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We learn in John chapter 1 that in Jesus Christ was life, and that life was the light of men. This light was the true light which LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience. I think we all would agree that every person ever to be born on this earth has a conscience. Because of what we learn in John 1, Christians know this is actually the light of Christ. A Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim all have this same conscience or light of Christ, but may know nothing of its source, or call that source by a different name. So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience†when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?
 
So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience” when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?


C'mon now. If we pay attention, reality will demonstrate to us that consciousness is very subjective and is based on things other than the Christ. When a peron follows their conscience what they are doing is living up to their personal ideals or thoughts of right and wrong as it relates to a given situation.

Equating consciousness with the Christ is a bit of a stretch and appears to be a declaration NOT made by the scriptures.
 
So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience†when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?

No, I'm afraid they aren't. Exodus 20:3 clearly states "You shall have no other gods before me." and this is re-affirmed in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 8:4b "There is no God but one." We are held responsible for the information given to us and any study of the other gods you mention would show that they are not the same, so if a person who has not yet "accepted the New Testament" (by which I assume you mean accepted Christ) is worshiping these other gods they are not Christians and according to scripture are not saved. It may be that as you say "The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience", but that doesn't make it true. Scripture is what is truth and scripture doesn't say this at all.

Now if you are talking about someone who has truly never heard the true gospel and not just chose to ignore it or reject it, well, we really aren't told by God what will happen to them. We just have to trust God to do the right thing in a case like this I guess.
 
We learn in John chapter 1 that in Jesus Christ was life, and that life was the light of men. This light was the true light which LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience. I think we all would agree that every person ever to be born on this earth has a conscience. Because of what we learn in John 1, Christians know this is actually the light of Christ. A Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim all have this same conscience or light of Christ, but may know nothing of its source, or call that source by a different name. So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience†when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?
The light of Christ is not conscience. That make John out to be saying that no one had a conscience before Jesus came. What is clear is that John is saying that Jesus himself is the light.
 
We learn in John chapter 1 that in Jesus Christ was life, and that life was the light of men. This light was the true light which LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience. I think we all would agree that every person ever to be born on this earth has a conscience. Because of what we learn in John 1, Christians know this is actually the light of Christ. A Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim all have this same conscience or light of Christ, but may know nothing of its source, or call that source by a different name. So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience†when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?
The light of Christ is not conscience. That make John out to be saying that no one had a conscience before Jesus came. What is clear is that John is saying that Jesus himself is the light.

Conscience can be understood in a different way. God initiates human relationship with Him even before a man is aware that he needs or wants one. It's called prevenient grace.

Yes, I'm an Arminian.

Prevenient grace is grace that God gives to begin the process of drawing a person to Himself. Its purpose is to prepare the heart of the non believer to respond to the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the sinful nature, no person seeks after God on his own. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, shows him his need for the Savior, and urges the person to repent. Prevenient grace is universal, given to all. It is resistible - a person can spurn it to his own detriment. It works in combination with the hearing of the Word. It shows the non-believer that he has a further need for salvation. It results in saving grace when a person positively responds and perseveres in faith.
 
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C'mon now. If we pay attention, reality will demonstrate to us that consciousness is very subjective and is based on things other than the Christ. When a peron follows their conscience what they are doing is living up to their personal ideals or thoughts of right and wrong as it relates to a given situation.

Equating consciousness with the Christ is a bit of a stretch and appears to be a declaration NOT made by the scriptures.
But doesn’t the light from Christ which lighteth every man have some influence one’s conscience? Could not this pure light be considered the core essence of the conscience of every human?
 
No, I'm afraid they aren't. Exodus 20:3 clearly states "You shall have no other gods before me." and this is re-affirmed in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 8:4b "There is no God but one."
My question was referring to those not yet introduced to the Bible as Christians know it. These verses you are quoting are only directed to those in the know of the God of Israel, who are the ones to be held accountable for responding to these commandments. And my proposition does not contradict the idea of there being only one God. I am only saying that if a person obeys the light they are born with, it is actually Christ they are obeying, which only emphasizes the idea of only one God.

We are held responsible for the information given to us and any study of the other gods you mention would show that they are not the same, so if a person who has not yet "accepted the New Testament" (by which I assume you mean accepted Christ) is worshiping these other gods they are not Christians and according to scripture are not saved.
I was not actually talking about salvation. Only that by following the light within that does come from Christ they may be considered as following that portion of Christ’s gospel they are aware of, even though they wouldn’t identify it as coming from Christ, since they are not aware of Christ.

It may be that as you say "The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience", but that doesn't make it true. Scripture is what is truth and scripture doesn't say this at all.
I guess it is not so important whether we call it our conscience or not, but don’t you agree that every non-Christian is influenced by the light of Christ?
 
The light of Christ is not conscience. That make John out to be saying that no one had a conscience before Jesus came. What is clear is that John is saying that Jesus himself is the light.
Whether you call it conscience or just the Light of Christ, would you agree that all non-Christians are influenced by Christ without realizing the source?
 
Conscience can be understood in a different way. God initiates human relationship with Him even before a man is aware that he needs or wants one. It's called prevenient grace.

Yes, I'm an Arminian.

Prevenient grace is grace that God gives to begin the process of drawing a person to Himself. Its purpose is to prepare the heart of the non believer to respond to the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the sinful nature, no person seeks after God on his own. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, shows him his need for the Savior, and urges the person to repent. Prevenient grace is universal, given to all. It is resistible - a person can spurn it to his own detriment. It works in combination with the hearing of the Word. It shows the non-believer that he has a further need for salvation. It results in saving grace when a person positively responds and perseveres in faith.
I would have to agree with this idea. But how do you explain the person who is never quite reached by the Christian message? Why do you think prevenient grace failed to lead that person to their savior in this life?
 
