD.

You CERTAINLY have a 'right' to worship as you see fit. But that doesn't mean that I don't have the right to 'point out' it's flaws and contradiction. So long as I offer 'truth' why would it 'bother' ANYONE? And the 'truth' of one that accepts such a 'faith' is CERTAINLY going to vary from the 'truth' of one on the 'outside' looking in.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

While I will admit that Catholic doctrine does seem to 'evolve' as issues arise that they are unable to cope with. But, let's see if we can 'clear up' my misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. And in doing so, I will openly apologize for any 'false accusations' that I 'may' have made.

Fair enough.

1. The CC does NOT teach that their 'church' is the ONLY TRUE Church?

If you mean that this excludes other "churches", then "no".

2. The inquisition and other forms of torture and murder WERE NOT used by the CC?

They were used by many governments and institutions of the day. Try not to be anachronistic.

3. 'Trinity' WAS NOT a 'doctrine' created and accepted into Christianity BY The CC?

Just as much as Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

4. The CC does NOT condone the praying to statues, (wooden carved images), of Mary and Saints?

No. That is idiotic.

5. The doctrine of 'trinity' has NOT evolved into it's present state over MUCH dirision and controversy?

ALL doctrine has "evolved" as men of "today" (whether "today" means 500, 1000, 1500 or 2007 AD) try to take the doctrine that has been transmitted and put it into words that make sense for people of today. Do you think "stem-cell research" is in the Bible? So what is the Church's moral stand?

6. There has NOT been MUCH corruption in the CC?

A non-sequitar, as your own short biography in this post admits as much...

7. The CC has NOT FORCED, (in the past), it's beliefs upon ALL under their dominion?

No more than you are "forcing" me to believe you.

8. The CC does NOT deny the cup in symbolic rememberance of the 'last supper'?

No

9. The Pope does NOT state that HE is able to discern those that WILL or WILL NOT be granted forgiveness?

Any priest has the same authority given by the bishop given by Jesus Christ, who is God.

10. The CC has NEVER 'charged' their congregation for Godly 'favor'.

No. People make donations - called "alms-giving".

11. The CC has NEVER sold indulgences that serve NO OTHER purpose than to bring wealth into the pockets of priests?

Now how are you going to prove the "NO OTHER purpose" part?

12. The CC does NOT forbid to wed?

One person marrying someone already married is bigomy. Does the Christian Bible condone bigomy? A "legal" divorce is not enough to separate what GOD HAD JOINED!

12. The CC does NOT call the priests 'father'?

Yes, and Paul calls the Corinthians his children and he is their father spiritually.

But I can say without discrepency that since their inception they have TAUGHT that ANYONE that does NOT accept their teachings are NOT a 'part' of the Body of Christ; The Church.

Do you have a paragraph that states that from your Catholic Catechism?

I HAVE read your catechism fran.

The evidence is not there.

I HAVE read the history of your 'church'.

Our past conversations do not bear that as truth.

You indicate that I just RANDOMLY offer 'my opinions' of your 'church' and it's teachings. To 'you', ANY derogatory comments concerning the CC are veiwed as 'false accusations'.

Only if you can't back them up. Otherwise, it is libel. If you can back them up, then provide the proof. I have done that. I have given writings on the Church Fathers that state a belief in the Trinity LONG before Constantine, for example. All you do is continue on your "well, the Church still invented it..." Without ANY evidence whatsoever. If you expect me to take you seriously, you will have to provide serious data to back up your assertions. I take my faith seriously. I am not about to abandon my community because YOU say "the Trinity is an invention of the Church, not of the Apostles".

Fran, MOST folks that have done the LEAST bit of study concerning the CC are WELL aware that the statements that I make ARE truth.

Prove it. Give me paragraphs from the Catechism that says "Catholics must worship statues" or "the Catholic Church is the ONLY True Church and anyone who is not Roman Catholic is separated from Christ".

Prove it from the history, the records that are available. Show me some writings from orthodox Christians in 75 or so AD that vehemently denied the idea of Trinity. Show me where these Christians denied that Christ was God.

Short of 'political correctness', 'I' can see NO reason NOT to 'warn' the 'few' that are NOT aware of the inherent dangers of ANY 'religion' that teaches 'their OWN faith' rather than a 'faith in God'.

Basically, you are claiming for yourself infallibility. What you write here is inspired by God, is without doubt correct. Anyone who veers from the gospel according to Imagican is wrong. I have time and time again shown your ideas as wrong. Your ideas of history, for example. Pitiful. Your ideas of what Christian freedom is. Ludicrous. Your ideas of self-righteousness. Sad.

You 'say' that the CC was GIVEN this authority for YOU 'say' that the apostles were the 'fathers' of YOUR faith. I do NOT accept this as accurate teachings. The CC has murdered MORE Saints than the Romans ever did BEFORE Christianity was introduced into their culture. They, of course, would NEVER own up to this but history speaks for itself.

History according to you, but not reality.

I do NOT rebel against authority simply for the 'sake' of freedom to DO so. I rebel against the 'teachings of this WORLD' that do NOT conform to the teachings of God through the Holy Spirit.

In other words, your opinions are the opinions of God. Excuse me, but I have doubts about that. Please excuse me - IF you want to learn about Catholicism, don't ask your preacher. Ask a knowledgeable Catholic or read the Catechism.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

This is another thread that I will temporarily lock until I have had a chance to read through it again clean it up. ;-)