Other gods

[Free]

when did the people of Israel not "die like men?

\

They always have died like men and that's actually the point. Once again it comes down to context:

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (ESV)

Notice what God says in verse 6--'"You are gods."' He calls them gods because they are his representatives, his judges. But they have been abusing their authority and were "[judging] unjustly and show[ing] partiality to the wicked" (vs 2). In verse 7, God is simply reminding them that despite his having called them "gods, sons of the Most High," they are still men and not immortal.

 

[atpollard]

Are these "other gods" actual living beings with their own inherent power?

Is a spirit "living"? ... The Devil and his fallen angels are actual beings.
[assuming this discussion was open to all and not just an attempt to make a specific point with 'smaller']

So, with the several passages I have given where God himself says that he knows of no other god, that there is no other god, we have four choices, according to you and jaybird:
1. God lied.
2. God was ignorant.
3. The writers of those passages lied.
4. The writers of those passages misunderstood.
Which is it?

5. "God" is not equivalent to "god" and ancient Hebrew and Greek did not follow the modern English rules of capitalization so something was lost in the translation. Thus both God and the writers told the truth. There is no other God, there are false gods (man made idols), there are 'god' metaphors to describe created beings with some spark of divine characteristics (like human judges or fallen angels).

 

[atpollard]

i agree with paul, gods made with hands are not gods, they are idols. an idol is a representation of something else, that "something else" is what i am talking about. and there is no passage that i am aware of that says the being the idol represent does not exist, it always points back to the idol in itself as being nothing.

You really believe that many gods exist?

My working definition of 'GOD' (all capitals, because I held it even as an atheist as a philosophical concept to argue against) is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, and eternal (uncreated and unable to be destroyed). Anything less is a powerful being, but not a god. What definition do you use for these 'gods'? What differentiates a god from a delusion or a demon?

I think scripture is clearly on the side of Free on this one.

Isa 45:5-6 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

 

[Free]

Is a spirit "living"? ... The Devil and his fallen angels are actual beings.
[assuming this discussion was open to all and not just an attempt to make a specific point with 'smaller']

All discussions are open to all, apart from the one-on-one debates, of course. The devil and his fallen angels are living beings but they are creatures, not divine beings, not gods in the sense that jaybird or smaller would have us believe.

5. "God" is not equivalent to "god" and ancient Hebrew and Greek did not follow the modern English rules of capitalization so something was lost in the translation. Thus both God and the writers told the truth. There is no other God, there are false gods, there are 'god' metaphors to describe created beings with some spark of divine characteristics (like human judges or fallen angels).

Yes. Every "god" is false--either something that man has chosen to worship instead of God, or a being that is God's chosen representative and/or judge, where "god" is merely a title. My point was that from their perspective those are the only four options (that I could think of anyway).

 

[atpollard]

Yes. Every "god" is false--either something that man has chosen to worship instead of God, or a being that is God's chosen representative and/or judge, where "god" is merely a title. My point was that from their perspective those are the only four options (that I could think of anyway).

Yeah, with 9 pages I started at page 9 and read backwards. I had to read quite a ways before I realized that they were actually arguing for other gods being real and this was not just a debate on semantics. (by then I had already responded to your post).

 

[jaybird]

They always have died like men and that's actually the point. Once again it comes down to context:

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (ESV)

Notice what God says in verse 6--'"You are gods."' He calls them gods because they are his representatives, his judges. But they have been abusing their authority and were "[judging] unjustly and show[ing] partiality to the wicked" (vs 2). In verse 7, God is simply reminding them that despite his having called them "gods, sons of the Most High," they are still men and not immortal.

he calls them gods because they are judges so when Jesus refers to the "you are gods" he is really referring to "you are judges"? that makes little sense with what Jesus and the pharisees were discussing
why would men need to be reminded they are men and immortal? how does one forget that?
and why would men be in a divine assembly?
IMO sons of the Most High and sons of man are not the same. sons of the Most High are of the heavenly realm not this one. the sons of the Most High mentioned in Job are not men.

 

[jaybird]

You really believe that many gods exist?

[edited]
Exodus 20
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Free]

IMO sons of the Most High and sons of man are not the same. sons of the Most High are of the heavenly realm not this one. the sons of the Most High mentioned in Job are not men.

Right, that is your opinion. I agree that the sons of God in Job are not men as that is what we can see from the context. The context of Psalms is different and we can see that it is speaking of men.