I would have to agree with this idea. But how do you explain the person who is never quite reached by the Christian message? Why do you think prevenient grace failed to lead that person to their savior in this life?[/quote]


I believe that because I also believe we have free will. We can choose to harden our hearts and reject God, many do. This Wesleyan understanding of "prevenient grace" is not universally accepted in other denominations. Calvinists, for instance, believe in an "electing grace" which cannot be resisted. Not an exact corollary, but maybe you can understand what I mean.
 
Whether you call it conscience or just the Light of Christ, would you agree that all non-Christians are influenced by Christ without realizing the source?
No. Again, conscience is not the light of Christ.
 
Making the statement as truth that the Light of Jesus is our conscience is extremely opinionated.
Most Christians I have ever met do not even consider such a thing.
We are the creation, our conscience is part of our creation, the Light of Jesus is not part of the creation.

Anyone making such a statement as truth is actually very far from the truth.
 
Making the statement as truth that the Light of Jesus is our conscience is extremely opinionated.
Most Christians I have ever met do not even consider such a thing.
We are the creation, our conscience is part of our creation, the Light of Jesus is not part of the creation.

Anyone making such a statement as truth is actually very far from the truth.
Okay. Fine. I am okay with the fact that you do not believe that the light of Christ is the same as or a part of our conscience. How then, in your opinion, does the light of Christ spoken of in John 1 influence us?
 
I believe that Jesus is the Light of the world and in verses 9-13 John points that out.
So it is by conscience and reason that we can see the Light of the world as being Jesus.

Other religions can accept Jesus as "a god", such as Hindus, and then put him on a shelf next to their other 300 million gods.
Muslims have absolute denial of Christ.
Buddhist gods are totally powerless.
Other religions cannot continue with their worship of gods and still receive the light of Jesus.
 
I believe that Jesus is the Light of the world and in verses 9-13 John points that out.
So it is by conscience and reason that we can see the Light of the world as being Jesus.
Yes, but it says in verse 9 that this light, lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This is obvious to me to be saying that it influences, in some way, every man. How do you believe all men experience that influence if not as their conscience?
 
Yes, but it says in verse 9 that this light, lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This is obvious to me to be saying that it influences, in some way, every man. How do you believe all men experience that influence if not as their conscience?
I am concerned that this thread and the OP is a promotion for Mormonism.

The thread is surely contrary to Scripture

Zephaniah 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am [Elohim], and there is none beside me:


This thread is also running to the letter and spirit of the First Commandment

Deuteronomy 5: 6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.​
 
I am concerned that this thread and the OP is a promotion for Mormonism.

Permit me to explain further using some things that many may not know about Mormonism

Mormonism is polytheistic at heart, and the opening of the discussion is a back-door establishment of Mormonism to be "just like Christianity". that is why many Mormons want to try to tell you things that "everything that the Bible says about Jesus Christ can be found in the BoM". That is true, as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough.

What they do not tell you is that the jesus christ, which they believe in is a modalistic jesus. He is a human who "obeyed the Father so much", that god the father exalted him into godhood. And just like what happened to jesus, so also being exalted into god hood may happen to "worthy Mormons"

Mormon Research Ministry has a good and accurate article about this HERE. Below is a snippet:.

Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works ,[there are %: the KJV Bible, BoM.Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants and the Book of
Abraham] an expression that precisely defines the LDS teaching that men can become Gods was coined by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God.
So what the poster is attempting to do in this thread, and the thread on deification is to have the camel succeed in getting his nose under the tent during a sand storm. If that is permitted, soon the whole camel will be in the tent, and the Bedouin will not have a place for himself to ride out the sand storm.

So while they may say some things about Jesus Christ, and hijack the Christian meanings to make an entirely different jesus than is in the Bible. The jesus they teach about is a modalistic jesus, and this was soundly condemned bt Tertullian c. 213 and by Dionysius, then Bishop of Rome in 282. (The usage of the term "Pope" is anachronistic here.) The term, "Modalism" means that jesus allegedly had different modes of living. Modalism is also called "Sabellianism, after the originator of the idea, Sabellius.

So now that the background is established, the method used to ensnare the Bible-illiterate Christians is to walk down the primrose lane with the Mormon falsely claiming (in reality a lie) that "Mormons are really no different than Christians". Then the unsuspecting Christian responds with, "Gee I guess that Mormons are just like Christians, and the Mormon missionary then sets the hook as a fisherman does when casting a fly to a hungry trout.

That is why the Christian can NEVER state to any Mormon that any part of Christianity is the same as what Mormons teach. Through the usage of "convertible language" the skilled Mormon apologist will use Christian words to lull the Christian into a stupor, and when the Christian is vulnerable, the Mormon will interject the Mormon meanings into those Christian terms, and the Christian is then placed into a false dilemma, designed for him to renounce Christianity, pray that he gets a "burning bosom" which is supposed to validate the truth of Mormonism.

That is why this thread and the other are "camel noses under the tent of Christianity". Mormons are well-trained in Missionary Training School in Provo Utah, and it is my guess that Prove all Things may be a faculty member due to his demeanor, and traps-laying.

Therefore, the purposes of this post, and the previous is to expose the methodology and the "harmless front" that is produced.

I would have posted this privately to the mods, but I thought that more would see it if I posted it openly.
 
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