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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

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#1
OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
Was Paul saved when he wrote these words, and what is winning Christ?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PAUL, and then in 1 Cor 11:1 you tell us to follow Jesus as you did, because we will be judged for reward according to Rom 2:16, and you received that gospel by our risen Savior. Gal 1:11-12.

Do OSNAS love Jesus as part of their retaining their salvation?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Can they just go about murdering others, committing fornication, or even breaking the speed limit, and still think they retain the faith to someday be given eternal life? Is this what winning Christ means to them?
 
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#2
Why assume that those who do not hold to OSAS think 'they' retain 'their' salvation?

I find this to be one thing that OSAS believers cannot let go of, and the one thing I so desperately wish I could describe is not true.
 

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#3
OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
Was Paul saved when he wrote these words, and what is winning Christ?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PAUL, and then in 1 Cor 11:1 you tell us to follow Jesus as you did, because we will be judged for reward according to Rom 2:16, and you received that gospel by our risen Savior. Gal 1:11-12.

Do OSNAS love Jesus as part of their retaining their salvation?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Can they just go about murdering others, committing fornication, or even breaking the speed limit, and still think they retain the faith to someday be given eternal life? Is this what winning Christ means to them?
No we are called to live our life according to the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, rather than being led by the desires of our flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

The Spirit leads us in the way of love; Loving God by obeying Him, and loving people.

The Spirit within leads us to do what is good, and right in the sight of our merciful God, who loved us and gave His Son as a sacrifice for us, that we could be reconciled to Him.

We have been given His divine nature, that is empowered by His Spirit,that by grace we can walk in dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12

  • the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us...

A babe in Christ has much to learn about walking in the power of the Spirit so as to not fulfill the lust's of the flesh, and so there is much grace, teaching us these things.

However, as we mature, God does indeed expect us to walk soberly and deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.



JLB
 
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#4
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Hi Nathan, are you now attempting to tell me you can deny Jesus, turn from believing Him as Moses did in Num 20:12, and retain your salvation?
Are you still saved if you commit a sin unto death as Moses did according to Deut 32:50-51?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I just posted the following thread written by A.S Copley teaching on the unforgiven sin that I believe.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-unforgiven-sin.70138/
 
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12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14
Good morning. Is there the possibility this is speaking of physical instead of spiritual death such as that Moses experienced in Deut 32:50-51? Didn't Moses later appear on the mount of transfiguration with Elias, and talking with Jesus?
However, as we mature, God does indeed expect us to walk soberly and deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.
Agreed!!! But can you tell me what Paul was attempting to accomplish by forsaking all to win Christ in Php 3:8 when it is apparent that he was already saved?

And again as I posted to Nathan in the previous post, I just posted the following thread written by A.S Copley teaching on the unforgiven sin that I believe.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-unforgiven-sin.70138/

Thanks.
 
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#6
Is it not possible that the confusion over the OSAS/OSNAS concepts is that all the verses are talking are about the past, the present, & future?
Paul is running a Spiritual Race while writing about his Past State(NS)
& His Present State(OSAS/OSNAS) or His Audience Present State(OSAS/OSNAS/NS)
& His Future State after Death(Crown/Heaven/Hell) or His Audience Future State after Death(Crown/Heaven/Hell)?

This Same Spiritual Message was also Sent to the Earth's current Population of 6.924 billion?
 
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#7
Is it not possible that the confusion over the OSAS/OSNAS concepts is that all the verses are talking are about the past, the present, & future?
Paul is running a Spiritual Race while writing about his Past State(NS)
& His Present State(OSAS/OSNAS) or His Audience Present State(OSAS/OSNAS/NS)
& His Future State after Death(Crown/Heaven/Hell) or His Audience Future State after Death(Crown/Heaven/Hell)?

This Same Spiritual Message was also Sent to the Earth's current Population of 6.924 billion?
Dear markathome, to me, when Paul speaks to us in Romans for instance, he is especially addressing the experience of all that have entered the narrow gate into eternal life. Please note that I did not say provisional life which is indeed a state we were at before we called upon the name of Jesus according to Rom 10:13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I’m not aware of your understanding of context for instance of Romans Chapter Nine especially addressing Israel past, Chapter Ten is Israel present, and Chapter Eleven Israel future.