 

[Free]

i believe what the bible says
Exodus 20
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is a difference in believing what one thinks the Bible says and believing what the Bible actually says. This often happens due to not taking into account all of what the Bible says on a given subject. As I have stated a couple of times, Christianity always has been a monotheistic religion--there is only one God; there never has been any other living, divine being that is a god.

 

[atpollard]

If it is OK with you, I'll address the low hanging fruit and save the OT for later. (The OT gets trickier).

2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So who is "the god of this world [that] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers"?

And you did not answer:

What definition do you use for these 'gods'?
What differentiates a god from a delusion or a demon?

 

[jaybird]

Right, that is your opinion. I agree that the sons of God in Job are not men as that is what we can see from the context. The context of Psalms is different and we can see that it is speaking of men.

why would the bible refer to mankind as son of man, refer to angels as sons of the Most High, and every once in a while refer to men as sons of the Most High?

 

[Free]

why would the bible refer to mankind as son of man, refer to angels as sons of the Most High, and every once in a while refer to men as sons of the Most High?

Why should it not refer to people and angels the way it refers to them? It just refers to things the way it does and we need to be aware so that we can understand it all properly. You've been given much that you haven't responded to regarding understanding the context of some of these uses. Not all words mean the same thing throughout the Bible; context can bring out different nuances in meaning, which is what this entire discussion is actually about.

 

[jaybird]

So who is "the god of this world [that] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers"?
What definition do you use for these 'gods'?
What differentiates a god from a delusion or a demon?

sorry i didnt see those tucked in there.
Satan
lesser heavenly beings. lesser than the Most High, maybe angels
real, not real, real and lesser that the first.

 

[jaybird]

Why should it not refer to people and angels the way it refers to them?

because the scriptures should speak for themselves. we shouldnt have to read them through our theology lens with a pre determined set of mind

 

[Free]

because the scriptures should speak for themselves. we shouldnt have to read them through our theology lens with a pre determined set of mind

The Scriptures do speak for themselves; that is what we have been saying. One must take all that the Bible says on a given subject into account, which you and smaller are not doing. That shows you are doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing--reading the Bible through a "theology lends with a pre-determined set of mind." And of course we all have biases, no one is immune--not you, nor I.

The Bible refers to people and angels the way it refers to them because that is just the way it refers to them. We understand the differences and similarities by understanding the context. Taking things in context is one of the first and most basic things in biblical interpretation. The need for understanding context cannot be overstated.

 

[jaybird]

The Scriptures do speak for themselves; that is what we have been saying. One must take all that the Bible says on a given subject into account, which you and smaller are not doing. That shows you are doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing--reading the Bible through a "theology lends with a pre-determined set of mind." And of course we all have biases, no one is immune--not you, nor I.

i agree on taking all the bible but i dont agree with using one passage to change the meaning of another.

The Bible refers to people and angels the way it refers to them because that is just the way it refers to them. We understand the differences and similarities by understanding the context. Taking things in context is one of the first and most basic things in biblical interpretation. The need for understanding context cannot be overstated.

the bible refers to angel and men differently because they are in fact different. the bible is not going to call men angels when they are men.

 

[jaybird]

here is another passage speaking of the divine assembly, it would seem to indicate this assembly takes place in the skies and not of this world.
Psalm 89 5-7
5
Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
6
For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
7
a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
and awesome above all who are around him?

 

[smaller]

All discussions are open to all, apart from the one-on-one debates, of course. The devil and his fallen angels are living beings but they are creatures, not divine beings, not gods in the sense that jaybird or smaller would have us believe.

Paul delivers the term "god of this world" Free, not us. 2 Cor. 4:4

Yes. Every "god" is false

That's quite beside the point of there actually being 'gods.'

--either something that man has chosen to worship instead of God, or a being that is God's chosen representative and/or judge, where "god" is merely a title. My point was that from their perspective those are the only four options (that I could think of anyway).

Noted prior your little 4 choice construct only reflects what you think you personally see and nothing more. There is more to see.

 

[smaller]

when did the people of Israel not "die like men?

\

They did.

Just because the people of Israel are referred to as "gods", John 10:34, doesn't mean they don't die.

 

[Free]

i agree on taking all the bible but i dont agree with using one passage to change the meaning of another.

You are committing the fallacy of begging the question--you are presuming the very thing you are trying to prove.

the bible refers to angel and men differently because they are in fact different. the bible is not going to call men angels when they are men.

Of course. That all rather goes without saying.