Chopper
Member
I have researched these verses and what I posted is what our Christian Fathers believed in the early centuries of Jesus' Church.
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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
- Thread starter Eugene
- Start date
I have researched these verses and what I posted is what our Christian Fathers believed in the early centuries of Jesus' Church.
No, what's interesting is that anyone would come to that conclusion. I have NEVER said such a thing. It doesn't even make sense.
Yes, of course. And Jesus only gives the gift of eternal life to saved people. And by the FACT of giving eternal life to them, He said they will never perish. That's eternal security.
If they ever believd in Him, they ARE saved, because He gives eternal life to those who have believed, and He said those He gives eternal life to will never perish. John 5:24, 10:28
Done.
Well, there are NO verses that state that anyone can leave salvation or eternal life.
Eternal security position is right because Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. He of course HAS TO mean once given eternal life, that person will never perish. How could it mean anything else???
Do you agree that those who are given eternal life CANNOT perish? yes or no
If the answer is yes, then quit thinking that one can leave salvation.
If the answer is no, then just know that your answer will be in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said in John 10:28.
If your answer is no, I conclude that the meaning of what Jesus said has not been understood.
Chopper said: ↑
Did Mark ever claim he was saved?
So, not only can a saved person not leave salvation, they can't even demote themselves.
Did Mark ever claim he was saved?
Not true. Everyone has a problem. It's called the sin nature, the one we are all born with.yup. as a young man.. if not for women drinking and gambling, he would not have had a problem..
But just as the prodigal left his father, He certainly did NOT leave the relationship. Only fellowship was broken. The father remained the father, and the son remained the son, even when the silly son wanted a demotion to servant.
So, not only can a saved person not leave salvation, they can't even demote themselves.
Nathan
Member
Christ doesn't "have" the ability, He did it already. You have not shown anything to counter the clear teaching that Jesus took the sin of the world on Himself - not just some.
Secondly, God does have to call a man to Himself - but nowhere do you find He chooses not to do so. In fact, we find the opposite.
Acts 17:30 (ESV) 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Acts 17:31 (ESV) 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
Lastly, if a person so chooses to turn away from Christ, the only means of salvation, then they will no longer have salvation or anything that accompanies it.
2 Peter 2:20 (ESV) 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Peter 2:21 (ESV) 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Nathan
Member
Your not too old Chopper.
I do not hold to the idea of there being more than one type of believer in Christ. I believe the "elect" are called that for the express reason of encouraging them that God loves us so much and we are not an after thought of His plan.
It is also to signify He chose us first - not the other way around. This is vital for deep rooted faith. It means that I did not have to clean myself up before God chose me, He brought me out of the mire - and still has the power to do so today.
This never negates the fact that He does not make us believe, but wants us to enough to give us every reason to believe. If a person does not believe in Christ as their Savior, or chooses to stop believing He saved them from slavery and return to it, then it is not Him denying us - it's us denying Him.
The fact remains, we cannot continue in sin once we have come to believe in Him. For if we do, then we are denying the precious blood He shed for us in order that we might be free.
1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Nathan
Member
My post:
Your response:
Now your saying you didn't say what you posted?
Your response:
Now your saying you didn't say what you posted?
Chopper
Member
I would suggest that you two do an in depth study into Christ's Elect Bride. You can start in Ephesians....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
The Elect Bride is promised eternal security. All others must....Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it."
Chopper
Member
Your not too old Chopper.
I do not hold to the idea of there being more than one type of believer in Christ. I believe the "elect" are called that for the express reason of encouraging them that God loves us so much and we are not an after thought of His plan.
It is also to signify He chose us first - not the other way around. This is vital for deep rooted faith. It means that I did not have to clean myself up before God chose me, He brought me out of the mire - and still has the power to do so today.
This never negates the fact that He does not make us believe, but wants us to enough to give us every reason to believe. If a person does not believe in Christ as their Savior, or chooses to stop believing He saved them from slavery and return to it, then it is not Him denying us - it's us denying Him.
The fact remains, we cannot continue in sin once we have come to believe in Him. For if we do, then we are denying the precious blood He shed for us in order that we might be free.