Anyhow, Paul writes of Salvation in four different aspects I wrote below, and also in a pamphlet at the following URL link.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ" (Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
 
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#8
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Hi Nathan, are you now attempting to tell me you can deny Jesus, turn from believing Him as Moses did in Num 20:12, and retain your salvation?
Are you still saved if you commit a sin unto death as Moses did according to Deut 32:50-51?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I just posted the following thread written by A.S Copley teaching on the unforgiven sin that I believe.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-unforgiven-sin.70138/
Moses did not turn from God. Moses sinned against Him, but He most definitely did not turn from Him. We have to understand to turn from God(Christ) is to deny Him completely. Think of it this way - in order to turn to Him(away from ourselves) we have to deny ourselves completely, right? So to reverse that would be the same. Its not a one shot affair. After all, Peter denied Him three times in one night - yet did not turn from Him completely. :)

Are you speaking of spiritual death or physical death? ALL sin results in physical death, only one sin leads to spiritual death. Moses did not sin the one that leads to spiritual death - only physical death.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

1Jo 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


John is clearly speaking of spiritual death in verse 17 - contrasted with physical death in verse 16. Unless we are going to say that Paul was mistaken with what he wrote in Romans 5.

1Jo 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.



I just saw this was posted really early. lol. We can carry on the conversation over there, or here, whichever you like. :)
 
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#9
Moses did not turn from God. Moses sinned against Him, but He most definitely did not turn from Him. We have to understand to turn from God (Christ) is to deny Him completely.
Where do you read that? Moses and his brother were not even allowed to enter the promised land, and both put to death as the result of not believing God. Num 20:12.
Since the Old Testament is an ensample of things future, we read in 1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. It appears that our faithlessness brings the judgment we read of in the book of Revelation Chapters Two & Three at this time. Do we attain unto being commended as the churches at Smyrna & Philadelphia, or are we doing what we must to win Christ, or told to repent as the remaining five churches are told to do? :)
 
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#10
Where do you read that? Moses and his brother were not even allowed to enter the promised land, and both put to death as the result of not believing God. Num 20:12.
Since the Old Testament is an ensample of things future, we read in 1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. It appears that our faithlessness brings the judgment we read of in the book of Revelation Chapters Two & Three at this time. Do we attain unto being commended as the churches at Smyrna & Philadelphia, or are we doing what we must to win Christ, or told to repent as the remaining five churches are told to do? :)
I don't read it. :). Lol. That's exactly why I do not believe Moses 'turned' from God.

Sinning is not turning away in the sense the idea is used in the Bible. To turn away from God is to turn to another to worship. Moses did not turn to another to worship, he simply let his hot head get in the way. :)

Revelation is a whole other topic. I figure unless you really want to dive into it, we might just leave it for now. I am not seeing how it relates to this discussion?
 
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#11
Revelation is a whole other topic. I figure unless you really want to dive into it, we might just leave it for now. I am not seeing how it relates to this discussion?
I brought it up for its show of judgment to the entire Church in Revelation chapters Two & three. I don't see any there thrown into the lake of fire, but their reward varies. Why did Paul want to win Christ in Php 3:8?
 

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#12
Good morning. Is there the possibility this is speaking of physical instead of spiritual death such as that Moses experienced in Deut 32:50-51? Didn't Moses later appear on the mount of transfiguration with Elias, and talking with Jesus?
Good Morning to you, sir.

  • Here is some context for Romans 8.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

Don't we teach people that Adam's sin brought spiritual death into the Human race?

  • Paul had just written this in Romans 5.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12


It is my understanding that Jesus paid the price on the cross to cleanse us from our sins, and redeem us from eternal damnation, or as another place says condemnation, not physical death.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Paul expounds on what he taught in Romans 5, and relates it to those who are Christians.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:20-23

...having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

  • The end result of being a slave to God and His righteousness, is everlasting life.
  • The wages of a life being a slave to sin, is death; Eternal death

Eternal life and eternal death are what is being contrasted here.


Didn't Moses later appear on the mount of transfiguration with Elias, and talking with Jesus?
Yes Moses was how old? 120 years old and was at the fullness of age, since the Lord decreed these words for mankind:

  • And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” Genesis 6:3

Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.
Deuteronomy 34:7

Moses walked with God, and saw Him, and spoke with Him face to face, and was held to a higher accountability that the others.
He messed up one of the Lord shadows and types, and was not allowed to enter the promised land.
  • However, Moses was counted as a faithful man of God.

What would have happened to us if Jesus would have sinned, even once during His time on earth.

We would have not had a sinless High Priest, nor would we have a sinless Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world.



JLB
 
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#13
OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
Was Paul saved when he wrote these words, and what is winning Christ?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PAUL, and then in 1 Cor 11:1 you tell us to follow Jesus as you did, because we will be judged for reward according to Rom 2:16, and you received that gospel by our risen Savior. Gal 1:11-12.

Do OSNAS love Jesus as part of their retaining their salvation?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Can they just go about murdering others, committing fornication, or even breaking the speed limit, and still think they retain the faith to someday be given eternal life? Is this what winning Christ means to them?
So far, there have been no posts that even address the Greek word translated "win". Which is where we must begin.

So, here it is:
NT:2770 kerdaino (ker-dah'-ee-no); from NT:2771; to gain (literally or figuratively):
KJV - (get) gain, win.
New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

To answer the first question: "was Paul saved when He wrote Phil 3:8?" Yes, of course. As a writer of Scripture, He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So "gaining Christ" or "winning Christ" cannot refer to getting salvation.

The idea of gaining can be applied to being rewarded for faithfulness during this life. We know from 2 Tim 2:12 that one must endure in order to reign with Christ. So reigning with Christ requires enduring. Why some think "reigning with Christ" refers to being saved is beyond me.

In the same vein, Paul said that in order to be a "co-heir with Christ" we must suffer for him (Rom 8:17b). That's another way to refer to enduring.

To be a "co-heir with Christ" and to "reign with Christ" are synonymous.

Even in v.8 Paul notes that he has suffered for Christ. So Phil 3:8 relates directly to 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17b.
 
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#14
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2
Thanks for your reply. Are you aware of the inclusion of the words “Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” in the KJV version of the bible which attempts to change the context of the words “No Condemnation?” I think I agree with the remainder of your post.

Scofield makes this note on Rom 8:1. The statement ends with "Christ Jesus"; the last ten words are interpolated.
Here is a list of bibles that do not add those last ten words to Rom 8:1.

New International Version
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
:wave2
 
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#15
So far, there have been no posts that even address the Greek word translated "win". Which is where we must begin.

So, here it is:
NT:2770 kerdaino (ker-dah'-ee-no); from NT:2771; to gain (literally or figuratively):
KJV - (get) gain, win.
New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

To answer the first question: "was Paul saved when He wrote Phil 3:8?" Yes, of course. As a writer of Scripture, He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So "gaining Christ" or "winning Christ" cannot refer to getting salvation.

The idea of gaining can be applied to being rewarded for faithfulness during this life. We know from 2 Tim 2:12 that one must endure in order to reign with Christ. So reigning with Christ requires enduring. Why some think "reigning with Christ" refers to being saved is beyond me.

In the same vein, Paul said that in order to be a "co-heir with Christ" we must suffer for him (Rom 8:17b). That's another way to refer to enduring.

To be a "co-heir with Christ" and to "reign with Christ" are synonymous.

Even in v.8 Paul notes that he has suffered for Christ. So Phil 3:8 relates directly to 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17b.
I agree! Thanks for the reply.
 