1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
That's to bad that you...."I do not hold to the idea of there being more than one type of believer in Christ." Because there are two! The Elect and those who come to Christ under the "General Call of the Gospel".
Nathan
Member
I've never found the distinction Chopper. Never seen where that is taught in the NT. When I have looked, all I found is a very distinct and clear message that all believers are called the same way and are on the same level as each other. All are elect, all are called through the Gospel.
Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Romans 2:11 (ESV)
For God shows no partiality.
If there are two types of believers, then that means God is showing partiality correct?
Some might say it's His choice to do so, but would God do something He says He will not do?
The same call is to all man. Believe in God. Only one Gospel, and through it only one call.
Galatians 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Chopper
Member
Nathan. Look at this....
Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Rom 9:9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,"
Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Rom 9:9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,"
Cygnus
Member
What you are saying is that the early fathers believed those mentioned in Heb 6 lost their salvation ... to never be able to gain it back?
Cygnus
Member
So, you are a universalist....if Cjrist took all the sin then everyone goes to heaven.
He calls His sheep and His sheep hear him.
Yes, the world will be judged......how does that support your claims?
Only for those that never had salvation and choose to turn away.
If you deny Christ..it doesn't get any better than that.
Cygnus
Member
Chopper, are you saying there are the elect...choosen before the foundation of the world to be saved....and a second group who are not of the elect who get saved...and this group of saved non-elect have the ability to lose their salvation?
If so we should open a thread to discuss this.
Chopper
Member
Correct. They came to Christ, but the defected back to the Law and their religious roots. John Gill is one of those early Theologians.
Cygnus
Member
I don't know if I can really agree wth what you say is John Gills position....perhaps i have the wrong John Gill...but his commentary seems to differentiate between true believers and others when he wrote ..."and the difference between them, and true believers," or where he wrote "f they shall fall away,.... This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Hebrews 6:9 nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally".....
Gills works can be seen here.
Now, considering I've never studied Gills, you may be correct...but I think he believed in the security of the believer.
This is what I said:
"Yes, He did. Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
This is your comment:
"and He never stated someone who believes in Him could no longer believe in Him"
So, one of 2 possibilities:
1. my response is not related to your comment. iow, my comment is to another comment.
2. I misread your comment.
What i'd like to see is the actual post # where your comment "and He never stated someone who believes in Him could no longer believe in Him" was made. Only then can I determine the context of your comment, and whether my comment was made in reference to that comment or another one.
What is totally false is your comment "and He never stated someone who believes in Him could no longer believe in Him".
Of course one who believes in Him can continue to believe in Him.
In fact, from Jesus' statement in John 10:28, everyone who has been given the gift of eternal life will never perish.
Or, all recipients of eternal life are promised eternal security.
I'd sure love to see some evidence for this idea from Scipture. Having read through the NT monthly for about 15 years, I've seen such an idea. Maybe I've just missed it.
Nathan
Member
Christ died for our sins while we were still in our sins. He sacrificed Himself, being obedient to the Father, for the entire world.
He did this for everyone, and whoever hears this message can be assured God is calling on them to repent from what they believe saves them, and trust that Christ is the only way of salvation.
The Father has placed us in Christ - believe this, do not reject it and throw away your salvation.
Salvation is not based on anything you do, He has done it all. Simply trust in this and know He has saved you. Do not think that there is life in any other. Only Christ has life eternal, and if you will not deny Him, He will not deny you.
If you deny Him, He will deny you. Believe He has saved you apart from anything you could ever possibly do for Him. He saved you because He wants you - He loves you even though you do not know how to love Him.
He died for you, in order that you will believe in Him. Just believe.
He did this for everyone, and whoever hears this message can be assured God is calling on them to repent from what they believe saves them, and trust that Christ is the only way of salvation.
The Father has placed us in Christ - believe this, do not reject it and throw away your salvation.
Salvation is not based on anything you do, He has done it all. Simply trust in this and know He has saved you. Do not think that there is life in any other. Only Christ has life eternal, and if you will not deny Him, He will not deny you.
If you deny Him, He will deny you. Believe He has saved you apart from anything you could ever possibly do for Him. He saved you because He wants you - He loves you even though you do not know how to love Him.
He died for you, in order that you will believe in Him. Just believe.