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#17
Moses did not turn from God. Moses sinned against Him, but He most definitely did not turn from Him. We have to understand to turn from God(Christ) is to deny Him completely. Think of it this way - in order to turn to Him(away from ourselves) we have to deny ourselves completely, right? So to reverse that would be the same. Its not a one shot affair. After all, Peter denied Him three times in one night - yet did not turn from Him completely. :)
To me you add a lot of thinking not supported by scripture. I'm not sure how much worse we can become than not believing God (Num 20:12), not following God's commands (Deut 32:51), and being told by God to go die on the mount because of it in Deut 32:51.

Was there a difference in King Saul's transgressions in:
1Sa 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
1Sa 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Even here did Saul turn from God as you put it because God no longer answered him, and he turned to the witch of Endor?
1Jo 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

John is clearly speaking of spiritual death in verse 17 - contrasted with physical death in verse 16. Unless we are going to say that Paul was mistaken with what he wrote in Romans 5.
I'm not sure what in Romans Chapter Five you're referring to, but I read Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Are believers under law?)
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.)

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 
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#19
To me you add a lot of thinking not supported by scripture. I'm not sure how much worse we can become than not believing God (Num 20:12), not following God's commands (Deut 32:51), and being told by God to go die on the mount because of it in Deut 32:51.

Was there a difference in King Saul's transgressions in:
1Sa 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
1Sa 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Even here did Saul turn from God as you put it because God no longer answered him, and he turned to the witch of Endor?

I'm not sure what in Romans Chapter Five you're referring to, but I read Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Are believers under law?)
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.)

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Well, we can become a LOT WORSE than what Moses did. Say, for instance, worship a golden calf - look to something else for salvation(deliverance). That is what the children of Israel did - who then had their names blotted out of the book, unlike Moses.

I think you are still not distinguishing between a 'sin' we commit, and a continuation in sin. Saul, that is one tuff case there. It could lead off into a whole other discussion. We could suffice to say that he had the Spirit of God taken from Him after he turned from God - where as the sins that David committed did not result in the Spirit of God being taken from him. There is a difference we can clearly see.

Believers are under the law of love.

Gal 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


That is not to say we derive our standing with God based on this law, but we are not 'lawless'. There are dire warnings for thinking such things, and those who live that way are not stable.

2Pe 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.


In Christ the law is fulfilled, because when we are walking in the light with Him, we love like He does, and the sin(s) that do happen are covered in His blood. When we step out of the light, walking in darkness, there is no covering for our sin.

The people who walk in darkness do so because they choose to. Sin brings that darkness into the heart of a person - when we walk in the light, the darkness that comes along has to flee. If we choose to turn from the light, because we desire sin more than God, then we are setting ourselves up for being led completely away from God.

1Jo 2:1-6
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
 
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#20
Well, we can become a LOT WORSE than what Moses did. Say, for instance, worship a golden calf - look to something else for salvation(deliverance). That is what the children of Israel did - who then had their names blotted out of the book, unlike Moses.

I think you are still not distinguishing between a 'sin' we commit, and a continuation in sin. Saul, that is one tuff case there. It could lead off into a whole other discussion. We could suffice to say that he had the Spirit of God taken from Him after he turned from God - where as the sins that David committed did not result in the Spirit of God being taken from him. There is a difference we can clearly see.

Believers are under the law of love.

Gal 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


That is not to say we derive our standing with God based on this law, but we are not 'lawless'. There are dire warnings for thinking such things, and those who live that way are not stable.

2Pe 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.


In Christ the law is fulfilled, because when we are walking in the light with Him, we love like He does, and the sin(s) that do happen are covered in His blood. When we step out of the light, walking in darkness, there is no covering for our sin.

The people who walk in darkness do so because they choose to. Sin brings that darkness into the heart of a person - when we walk in the light, the darkness that comes along has to flee. If we choose to turn from the light, because we desire sin more than God, then we are setting ourselves up for being led completely away from God.

1Jo 2:1-6
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
To me you continue mixing the knowledge of our knowing we are in Christ by our abiding in the same way He walked, with the basis of our kinship which was Jesus' shed blood and our receiving that as the basis of our relationship. That seems to relate to what James said in:
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (Without works do you have a dead faith and are going to hell?)
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (Is he justified before God by his works, and just who punishes them for not abiding and remaining faithful?)

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
 
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